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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)

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  • Nick Lawrance
    From Gich Where does GNOSIS come into this? ............... Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual from the start. Nick ... From:
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 1, 2005
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      From Gich
      Where does GNOSIS come into this?
      ...............
      Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual from the start.
      Nick


      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:40 AM
      Subject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)


      Hey PMCV

      SALVATION in gnosticism.

      Thanks for some very useful comments on this topic. Could I attempt to sum
      them up as follows:

      (1) Materialists - they die.

      (2) Psychics - they MAY get another chance.

      (3) Spirituals - they meld back into the Pleroma,....

      Where does GNOSIS come into this?

      Gich







      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "pmcvflag" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:38 AM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (and the source)


      >
      >
      > Ok, Gich......
      >
      >>>>"Back to the present. It might help if I outline my thoughts on
      > the "inner spark" and the TWIN. We haven't discussed this in depth
      > but I have found the idea of a TWIN or CONSORT (acting as some sort
      > of mirror of ourselves) very useful in trying to get to grips with
      > gnostic cosmology and the esoteric gnosis. It seems to me that a
      > useful way of conceptualising this is to think of MAN having
      > an "inner spark" and the TWIN having an "outer spark". These are
      > only "names"; not necessarily physically "inside" or "outside" of
      > anything; in fact to avoid the "inner/ outer" confusion it would
      > probably be better to call them the "man spark" and the "twin
      > spark"."<<<
      >
      > I think you may be right that we are a little closer to being on the
      > same page in that you seem to recognize that while the "inner"
      > and "outer" are important contextual tools, as such they cannot be
      > strictly and conclusively seperated in the other context.
      >
      > Just remember, no matter what context, you may want to be careful
      > with your "man spark".
      >
      >>>>"We can think of both MAN and the TWIN as dualities and I find
      > the following diagram a useful aid to conception:
      >
      > [1] (Man, "inner spark")<<<------"link"------>>>(Twin, "outer
      > spark").
      >
      > I think of the "link" rather like a "communications channel" between
      > the inner and outer sparks. Man is born ignorant of his true nature
      > and, in this state, the communication is one-way: the Twin knows
      > about the Man, but the Man does not know the Twin. However, after
      > Man receives the esoteric gnosis the communication becomes two-way
      > and Man gets to know the Twin; he gets to know his true nature and
      > the nature of the spiritual realm (the pleroma)."<<<
      >
      > This depends on what you are calling the "Man" ("person", if we wish
      > to be PC)... the body? the mind? Remember, Gnostics consider the
      > person to be three parts, not two. Where are you trying to draw the
      > link? I'll bring that up again with your next chart.
      >
      >>>>"Your words "we are a sort of twin to our spiritual consort" seem
      > to mirror my thoughts above and diagram [1] quite well.
      >
      > So, you are stating that WE are the entity "not of this world" that
      > is involved in our personal receipt of the esoteric gnosis."<<<
      >
      > Hmmm, sort of, in that for the Gnostics of old the Logos and the
      > Sophia are manifest in our existance and in our initiation. Where
      > the Sophia is equated with the soul, the Logos is equated with the
      > spirit.
      >
      >>>>"I have been thinking of Man as a duality something like:
      >
      > [2] [(body, (mind, ignorance), soul) || ("inner spark")]
      >
      > and the "not of this world" part of Man is the "inner spark".
      > Whether this "spark" is physically inside or outside of the body (or
      > both) does not matter."<<<
      >
      > One of the big differences between Gnostics and modern Christians is
      > the fact that modern Christians are supposed to think of the human
      > as a duality. Gnostics, on the other hand, did not. Instead the
      > human had THREE parts....
      >
      > Body, Mind, Spirit.
      >
      > The mind (not to be confused with the intellect) was equated with
      > the "soul", and the spirit with the infinite Pleroma.
      >
      >>>>"After receipt of the esoteric gnosis the duality changes to
      > something like:
      >
      > [3] [(body) || (mind, gnosis) <---awareness---> (soul, "inner
      > spark")].
      >
      > The "not of this world" part of Man is now the pair (soul, "inner
      > spark")and Man, through his "mind" (now equipped with gnosis),
      > becomes aware of his soul, the "inner spark", the Twin (via the
      > link) and the pleroma."<<<
      >
      > It is not something we can categorically state to be Gnostic belief,
      > that every person has this "Consort".... OR... that it is
      > necessarily simply a matter of recognizing that we do have it
      > (perhaps it would be something that we actually sort of create, or
      > incubate). Although this does seem to be the basic Valentinian
      > outline, not all the texts deal with it in the same way.
      >
      >>>>"(Q1) In the receipt of the esoteric gnosis do you see any
      > channelling of this gnosis to Man from the Twin?"<<<
      >
      > Well, not in the way that New Agers "channel" beings from Atlantis.
      > The mind talks to the body, the spirit talks to the mind... the
      > Consort is the spiritual spark, so in that way the Gnostics
      > certainly believed that the Consort is instrumental in bestowing
      > Gnosis.
      >
      >>>>"(Q2) In the receipt of the esoteric gnosis do you see any
      > channelling of this gnosis to Man from the pleroma?"<<<
      >
      > The Consort is IN the Pleroma, so there is no difference between
      > your q1 and q2.
      >
      >>>>"(Q3) Do the gnostics believe, literally, in the existence of the
      > pleroma, a place where "the saved" enjoy everlasting life after
      > their earthly death?"<<<
      >
      > Different texts seem to deal with this in different ways, but
      > generally speaking... no... there is no "Heaven" where Gnostics
      > believed they floated on clouds and played harps in praise of God
      > for all eternity. Instead, in release from linear existance there
      > would be no conciousness as we know it. Again, there are no hard
      > fast rules here as to how Gnostics dealt with the subject, but the
      > general rule of thumb looked something like this...
      >
      > You are what you identify with (not what you think you identify
      > with, or we could all simply say "spirit"). If your primary identity
      > is with the body, then you die with that body.... the end. If you
      > identify with the soul, then depending on the group you either die
      > with the body, or perhaps you are recycled without identity, or
      > perhaps you go to a sort of temporary little heaven (or hell) and
      > get another chance to try again. If you identify with the spirit
      > then you meld back into the Pleroma, which then melds back into the
      > Second Father, which then disappears into the First Father.
      >
      >>>>"I'm leaving your questions to me for the time being. This post
      > is long enough already! :)"<<<
      >
      > That is ok, most of them where rhetorical questions meant to get you
      > to consider your own questions in a slightly different way.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >





