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Manacheans, wasRe: Gnostic claims to Paul of Tarsus for PMCV

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  • lady_caritas
    Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading your information. Also, I ll correct and repost the first and last links from your reply
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
      Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading
      your information.

      Also, I'll correct and repost the first and last links from your
      reply that I couldn't initially access:

      http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

      http://hnn.us/articles/7202.html

      Thanks again!


      Cari


      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
      wrote:
      > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
      references it
      > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
      >
      > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
      >
      > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard
      that
      > either.
      >
      > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
      unfortunately
      > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
      > Manicheanism, says that:
      >
      > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on
      the
      > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
      Mani".
      >
      > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
      >
      > This article,
      >
      > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
      > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
      >
      > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
      >
      > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
      Asia,
      > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
      Uigur Turks
      > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
      >
      > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
      to be
      > reasonably authoritative.
      >
      > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
      Manichaeism
      > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as
      a
      > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
      > century."
      >
      >
      http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism
      /essay.html
      >
      > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
      Road
      > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
      >
      > Another essay states:
      >
      > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
      Light"
      > until the 17th century e.v."
      >
      > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
      >
      > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
      appended at
      > the bottom)
      >
      > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
      Iranians
      > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
      eager to
      > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
      >
      > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
      >
      > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
      >
      > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
      > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
      > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
      still
      > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
      > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
      World
      > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
      religion.
      >
      > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
      >
      > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
      >
      > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
      > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
      actually
      > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
      as a
      > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
      that.
      >
      > Other data:
      >
      > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
      direct
      > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
      >
      > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion
      that
      > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
      > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
      widespread,
      > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
      may
      > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
      ever
      > become aware enough of to investigate?
      >
      > Regards,
      > Thomas Leavitt
      >
      > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
      that
      > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
      >
      > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
      >
      > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as
      the
      > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
      Lenin).
      >
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep (like the page
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 7, 2005
        Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou
        angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep
        (like the page concerning Bush's "Manichaeism" *lol*), or if there
        is something more there. It would certainly be an important link,
        and an interesting study.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
        wrote:
        > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
        references it
        > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
        >
        > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
        >
        > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I
        heard that
        > either.
        >
        > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
        unfortunately
        > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
        > Manicheanism, says that:
        >
        > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled
        on the
        > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
        Mani".
        >
        > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
        >
        > This article,
        >
        > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
        > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
        >
        > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
        >
        > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
        Asia,
        > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
        Uigur Turks
        > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
        >
        > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
        to be
        > reasonably authoritative.
        >
        > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
        Manichaeism
        > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed
        as a
        > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
        > century."
        >
        >
        http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeis
        m/essay.html
        >
        > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
        Road
        > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
        >
        > Another essay states:
        >
        > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
        Light"
        > until the 17th century e.v."
        >
        > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
        >
        > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
        appended at
        > the bottom)
        >
        > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
        Iranians
        > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
        eager to
        > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
        >
        > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
        >
        > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
        >
        > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
        > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
        > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
        still
        > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
        > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
        World
        > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
        religion.
        >
        > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
        >
        > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
        >
        > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
        > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
        actually
        > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
        as a
        > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
        that.
        >
        > Other data:
        >
        > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
        direct
        > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
        >
        > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the
        conclusion that
        > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
        > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
        widespread,
        > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
        may
        > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
        ever
        > become aware enough of to investigate?
        >
        > Regards,
        > Thomas Leavitt
        >
        > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
        that
        > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
        >
        > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
        >
        > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani
        as the
        > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
        Lenin).
        >
        > > Hello pmcvflag
        > >
        > > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Hey Mike
        > >>
        > >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts,
        but last
        > >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
        > >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that
        I had
        > >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
        no one
        > >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
        us some
        > >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
        > >
        > > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a
        journal
        > > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
        > > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this,
        just in
        > > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
        > > much of what I heard or read about it.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > --
        > > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
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