Re: God: what's in a name?
- hi PMCV... let's just put this whole thing to bed. in fact, my wife insists onit and i like to let her think she's the boss. she thinks we're both ridiculousbecause neither one of understands the other's point of view, and i'mconvinced she's right: you misunderstand me and i misunderstand you.just one of things.your friend,Crispin Sainte IIIPS Hello, PMCV, I'm Crispin's wife and I AM the boss. You guys arepitiful. These exchanges would be hysterical if it wasn't for the shamefullyobvious fact that you're both too damn self-preoccupied to listen to eachother. I feel like I understand you both. Perfectly well. Why you guys don'tget it is a mystery to me, and I'm especially frustrated with Crispinbecause I know he can do much, much better.So, BOYS, the thing you're groping with in the darkness is an elephant.It's not a tree trunk, not a fan, not a snake. It's an elephant!!!Katherine Favier Sainte
- Crispin, you state....
>>>"hi PMCV... let's just put this whole thing to bed. in fact, mywife insists onit and i like to let her think she's the boss. she
thinks we're both ridiculous because neither one of understands the
other's point of view, and i'm convinced she's right: you
misunderstand me and i misunderstand you. just one of things."<<<
Hmmm, perhaps, but I am less convinced. Let me explain after the
>>>"PS Hello, PMCV, I'm Crispin's wife and I AM the boss. You guysare pitiful. These exchanges would be hysterical if it wasn't for
the shamefully obvious fact that you're both too damn self-
preoccupied to listen to each other. I feel like I understand you
both. Perfectly well. Why you guys don't get it is a mystery to me,
and I'm especially frustrated with Crispin because I know he can do
much, much better."<<<
It is not shameful to misunderstand each other. On the contrary, we
all start without understanding... it is the essence of "Gnosis" to
overcome this state. Perhaps, Ms Katherine, you do understand us
both. Perhaps Mr Crispin and I do misunderstand each other. But Mr
Crispin is hopefully not here to understand MY point of view, he is
hopefully here to better understand Gnosticism. It is a rewarding
venture to hash out misunderstandings, but I am not so sure that
there really is so much a misunderstanding.
To put that another way, let me point out that it is not
preocupation with myself that may be in the way, but preoccupation
with the subject matter to which this group is dedicated. It is,
after all, my job here as a mod. Beyond that, there simply is
nothing to "get". It is not ME that Mr Crispin (or you in this case)
need to understand, it is the subject of Philosophy to which we are
dedicated to gaining better understanding of in this group.
Likewise, I don't need to understand Mr Crispin.... only to know
that he is sincere in wanting to understand the subject in and of
itself (whether or not he empathises with or hates Gnosticism is no
concern of mine. He could be here as an evangelist trying to
understand what he is against for all I care.... as long as he
truely wants to understand it).
My understanding is that Cripin is self admitedly new to the
subject. Is it much of a leap that perhaps he has some
preconceptions of the subject that may be inaccurate? Or that
perhaps the ideas look initially differently to him than they really
>>>"So, BOYS, the thing you're groping with in the darkness is anelephant. It's not a tree trunk, not a fan, not a snake. It's an
With all due respect, Ms Katherine, this is not an elephant, it is
an historical belief system... one that I know pretty well, and from
many angles (including, but not limited to, some small level of
academic training in the subject). I don't mean that to sound puffed
up, but neither would I be honest if I pretended that I have not
dedicated some time to the subject at hand. I am not asking Crispin
to agree with the beliefs of Gnosticism, only to understand them
without assuming much right in the beginning.
There is no disagreement here, nor anything to "put to bed". Either
Crispin is sincere in his desire to understand historical Gnosticism
in it's own context (in which case he is in the right place), or he
is looking for something else (which is a different story).
I only wish to provide an accurate picture of what Gnostic beliefs
looked like..... anyone who is looking for anything other than this
may have misunderstood what this group is about.
But one can't understand this historical system if they are making
judgement calls before they get the facts.
My suggesting then, would be... instead of putting this to bed, as
it were, to step back for a moment and remove preconceptions. Then,
try to understand even if it is not what you personally believe or
ever wish to believe. Just try to understand it for what it is.