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Re: Gnostic claims to Paul of Tarsus for PMCV

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  • Tsharpmin7@aol.com
    Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and let other people jump in. PMCV hi PMCV... yes, very long, and i ve enjoyed every second.
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
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      Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and let
      other people jump in.

      PMCV
       
       
      hi PMCV...  yes, very long, and i've enjoyed every second.  but,
      PLEASE, someone else jump in here!
       
      your friend,
       
      Crispin Sainte III
    • Marina
      ... let ... hmmm..I will add something to this converstation, but it will have to wait until tomorrow, it is late and I have to get up early for work in the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Tsharpmin7@a... wrote:
        > Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and
        let
        > other people jump in.
        >
        > PMCV
        >
        >
        > hi PMCV... yes, very long, and i've enjoyed every second. but,
        > PLEASE, someone else jump in here!
        >
        > your friend,
        >
        > Crispin Sainte III


        hmmm..I will add something to this converstation, but it will have to
        wait until tomorrow, it is late and I have to get up early for work
        in the morning.

        Marina
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello pmcvflag ... Actually I have read somewhere that there are actual Manacheans still active in the Malabar part of India, original ones, not neos. How
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 4, 2005
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          Hello pmcvflag

          On 03/04/05, you wrote:

          > There is a new movement attempting to recreate Manichaeism (probably
          > a few). However, Manichaeans aren't technically Gnostic.
          >
          > Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and let
          > other people jump in.
          >
          > PMCV

          Actually I have read somewhere that there are actual Manacheans still
          active in the Malabar part of India, original ones, not neos. How
          true to the original tradition they are at this point and how
          influenced by Hinduism (even the Packistani Sufis are), I don't know.

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • elmoreb
          ... let ... Sure, Ill jump in ;) I was actually wrestling with the problems of Paul not long before this thread started. I think I mentioned it in my last
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 4, 2005
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Tsharpmin7@a... wrote:
            > Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and
            let
            > other people jump in.
            >
            > PMCV
            >
            >
            > hi PMCV... yes, very long, and i've enjoyed every second. but,
            > PLEASE, someone else jump in here!
            >
            > your friend,
            >
            > Crispin Sainte III

            Sure, Ill jump in ;) I was actually wrestling with the problems of
            Paul not long before this thread started. I think I mentioned it in
            my last thread.

            I was just looking at a few different versions of the Bible. I
            looked at 4 different translations: NIV, KJV, Revised standard
            edition, and the Darby version. The Revised Std didnt have any
            references to Gamaliel at all. The wording in the NIV and KJV seem
            to disagree on this matter.


            from the NIV Acts 22:3
            "I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in
            Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and
            taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers,
            and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. "

            It seems to attribute the city to Gamaliel, not Pauls education.

            from the KJV Acts 22:3

            "I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in
            Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and
            taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers,
            and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day."

            Sounds alot like he was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel. Seeing
            as how the KJV is nearly useless, I dont think I would pay it too
            much attention.

            I'm more willing to go with the NIV translation. As mentioned
            before, a student of Gamaliel wouldnt be out to quell
            the "Christian" uprising. On top of that, there isnt alot of
            information saying the he specifically persecuted followers of
            Christ. Acts says he persecuted people according to the jewish laws.
            If he WAS a student of Gamaliel, this wouldnt be too odd. Gamaliel
            was a lawyer so to speak ( according to acts) and it would make
            sense his student would also be in the same business. However, most
            Christians take this to mean that he persued the "Christians" at
            Damascus to bring them to Jerusalem to be punished. Which makes no
            sense, because Im fairly sure there were many more "Christians" in
            Jerusalem than Damascus at the time.

            Acts itself is a bit odd. It's most likely written by the same
            Author who wrote Luke. And its authenticity is proven by " the voice
            of tradition." Meaning that the orthodox Church agreed that it was
            authentic because it agreed with them. It also Coincided with the
            Gospels ( same writer as luke.. it better coincide). Which is the
            exact same reason the Gospels were chosen. Sounds like circular
            reasoning to me.

            Before I draw any conclusions, is there any extra-biblical evidence
            of Paul/Sauls travels?
          • elmoreb
            As a correction to my last post, the Revised std edition does mention gamaliel and it agrees with the NIV version. I was using a bible/version search and got a
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 4, 2005
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              As a correction to my last post, the Revised std edition does
              mention gamaliel and it agrees with the NIV version. I was using a
              bible/version search and got a little careless :P My apologies.
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Mike Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last spotted there. If you
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
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                Hey Mike

                Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
                last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
                spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
                had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
                no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
                us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

                PMCV

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                > Hello pmcvflag
                >
                > On 03/04/05, you wrote:
                >
                > > There is a new movement attempting to recreate Manichaeism
                (probably
                > > a few). However, Manichaeans aren't technically Gnostic.
                > >
                > > Golly, that was long *lol*. I guess I should rest a bit here and
                let
                > > other people jump in.
                > >
                > > PMCV
                >
                > Actually I have read somewhere that there are actual Manacheans
                still
                > active in the Malabar part of India, original ones, not neos. How
                > true to the original tradition they are at this point and how
                > influenced by Hinduism (even the Packistani Sufis are), I don't
                know.
                >
                > Regards
                > --
                > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
              • Mike Leavitt
                Hello pmcvflag ... I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My older
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 5, 2005
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                  Hello pmcvflag

                  On 03/06/05, you wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Hey Mike
                  >
                  > Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but
                  > last I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
                  > spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I
                  > had not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
                  > no one else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
                  > us some more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.