    • pmcvflag
      Hey Nick, welcome to the club. Concerning your comment in response to Gich.... ... from the start.
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 2, 2005
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        Hey Nick, welcome to the club. Concerning your comment in response to
        Gich....

        >>>"Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual
        from the start."<<<

        Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional
        Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even
        actually "achieve" it or if it comes by degrees? What specific texts
        do you see reflecting the understanding you express?

        PMCV
      • Nick Lawrance
        From PMCV Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even actually
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 3, 2005
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          From PMCV
          Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional
          Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even
          actually "achieve" it or if it comes by degrees? What specific texts
          do you see reflecting the understanding you express?

          ...........................................
          Thanks for the welcome: From my understanding of Gnosticism the debate whether anyone could achieve Gnosis varied sustanticialy. Some believed that hylics had no possible chance of Gnosis. The psychics were in a better position but would need the help of the pneumatics. Some categories of the Valentians believed these categories were not preordained. Jesus parable of the 'Sower and the Seed'......Gospel of Thomas (9) was used as an example. They believed people could move from one category to another; the lowest category of people were dominated by their carnal nature and act purely to satisfy personal needs and wants without regard to others. Those that remain in the carnal state until death are the seeds that fell along the path. They hear Christ message but do not understand it thus it has no meaning for them. But even those that do achieve some sort of awakening but yet remain in the animate as opposed to the sleep state still have not achieved full knowledge. They hear the message and understand it but are hesitant by their love for this world and love of riches which choke the message. The spiritual person no longer has to rely on the testimony of others for they have done what was needed and realised the truth itself and united with the spiritual element.
           
