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Manacheans, wasRe: Gnostic claims to Paul of Tarsus for PMCV

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Mike Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last spotted there. If you
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
      Hey Mike

      Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
      last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
      spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
      had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
      no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
      us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
      > Hello pmcvflag
      >
      > On 03/04/05, you wrote:
      >
      > > There is a new movement attempting to recreate Manichaeism
      (probably
      > > a few). However, Manichaeans aren't technically Gnostic.
      > >
      > > Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and
      let
      > > other people jump in.
      > >
      > > PMCV
      >
      > Actually I have read somewhere that there are actual Manacheans
      still
      > active in the Malabar part of India, original ones, not neos. How
      > true to the original tradition they are at this point and how
      > influenced by Hinduism (even the Packistani Sufis are), I don't
      know.
      >
      > Regards
      > --
      > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
    • Mike Leavitt
      Hello pmcvflag ... I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My older
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
        Hello pmcvflag

        On 03/06/05, you wrote:

        >
        >
        > Hey Mike
        >
        > Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
        > last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
        > spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
        > had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
        > no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
        > us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

        I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
        article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
        older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just
        in case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
        much of what I heard or read about it.

        Regards
        --
        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
      • Thomas Leavitt
        Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it surviving up to the present century in the Orient .
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
          Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it
          surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".

          http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv

          Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard that
          either.

          It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which unfortunately
          seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
          Manicheanism, says that:

          Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on the
          Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of Mani".

          ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.

          This article,

          Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
          http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html

          on a Mormon site of all things, says:

          says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central Asia,
          where it was declared the official religion by the king of the Uigur Turks
          in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."

          Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem to be
          reasonably authoritative.

          According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period Manichaeism
          experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as a
          heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
          century."

          http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism/essay.html

          the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk Road
          (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).

          Another essay states:

          "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable Light"
          until the 17th century e.v."

          http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm

          again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is appended at
          the bottom)

          I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the Iranians
          seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very eager to
          claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).

          It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):

          http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html

          The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
          Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
          worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is still
          used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
          special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a World
          Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world religion.

          There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy

          http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm

          claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
          Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether actually
          means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand, as a
          resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know that.

          Other data:

          Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any direct
          relation to the religious tradition of that name.

          ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion that
          there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
          historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very widespread,
          Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what may
          survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has ever
          become aware enough of to investigate?

          Regards,
          Thomas Leavitt

          P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims that
          Bush's worldview is "Manichean".

          http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm

          This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as the
          world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of Lenin).

          > Hello pmcvflag
          >
          > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
          >
          >>
          >>
          >> Hey Mike
          >>
          >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last
          >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
          >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I had
          >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and no one
          >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give us some
          >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
          >
          > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
          > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
          > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just in
          > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
          > much of what I heard or read about it.
          >
          > Regards
          > --
          > Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • lady_caritas
          Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading your information. Also, I ll correct and repost the first and last links from your reply
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
            Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading
            your information.

            Also, I'll correct and repost the first and last links from your
            reply that I couldn't initially access:

            http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

            http://hnn.us/articles/7202.html

            Thanks again!


            Cari


            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
            wrote:
            > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
            references it
            > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
            >
            > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
            >
            > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard
            that
            > either.
            >
            > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
            unfortunately
            > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
            > Manicheanism, says that:
            >
            > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on
            the
            > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
            Mani".
            >
            > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
            >
            > This article,
            >
            > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
            > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
            >
            > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
            >
            > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
            Asia,
            > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
            Uigur Turks
            > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
            >
            > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
            to be
            > reasonably authoritative.
            >
            > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
            Manichaeism
            > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as
            a
            > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
            > century."
            >
            >
            http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism
            /essay.html
            >
            > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
            Road
            > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
            >
            > Another essay states:
            >
            > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
            Light"
            > until the 17th century e.v."
            >
            > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
            >
            > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
            appended at
            > the bottom)
            >
            > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
            Iranians
            > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
            eager to
            > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
            >
            > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
            >
            > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
            >
            > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
            > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
            > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
            still
            > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
            > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
            World
            > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
            religion.
            >
            > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
            >
            > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
            >
            > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
            > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
            actually
            > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
            as a
            > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
            that.
            >
            > Other data:
            >
            > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
            direct
            > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
            >
            > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion
            that
            > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
            > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
            widespread,
            > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
            may
            > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
            ever
            > become aware enough of to investigate?
            >
            > Regards,
            > Thomas Leavitt
            >
            > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
            that
            > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
            >
            > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
            >
            > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as
            the
            > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
            Lenin).
            >
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep (like the page
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 7, 2005
              Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou
              angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep
              (like the page concerning Bush's "Manichaeism" *lol*), or if there
              is something more there. It would certainly be an important link,
              and an interesting study.

              PMCV

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
              wrote:
              > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
              references it
              > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
              >
              > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
              >
              > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I
              heard that
              > either.
              >
              > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
              unfortunately
              > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
              > Manicheanism, says that:
              >
              > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled
              on the
              > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
              Mani".
              >
              > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
              >
              > This article,
              >
              > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
              > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
              >
              > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
              >
              > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
              Asia,
              > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
              Uigur Turks
              > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
              >
              > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
              to be
              > reasonably authoritative.
              >
              > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
              Manichaeism
              > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed
              as a
              > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
              > century."
              >
              >
              http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeis
              m/essay.html
              >
              > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
              Road
              > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
              >
              > Another essay states:
              >
              > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
              Light"
              > until the 17th century e.v."
              >
              > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
              >
              > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
              appended at
              > the bottom)
              >
              > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
              Iranians
              > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
              eager to
              > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
              >
              > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
              >
              > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
              >
              > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
              > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
              > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
              still
              > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
              > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
              World
              > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
              religion.
              >
              > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
              >
              > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
              >
              > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
              > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
              actually
              > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
              as a
              > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
              that.
              >
              > Other data:
              >
              > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
              direct
              > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
              >
              > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the
              conclusion that
              > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
              > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
              widespread,
              > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
              may
              > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
              ever
              > become aware enough of to investigate?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Thomas Leavitt
              >
              > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
              that
              > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
              >
              > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
              >
              > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani
              as the
              > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
              Lenin).
              >
              > > Hello pmcvflag
              > >
              > > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Hey Mike
              > >>
              > >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts,
              but last
              > >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
              > >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that
              I had
              > >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
              no one
              > >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
              us some
              > >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
              > >
              > > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a
              journal
              > > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
              > > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this,
              just in
              > > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
              > > much of what I heard or read about it.
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > --
              > > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
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