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Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Nick, welcome to the club. Concerning your comment in response to Gich.... ... from the start.
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 2, 2005
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      Hey Nick, welcome to the club. Concerning your comment in response to
      Gich....

      >>>"Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual
      from the start."<<<

      Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional
      Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even
      actually "achieve" it or if it comes by degrees? What specific texts
      do you see reflecting the understanding you express?

      PMCV
    • Nick Lawrance
      From PMCV Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even actually
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 3, 2005
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        From PMCV
        Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional
        Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even
        actually "achieve" it or if it comes by degrees? What specific texts
        do you see reflecting the understanding you express?

        ...........................................
        Thanks for the welcome: From my understanding of Gnosticism the debate whether anyone could achieve Gnosis varied sustanticialy. Some believed that hylics had no possible chance of Gnosis. The psychics were in a better position but would need the help of the pneumatics. Some categories of the Valentians believed these categories were not preordained. Jesus parable of the 'Sower and the Seed'......Gospel of Thomas (9) was used as an example. They believed people could move from one category to another; the lowest category of people were dominated by their carnal nature and act purely to satisfy personal needs and wants without regard to others. Those that remain in the carnal state until death are the seeds that fell along the path. They hear Christ message but do not understand it thus it has no meaning for them. But even those that do achieve some sort of awakening but yet remain in the animate as opposed to the sleep state still have not achieved full knowledge. They hear the message and understand it but are hesitant by their love for this world and love of riches which choke the message. The spiritual person no longer has to rely on the testimony of others for they have done what was needed and realised the truth itself and united with the spiritual element.
         
        >>What specific texts do you see reflecting the understanding you
        express?
        I personally think the 'Gospel of Truth' indicates that it is possible for anyone to achieve gnosis if they put in the work:
         
        "Speak concerning the truth to those who seek it and of knowledge to those who, in their error, have committed sin. Make sure-footed those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Foster men who love. Raise up and awaken those who sleep."
         
        Or again 'Thomas (3)':" .....When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if will not know yourselves, then you dwell in poverty, and you are that poverty. "
         
        Nick
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: pmcvflag
        Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 3:55 AM
        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)


        Hey Nick, welcome to the club. Concerning your comment in response to
        Gich....

        >>>"Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual
        from the start."<<<

        Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional
        Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even
        actually "achieve" it or if it comes by degrees? What specific texts
        do you see reflecting the understanding you express?

        PMCV




      • pmcvflag
        Hey Nick, that is exactly the kind of treatment I had hoped to elicit. I thought I would add a little to your observations with the interesting treatment we
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 3, 2005
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          Hey Nick, that is exactly the kind of treatment I had hoped to
          elicit. I thought I would add a little to your observations with the
          interesting treatment we see in Philip, where it is even more
          explicit in stateing that we can actually move up in the levels....

          "A Gentile does not die, for he has never lived in order that he may
          die. He who has believed in the truth has found life, and this one
          is in danger of dying, for he is alive. Since Christ came, the world
          has been created, the cities adorned, the dead carried out. When we
          were Hebrews, we were orphans and had only our mother, but when we
          became Christians, we had both father and mother."

          In dealing with the sort of code lingo, I want to anticipate a
          question from Gich on this one (as well as anyone else here who may
          not be familiar with this). Here is the code for this passage...

          Gentile = Hylic
          Hebrew = Psychic
          Christian = Pneumatic.

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Lawrance"
          > ...........................................
          > Thanks for the welcome: From my understanding of Gnosticism the
          debate whether anyone could achieve Gnosis varied sustanticialy.
          Some believed that hylics had no possible chance of Gnosis. The
          psychics were in a better position but would need the help of the
          pneumatics. Some categories of the Valentians believed these
          categories were not preordained. Jesus parable of the 'Sower and the
          Seed'......Gospel of Thomas (9) was used as an example. They
          believed people could move from one category to another; the lowest
          category of people were dominated by their carnal nature and act
          purely to satisfy personal needs and wants without regard to others.
          Those that remain in the carnal state until death are the seeds that
          fell along the path. They hear Christ message but do not understand
          it thus it has no meaning for them. But even those that do achieve
          some sort of awakening but yet remain in the animate as opposed to
          the sleep state still have not achieved full knowledge. They hear
          the message and understand it but are hesitant by their love for
          this world and love of riches which choke the message. The spiritual
          person no longer has to rely on the testimony of others for they
          have done what was needed and realised the truth itself and united
          with the spiritual element.
          >
          > >>What specific texts do you see reflecting the understanding you
          express?
          >
          > I personally think the 'Gospel of Truth' indicates that it is
          possible for anyone to achieve gnosis if they put in the work:
          >
          > "Speak concerning the truth to those who seek it and of knowledge
          to those who, in their error, have committed sin. Make sure-footed
          those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish
          the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Foster men who
          love. Raise up and awaken those who sleep."
          >
          > Or again 'Thomas (3)':" .....When you know yourselves, then you
          will become known, and you will know that you are the sons of the
          living Father. But if will not know yourselves, then you dwell in
          poverty, and you are that poverty. "
          >
          > Nick
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