                  I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
                  article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
                  older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just
                  in case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
                  much of what I heard or read about it.

                  Regards
                  --
                  Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                • Thomas Leavitt
                  Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it surviving up to the present century in the Orient .
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
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                    Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that references it
                    surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".

                    http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv

                    Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard that
                    either.

                    It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which unfortunately
                    seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
                    Manicheanism, says that:

                    Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on the
                    Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of Mani".

                    ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.

                    This article,

                    Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
                    http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html

                    on a Mormon site of all things, says:

                    says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central Asia,
                    where it was declared the official religion by the king of the Uigur Turks
                    in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."

                    Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem to be
                    reasonably authoritative.

                    According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period Manichaeism
                    experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as a
                    heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
                    century."

                    http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism/essay.html

                    the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk Road
                    (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).

                    Another essay states:

                    "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable Light"
                    until the 17th century e.v."

                    http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm

                    again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is appended at
                    the bottom)

                    I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the Iranians
                    seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very eager to
                    claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).

                    It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):

                    http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html

                    The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
                    Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
                    worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is still
                    used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
                    special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a World
                    Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world religion.

                    There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy

                    http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm

                    claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
                    Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether actually
                    means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand, as a
                    resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know that.

                    Other data:

                    Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any direct
                    relation to the religious tradition of that name.

                    ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion that
                    there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
                    historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very widespread,
                    Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what may
                    survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has ever
                    become aware enough of to investigate?

                    Regards,
                    Thomas Leavitt

                    P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims that
                    Bush's worldview is "Manichean".

                    http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm

                    This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as the
                    world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of Lenin).

                    > Hello pmcvflag
                    >
                    > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
                    >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Hey Mike
                    >>
                    >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts, but last
                    >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
                    >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that I had
                    >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and no one
                    >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give us some
                    >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
                    >
                    > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a journal
                    > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
                    > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this, just in
                    > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
                    > much of what I heard or read about it.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > --
                    > Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                  • lady_caritas
                    Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading your information. Also, I ll correct and repost the first and last links from your reply
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 6, 2005
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                      Thomas, thank you for all your research. I look forward to reading
                      your information.

                      Also, I'll correct and repost the first and last links from your
                      reply that I couldn't initially access:

                      http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htm

                      http://hnn.us/articles/7202.html

                      Thanks again!


                      Cari


                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
                      references it
                      > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
                      >
                      > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I heard
                      that
                      > either.
                      >
                      > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
                      unfortunately
                      > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
                      > Manicheanism, says that:
                      >
                      > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled on
                      the
                      > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
                      Mani".
                      >
                      > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
                      >
                      > This article,
                      >
                      > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
                      > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
                      >
                      > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
                      >
                      > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
                      Asia,
                      > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
                      Uigur Turks
                      > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
                      to be
                      > reasonably authoritative.
                      >
                      > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
                      Manichaeism
                      > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed as
                      a
                      > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
                      > century."
                      >
                      >
                      http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeism
                      /essay.html
                      >
                      > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
                      Road
                      > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
                      >
                      > Another essay states:
                      >
                      > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
                      Light"
                      > until the 17th century e.v."
                      >
                      > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
                      >
                      > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
                      appended at
                      > the bottom)
                      >
                      > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
                      Iranians
                      > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
                      eager to
                      > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
                      >
                      > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
                      >
                      > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
                      >
                      > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
                      > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
                      > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
                      still
                      > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
                      > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
                      World
                      > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
                      religion.
                      >
                      > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
                      >
                      > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
                      >
                      > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
                      > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
                      actually
                      > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
                      as a
                      > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
                      that.
                      >
                      > Other data:
                      >
                      > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
                      direct
                      > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
                      >
                      > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the conclusion
                      that
                      > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
                      > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
                      widespread,
                      > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
                      may
                      > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
                      ever
                      > become aware enough of to investigate?
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Thomas Leavitt
                      >
                      > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
                      that
                      > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
                      >
                      > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
                      >
                      > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani as
                      the
                      > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
                      Lenin).
                      >
                    • pmcvflag
                      Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep (like the page
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 7, 2005
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                        Hey Thomas, thanks for all the info. I am looking in to the Quanzhou
                        angle to see whether this looks like perhaps a wide liguistic sweep
                        (like the page concerning Bush's "Manichaeism" *lol*), or if there
                        is something more there. It would certainly be an important link,
                        and an interesting study.

