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Re: Gnostic claims to Paul of Tarsus for PMCV

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  • elmoreb
    As a correction to my last post, the Revised std edition does mention gamaliel and it agrees with the NIV version. I was using a bible/version search and got a
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 4, 2005
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      As a correction to my last post, the Revised std edition does
      mention gamaliel and it agrees with the NIV version. I was using a
      bible/version search and got a little careless :P My apologies.
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Mike Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last spotted there. If you
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
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        Hey Mike

        Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
        last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
        spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
        had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
        no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
        us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
        > Hello pmcvflag
        >
        > On 03/04/05, you wrote:
        >
        > > There is a new movement attempting to recreate Manichaeism
        (probably
        > > a few). However, Manichaeans aren't technically Gnostic.
        > >
        > > Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and
        let
        > > other people jump in.
        > >
        > > PMCV
        >
        > Actually I have read somewhere that there are actual Manacheans
        still
        > active in the Malabar part of India, original ones, not neos. How
        > true to the original tradition they are at this point and how
        > influenced by Hinduism (even the Packistani Sufis are), I don't
        know.
        >
        > Regards
        > --
        > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello pmcvflag ... I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My older
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
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          Hello pmcvflag

          On 03/06/05, you wrote:

          >
          >
          > Hey Mike
          >
          > Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
          > last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
          > spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
          > had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
          > no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
          > us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

          I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
          article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
          older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just
          in case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
          much of what I heard or read about it.

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • Thomas Leavitt
          Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it surviving up to the present century in the Orient .
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
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            Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it
            surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".

            http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv

            Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard that
            either.

            It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which unfortunately
            seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
            Manicheanism, says that:

            Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on the
            Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of Mani".

            ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.

            This article,

            Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
            http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html

            on a Mormon site of all things, says:

            says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central Asia,
            where it was declared the official religion by the king of the Uigur Turks
            in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."

            Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem to be
            reasonably authoritative.

            According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period Manichaeism
            experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as a
            heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
            century."

            http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism/essay.html

            the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk Road
            (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).

            Another essay states:

            "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable Light"
            until the 17th century e.v."

            http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm

            again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is appended at
            the bottom)

            I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the Iranians
            seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very eager to
            claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).

            It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):

            http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html

            The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
            Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
            worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is still
            used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
            special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a World
            Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world religion.

            There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy

            http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm

            claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
            Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether actually
            means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand, as a
            resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know that.

            Other data:

            Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any direct
            relation to the religious tradition of that name.

            ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion that
            there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
            historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very widespread,
            Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what may
            survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has ever
            become aware enough of to investigate?

            Regards,
            Thomas Leavitt

            P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims that
            Bush's worldview is "Manichean".

            http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm

            This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as the
            world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of Lenin).

            > Hello pmcvflag
            >
            > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
            >
            >>
            >>
            >> Hey Mike
            >>
            >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last
            >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
            >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I had
            >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and no one
            >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give us some
            >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
            >
            > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
            > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
            > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just in
            > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
            > much of what I heard or read about it.
            >
            > Regards
            > --
            > Mike Leavitt ac998@...
          • lady_caritas
            Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading your information. Also, I ll correct and repost the first and last links from your reply
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
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              Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading
              your information.

              Also, I'll correct and repost the first and last links from your
              reply that I couldn't initially access:

              http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

              http://hnn.us/articles/7202.html

              Thanks again!


              Cari


              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
              wrote:
              > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
              references it
              > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
              >
              > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
              >
              > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard
              that
              > either.
              >
              > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
              unfortunately
              > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
              > Manicheanism, says that:
              >
              > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on
              the
              > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
              Mani".
              >
              > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
              >
              > This article,
              >
              > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
              > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
              >
              > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
              >
              > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
              Asia,
              > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
              Uigur Turks
              > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
              >
              > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
              to be
              > reasonably authoritative.
              >
              > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
              Manichaeism
              > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as
              a
              > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
              > century."
              >
              >
              http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism
              /essay.html
              >
              > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
              Road
              > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
              >
              > Another essay states:
              >
              > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
              Light"
              > until the 17th century e.v."
              >
              > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
              >
              > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
              appended at
              > the bottom)
              >
              > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
              Iranians
              > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
              eager to
              > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
              >
              > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
              >
              > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
              >
              > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
              > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
              > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
              still
              > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
              > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
              World
              > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
              religion.
              >
              > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
              >
              > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
              >
              > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
              > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
              actually
              > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
              as a
              > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
              that.
              >
              > Other data:
              >
              > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
              direct
              > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
              >
              > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion
              that
              > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
              > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
              widespread,
              > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
              may
              > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
              ever
              > become aware enough of to investigate?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Thomas Leavitt
              >
              > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
              that
              > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
              >
              > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
              >
              > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as
              the
              > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
              Lenin).
              >
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep (like the page
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 7, 2005
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                Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou
                angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep
                (like the page concerning Bush's "Manichaeism" *lol*), or if there
                is something more there. It would certainly be an important link,
                and an interesting study.

                PMCV

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
                wrote:
                > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
                references it
                > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
                >
                > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
                >
                > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I
                heard that
                > either.
                >
                > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
                unfortunately
                > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
                > Manicheanism, says that:
                >
                > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled
                on the
                > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
                Mani".
                >
                > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
                >
                > This article,
                >
                > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
                > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
                >
                > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
                >
                > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
                Asia,
                > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
                Uigur Turks
                > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
                >
                > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
                to be
                > reasonably authoritative.
                >
                > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
                Manichaeism
                > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed
                as a
                > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
                > century."
                >
                >
                http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeis
                m/essay.html
                >
                > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
                Road
                > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
                >
                > Another essay states:
                >
                > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
                Light"
                > until the 17th century e.v."
                >
                > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
                >
                > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
                appended at
                > the bottom)
                >
                > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
                Iranians
                > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
                eager to
                > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
                >
                > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
                >
                > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
                >
                > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
                > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
                > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
                still
                > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
                > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
                World
                > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
                religion.
                >
                > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
                >
                > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
                >
                > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
                > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
                actually
                > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
                as a
                > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
                that.
                >
                > Other data:
                >
                > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
                direct
                > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
                >
                > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the
                conclusion that
                > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
                > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
                widespread,
                > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
                may
                > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
                ever
                > become aware enough of to investigate?
                >
                > Regards,
                > Thomas Leavitt
                >
                > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
                that
                > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
                >
                > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
                >
                > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani
                as the
                > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
                Lenin).
                >
                > > Hello pmcvflag
                > >
                > > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
                > >
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Hey Mike
                > >>
                > >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts,
                but last
                > >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
                > >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that
                I had
                > >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
                no one
                > >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
                us some
                > >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
                > >
                > > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a
                journal
                > > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
                > > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this,
                just in
                > > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
                > > much of what I heard or read about it.
                > >
                > > Regards
                > > --
                > > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
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