          >>What specific texts do you see reflecting the understanding you
          express?
          I personally think the 'Gospel of Truth' indicates that it is possible for anyone to achieve gnosis if they put in the work:
           
          "Speak concerning the truth to those who seek it and of knowledge to those who, in their error, have committed sin. Make sure-footed those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Foster men who love. Raise up and awaken those who sleep."
           
          Or again 'Thomas (3)':" .....When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if will not know yourselves, then you dwell in poverty, and you are that poverty. "
           
          Nick
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: pmcvflag
          Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 3:55 AM
          Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)


          Hey Nick, welcome to the club. Concerning your comment in response to
          Gich....

          >>>"Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual
          from the start."<<<

          Do you have some thoughts as to whether you believe traditional
          Gnostics believe everyone is able to achieve Gnosis... or that we even
          actually "achieve" it or if it comes by degrees? What specific texts
          do you see reflecting the understanding you express?

          PMCV




        • pmcvflag
          Hey Nick, that is exactly the kind of treatment I had hoped to elicit. I thought I would add a little to your observations with the interesting treatment we
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 3, 2005
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            Hey Nick, that is exactly the kind of treatment I had hoped to
            elicit. I thought I would add a little to your observations with the
            interesting treatment we see in Philip, where it is even more
            explicit in stateing that we can actually move up in the levels....

            "A Gentile does not die, for he has never lived in order that he may
            die. He who has believed in the truth has found life, and this one
            is in danger of dying, for he is alive. Since Christ came, the world
            has been created, the cities adorned, the dead carried out. When we
            were Hebrews, we were orphans and had only our mother, but when we
            became Christians, we had both father and mother."

            In dealing with the sort of code lingo, I want to anticipate a
            question from Gich on this one (as well as anyone else here who may
            not be familiar with this). Here is the code for this passage...

            Gentile = Hylic
            Hebrew = Psychic
            Christian = Pneumatic.

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Lawrance"
            > ...........................................
            > Thanks for the welcome: From my understanding of Gnosticism the
            debate whether anyone could achieve Gnosis varied sustanticialy.
            Some believed that hylics had no possible chance of Gnosis. The
            psychics were in a better position but would need the help of the
            pneumatics. Some categories of the Valentians believed these
            categories were not preordained. Jesus parable of the 'Sower and the
            Seed'......Gospel of Thomas (9) was used as an example. They
            believed people could move from one category to another; the lowest
            category of people were dominated by their carnal nature and act
            purely to satisfy personal needs and wants without regard to others.
            Those that remain in the carnal state until death are the seeds that
            fell along the path. They hear Christ message but do not understand
            it thus it has no meaning for them. But even those that do achieve
            some sort of awakening but yet remain in the animate as opposed to
            the sleep state still have not achieved full knowledge. They hear
            the message and understand it but are hesitant by their love for
            this world and love of riches which choke the message. The spiritual
            person no longer has to rely on the testimony of others for they
            have done what was needed and realised the truth itself and united
            with the spiritual element.
            >
            > >>What specific texts do you see reflecting the understanding you
            express?
            >
            > I personally think the 'Gospel of Truth' indicates that it is
            possible for anyone to achieve gnosis if they put in the work:
            >
            > "Speak concerning the truth to those who seek it and of knowledge
            to those who, in their error, have committed sin. Make sure-footed
            those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish
            the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Foster men who
            love. Raise up and awaken those who sleep."
            >
            > Or again 'Thomas (3)':" .....When you know yourselves, then you
            will become known, and you will know that you are the sons of the
            living Father. But if will not know yourselves, then you dwell in
            poverty, and you are that poverty. "
            >
            > Nick
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