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Re: Gnostics and Templars

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Mychael, I actually had completely misunderstood. When you mentioned the truths in a fiction I thought you meant allegorical truths of some nature. I
    Message 1 of 71 , Jan 31, 2005
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      Hey Mychael, I actually had completely misunderstood. When you
      mentioned the truths in a fiction I thought you meant allegorical
      truths of some nature. I thought it could be fun and interesting to
      explore what those ideas that you saw within the book might have in
      connection with Gnosticism.

      I see what you mean now, other than the allegory of the divine
      feminine you seem to be talking about sort of historical semi-
      conections. Well, that is of course interesting as well.

      I am with you in drawing a destinction between the original
      Rosicrucians as invented by J. V. Andrea and C. Besold vs the modern
      groups. And, of course no one would deny that this original group is
      influenced by hermeticism (as are the modern groups)... which is in
      turn very closely related to Gnosticism.

      I am a bit more skeptical when it comes to the Templars though. I
      can't even go so far as to say there is even any good conjecture
      that I have seen connecting them to any Gnostic system at all.
      However, you may have some ideas to share on that. I mean, sometimes
      I may say "there is no good evidence for _____", but I may still
      think a theory is well thought and very possible. In the case of the
      Templar/Gnosticism connection, what I tend to see is in fact more
      about a pretty explicit opposition in systems.

      While the Cathars are not technically Gnostic, they are one of the
      groups we list as "on topic" here. One fact that may be of interest
      in dealing with the Templars then is that Barnard created much of
      their rule and helped them institute the order.... and he was also a
      violent anti-Cathar proslytizer.

      We maybe should also mention in this conversation the fact that one
      of the movements that is also similar to Gnosticism found it's
      primary early solidification here in the same area.... Kabbalah.

      AND, there were Platonic Academies here as well. Maybe not
      coincidence that various esoteric movements came into existance in
      this time, they do tend to follow the Academies.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, nakedalchemy@a... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 1/30/2005 11:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
      >
      > Interesting point, Mychael, concerning the differentiation
      between
      > truth and falsehood in fiction. Of course, to some extent it is
      > preaching to the preachers here, and I know that George is also
      one
      > who is very aware of the principle you are talking about.
      >
      > However, I am wondering if you could point out for the sake of
      > conversation exactly where you feel the truth is (specifically
      > concerning Gnosticism) in these particular works of entertaining
      > fiction. Many people do wonder about the Da Vinci Codes, and the
      > Holy Blood Holy Grail, and how they are related to Gnostic
      thought
      > so perhaps it is a good subject to talk about here.
      >
      > BTW, welcome to the group, C.A.S., I would also like to deal with
      > the point you bring up from the historical perspective. In this
      case
      > what Dan Brown talks about in the Da Vinci codes is really not
      very
      > related to historical Gnosticism. Some of the things he says about
      > the Nag Hammadi texts and what they contain are actually
      completely
      > untrue. He is wrong that Gnostics believed that Jesus and Mary
      had
      > children, they didn't. There is also nothing in the Nag Hammadi
      > about Jesus being married, or even anything about sexual rituals
      > like the ones he outlines.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      >
      >
      > I have read the Da Vinci Code and also saw a documentary of
      Cracking the Da
      > Vinci Code, neither persuaded me of much to do with Gnosticism
      except that Da
      > Vinci pretty much despised the Christian attitude, his works were
      done as a
      > livelihood and he did poke some blasphemies into the his paintings
      without
      > being readily seen...The only real connection is that Da Vinci
      himself may have
      > been influenced by some Gnostic thought.
      > The only profound thing the book did for me, was enlighten the
      world about
      > the Divine Feminine aspect of God.
      > I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail a long time ago when it came out,
      and although
      > fascinating, there was little evidence to back up much of their
      claims. I
      > was very much into Grail lore at the time and the title intrigued
      me, the
      > connections between the church locations in or around the Pyrenees
      seemed to have
      > some insight...Otherwise, they pulled rabbits out of the hat with
      their
      > sources. But, also what both books did do is to get people
      thinking in
      > alternatives, and this is a good thing, not to settle for what's
      in the feedbag
      > I suppose the biggest clue is of the Knights Templars, but it is
      still
      > conjecture if they followed a secret Gnostic plan of their own,
      surely their
      > elitism might fall into that category somewhere, but, then their
      allowing many
      > into their fold over time would discount that...if anything their
      similarity to
      > the story of the Three Musketeers is much more close in my mind,
      and they were
      > part of the Crusades. So, who knows, many of the Crusaders
      latched onto
      > things both materialistically and intellectually as the overtook
      various
      > cultures.
      > While I would consider elements of both books to have truths,
      overall one is
      > a work of fiction, and the other strictly conjecture.
      > If either got some people to explore and investigate and research
      > more...this is a start, but as one does research more, one finds
      many dead ends, and
      > people just love to read into things, and I am of the guilty
      there, too. To me,
      > the invisible and perhaps nonexistent Rosicrucianism(not counting
      AMORC)is
      > more closely akin to the Gnostic as well as The Hermeticists, and
      I am to
      > understand The Priory of Scion is a complete fabrication
      perpetrated by a few who
      > made its history up, just as Rosicrucianism, or else the
      possibility exists
      > that they were a "true to the letter" secret society.
      > But, imagination sparks many things, without it humanity would be
      still in
      > the dark ages, and as fanciful as much of it is, one need only
      look at science
      > fiction and what it predicted and is now come to be made fact.
      > However, I am one of those who believes that adage that truth is
      often
      > stranger than fiction.
      >
      > mychael
    • nakedalchemy@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:10:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes: Speaking of forgetting things.... what I hate the most is when
      Message 71 of 71 , Feb 9, 2005
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        In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:10:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
        Speaking of forgetting things.... what I hate the most is when I am
        at the store, or somewhere, and I forget where I live and......
        wait..... Do I know you, Gary?

        PMCV
        i have driven by my house, when i had one, a few times...
        what is worse when you feel in an alternative universe and everything looks only vaguely familiar..this happens to me alot...almost like an out of body experience only you are wide awake.
         
        mychael
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