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Re: Manacheans, wasRe: Gnostic claims to Paul of Tarsus for PMCV

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  • Mike Leavitt
    Hello pmcvflag ... I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My older
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
      Hello pmcvflag

      On 03/06/05, you wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hey Mike
      >
      > Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
      > last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
      > spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
      > had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
      > no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
      > us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

      I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
      article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
      older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just
      in case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
      much of what I heard or read about it.

      Regards
      --
      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
    • Thomas Leavitt
      Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it surviving up to the present century in the Orient .
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
        Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it
        surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".

        http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv

        Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard that
        either.

        It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which unfortunately
        seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
        Manicheanism, says that:

        Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on the
        Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of Mani".

        ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.

        This article,

        Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
        http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html

        on a Mormon site of all things, says:

        says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central Asia,
        where it was declared the official religion by the king of the Uigur Turks
        in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."

        Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem to be
        reasonably authoritative.

        According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period Manichaeism
        experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as a
        heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
        century."

        http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism/essay.html

        the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk Road
        (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).

        Another essay states:

        "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable Light"
        until the 17th century e.v."

        http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm

        again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is appended at
        the bottom)

        I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the Iranians
        seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very eager to
        claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).

        It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):

        http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html

        The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
        Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
        worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is still
        used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
        special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a World
        Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world religion.

        There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy

        http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm

        claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
        Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether actually
        means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand, as a
        resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know that.

        Other data:

        Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any direct
        relation to the religious tradition of that name.

        ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion that
        there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
        historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very widespread,
        Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what may
        survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has ever
        become aware enough of to investigate?

        Regards,
        Thomas Leavitt

        P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims that
        Bush's worldview is "Manichean".

        http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm

        This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as the
        world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of Lenin).

        > Hello pmcvflag
        >
        > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> Hey Mike
        >>
        >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last
        >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
        >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I had
        >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and no one
        >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give us some
        >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
        >
        > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
        > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
        > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just in
        > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
        > much of what I heard or read about it.
        >
        > Regards
        > --
        > Mike Leavitt ac998@...
      • lady_caritas
        Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading your information. Also, I ll correct and repost the first and last links from your reply
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
          Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading
          your information.

          Also, I'll correct and repost the first and last links from your
          reply that I couldn't initially access:

          http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

          http://hnn.us/articles/7202.html

          Thanks again!


          Cari


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
          wrote:
          > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
          references it
          > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
          >
          > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
          >
          > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard
          that
          > either.
          >
          > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
          unfortunately
          > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
          > Manicheanism, says that:
          >
          > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on
          the
          > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
          Mani".
          >
          > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
          >
          > This article,
          >
          > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
          > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
          >
          > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
          >
          > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
          Asia,
          > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
          Uigur Turks
          > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
          >
          > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
          to be
          > reasonably authoritative.
          >
          > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
          Manichaeism
          > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as
          a
          > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
          > century."
          >
          >
          http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism
          /essay.html
          >
          > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
          Road
          > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
          >
          > Another essay states:
          >
          > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
          Light"
          > until the 17th century e.v."
          >
          > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
          >
          > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
          appended at
          > the bottom)
          >
          > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
          Iranians
          > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
          eager to
          > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
          >
          > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
          >
          > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
          >
          > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
          > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
          > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
          still
          > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
          > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
          World
          > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
          religion.
          >
          > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
          >
          > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
          >
          > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
          > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
          actually
          > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
          as a
          > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
          that.
          >
          > Other data:
          >
          > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
          direct
          > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
          >
          > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion
          that
          > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
          > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
          widespread,
          > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
          may
          > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
          ever
          > become aware enough of to investigate?
          >
          > Regards,
          > Thomas Leavitt
          >
          > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
          that
          > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
          >
          > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
          >
          > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as
          the
          > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
          Lenin).
          >
        • pmcvflag
          Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep (like the page
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 7, 2005
            Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou
            angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep
            (like the page concerning Bush's "Manichaeism" *lol*), or if there
            is something more there. It would certainly be an important link,
            and an interesting study.

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
            wrote:
            > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
            references it
            > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
            >
            > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
            >
            > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I
            heard that
            > either.
            >
            > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
            unfortunately
            > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
            > Manicheanism, says that:
            >
            > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled
            on the
            > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
            Mani".
            >
            > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
            >
            > This article,
            >
            > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
            > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
            >
            > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
            >
            > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
            Asia,
            > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
            Uigur Turks
            > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
            >
            > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
            to be
            > reasonably authoritative.
            >
            > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
            Manichaeism
            > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed
            as a
            > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
            > century."
            >
            >
            http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeis
            m/essay.html
            >
            > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
            Road
            > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
            >
            > Another essay states:
            >
            > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
            Light"
            > until the 17th century e.v."
            >
            > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
            >
            > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
            appended at
            > the bottom)
            >
            > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
            Iranians
            > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
            eager to
            > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
            >
            > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
            >
            > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
            >
            > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
            > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
            > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
            still
            > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
            > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
            World
            > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
            religion.
            >
            > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
            >
            > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
            >
            > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
            > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
            actually
            > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
            as a
            > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
            that.
            >
            > Other data:
            >
            > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
            direct
            > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
            >
            > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the
            conclusion that
            > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
            > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
            widespread,
            > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
            may
            > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
            ever
            > become aware enough of to investigate?
            >
            > Regards,
            > Thomas Leavitt
            >
            > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
            that
            > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
            >
            > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
            >
            > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani
            as the
            > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
            Lenin).
            >
            > > Hello pmcvflag
            > >
            > > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Hey Mike
            > >>
            > >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts,
            but last
            > >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
            > >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that
            I had
            > >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
            no one
            > >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
            us some
            > >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
            > >
            > > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a
            journal
            > > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
            > > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this,
            just in
            > > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
            > > much of what I heard or read about it.
            > >
            > > Regards
            > > --
            > > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
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