                        PMCV

                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
                        wrote:
                        > Hmm... the Gnosis Archive has a page on Manicheanism that
                        references it
                        > surviving up to the present century in the "Orient".
                        >
                        > http://www.gnosis.org/library/manis.htmv
                        >
                        > Unfortunately, I can't recall, at this point, exactly where I
                        heard that
                        > either.
                        >
                        > It may not be correct... the Catholic Encyclopedia, which
                        unfortunately
                        > seems to be the primary source for most site's information about
                        > Manicheanism, says that:
                        >
                        > Within a generation after Mani's death his followers had settled
                        on the
                        > Malabar Coast and gave the name to Minigrama, ie "Settlement of
                        Mani".
                        >
                        > ... someone may have assumed that they continue to survive there.
                        >
                        > This article,
                        >
                        > Mani: Gnostic Prophet of Dualism
                        > http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040712mani.html
                        >
                        > on a Mormon site of all things, says:
                        >
                        > says: "Manicheism was most successful among the nomads of Central
                        Asia,
                        > where it was declared the official religion by the king of the
                        Uigur Turks
                        > in 762, and survived until the sixteenth century."
                        >
                        > Unfortunately, without citing a source. However, the authors seem
                        to be
                        > reasonably authoritative.
                        >
                        > According to this essay, "During the Yuan (Mongol) period
                        Manichaeism
                        > experienced something of a revival in China, only to be outlawed
                        as a
                        > heretical Buddhist sect under the Ming legal code of the fourteenth
                        > century."
                        >
                        >
                        http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/religion/manichaeis
                        m/essay.html
                        >
                        > the source cited here is (1) Richard Foltz, Religions of the Silk
                        Road
                        > (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999).
                        >
                        > Another essay states:
                        >
                        > "It survived in Southern China as the "Religion of the Venerable
                        Light"
                        > until the 17th century e.v."
                        >
                        > http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/religion.htm
                        >
                        > again, without footnoting a specific source (though a list is
                        appended at
                        > the bottom)
                        >
                        > I dug farther, and found this item on Manicheanism in China (the
                        Iranians
                        > seem, logically enough, given the tradition's origin there, very
                        eager to
                        > claim Manicheanism as theirs, and to document its history).
                        >
                        > It ends with this item (lots of good/interesting stuff before it):
                        >
                        > http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Manicheism_in_China.html
                        >
                        > The religion probably finally died out in the first decades of the
                        > Twentieth Century. The temple on Hua-paio Hill, termed by the local
                        > worshippers as a chao-an (ca'ao-an) i.e. a "thatched nunnery", is
                        still
                        > used as a Buddhist temple where Mani is worshipped as a Buddha with
                        > special powers. UNESCO made the site of the Manichean chao-an a
                        World
                        > Heritage Site in 1991 as a unique relic of an extinct world
                        religion.
                        >
                        > There is a Manichean temple in Quanzhou, China, and this guy
                        >
                        > http://www.amoymagic.com/Quanzhoupage.htm
                        >
                        > claims that "the Persian Manichean religion survives today only in
                        > Quanzhou", although it is not clear from other entries whether
                        actually
                        > means there are practicing Manicheans there... on the other hand,
                        as a
                        > resident foriegner, he appears as likely as any non-native to know
                        that.
                        >
                        > Other data:
                        >
                        > Mani and Manichean seems to be a common word in India, without any
                        direct
                        > relation to the religious tradition of that name.
                        >
                        > ... on balance, I can't find any evidence to support the
                        conclusion that
                        > there are Manicheans practicing today that have a direct line of
                        > historical descent. On the other hand, the religion was very
                        widespread,
                        > Central Asia is still very much "off the grid", so who knows what
                        may
                        > survive in pocketes as a local traditionnnn that no Westerner has
                        ever
                        > become aware enough of to investigate?
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Thomas Leavitt
                        >
                        > P.S. On a political note, here's an interesting rebuttal to claims
                        that
                        > Bush's worldview is "Manichean".
                        >
                        > http://hnn.us/articles/7202.htm
                        >
                        > This is kind of amusing... apparently, an author has listed Mani
                        as the
                        > world's 83rd most influental person in history (right ahead of
                        Lenin).
                        >
                        > > Hello pmcvflag
                        > >
                        > > On 03/06/05, you wrote:
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Hey Mike
                        > >>
                        > >> Well, I was aware that Malabar was one of the later outposts,
                        but last
                        > >> I heard it was still around the 1500s when they were last
                        > >> spotted there. If you are talking about some new discovery that
                        I had
                        > >> not heard about, I am unable to find anything about it.... and
                        no one
                        > >> else I know seems to have heard about it either. Can you give
                        us some
                        > >> more info? It would certainly be extremely interesting.
                        > >
                        > > I wish I could, but some guy at church was talking about a
                        journal
                        > > article he had read, and I was not part of the conversation. My
                        > > older son Tom may know something too. I'll cc: him in on this,
                        just in
                        > > case. Not being into Manacheanism that much, I did not retain
                        > > much of what I heard or read about it.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > > --
                        > > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
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