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Re: Hello Again....

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  • pmcvflag
    Mychael Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The Gnostic ritual system
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 21, 2004
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      Mychael

      Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further
      when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The
      Gnostic ritual system is so closely tied to it's ritual function,
      that I don't think we can remove any of the aspects from this ritual
      function.

      Perhaps an intersting subject would be just what that function could
      be. Here is my observation; Gnostic ritual is filled with meaning.
      Ritual in and of itself is a mnemonic for the points being dealt
      with in the ritual. That is to say, dealing with the mythology on a
      basis that hits you physically, intellectually, and spiritually...
      all at the same time.... serves to drive the point home. Gnostic
      ritual was also shocking in it's original context, which served to
      focus the attention.

      If the two work together they do more than than even "energize". The
      point of the ritual is to break assumption and hopefully provide
      direct experience of the message so that understanding
      is "initiated". Ritual was meant as an actual method of passing on
      understanding ("Gnosis").

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, nakedalchemy@a... wrote:
      >
      > In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
      >
      > Hey Annie
      >
      > Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I
      would
      > say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the
      worthless
      > nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
      > Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
      > given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
      > shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating
      it
      > as well as the light standing behind it.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...>
      wrote:
      > > hi Annie Marie
      > >
      > > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self,
      just
      > as the Truth is--and God.
      > >
      > > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done
      in
      > a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
      > representation of the true transformation which takes place
      within.
      > >
      > > agape & unity
      > > annie
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello All,
      >
      > there is something to be said for ritual, from the mundane to the
      ceremonial
      > and sacremental...yes, it is pomp, yes it is much a prop, but
      something
      > delightful does occur within ritual if one is really attuned to
      the proceedings.
      > I, don't boohoo it so much as forgo the props for there are many
      another way
      > to enact upon e.g. meditation, etc.
      > Even the sense of communing with others, with deity, with nature
      can be
      > achieved through ritual...I think it is often a way to find
      fellowship, yes, but
      > also a way to "energize" one's self.
      > Ritual supposedly puts you into focus...to mirror your beliefs....
      >
      > mychael
    • nakedalchemy@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes: Mychael Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 22, 2004
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        In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
        Mychael

        Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further
        when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The
        Gnostic ritual system is so closely tied to it's  ritual function,
        that I don't think we can remove any of the aspects from this ritual
        function.

        Perhaps an intersting subject would be just what that function could
        be. Here is my observation; Gnostic ritual is filled with meaning.
        Ritual in and of itself is a mnemonic for the points being dealt
        with in the ritual. That is to say, dealing with the mythology on a
        basis that hits you physically, intellectually, and spiritually...
        all at the same time.... serves to drive the point home. Gnostic
        ritual was also shocking in it's original context, which served to
        focus the attention.

        If the two work together they do more than than even "energize". The
        point of the ritual is to break assumption and hopefully provide
        direct experience of the message so that understanding
        is "initiated". Ritual was meant as an actual method of passing on
        understanding ("Gnosis").

        PMCV
         PMVC
         
        I agree, well said.
         
        mychael
      • hermetic_star
        I must agree here. The sacrements seal what is already within you. The water babtism and the chrism still survive within the orthodoxy, but the redemption and
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
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          I must agree here. The sacrements seal what is already within you. The
          water babtism and the chrism still survive within the orthodoxy, but
          the redemption and bridal chamber have been lost to us. It's debated
          that parts of the BC have survived into the LDS church, but I have
          info that makes me think otherwise. Maybe we should chat on this
          subject in the near future. ;)

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
          > hi Annie Marie
          >
          > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just as
          the Truth is--and God.
          >
          > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in a
          tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
          representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
          >
          > agape & unity
          > annie
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: mercyboxfan
          > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:17 PM
          > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
          > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once


          > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
          > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
          > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
          > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
          > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
          > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
          > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
          >
          > Anne Marie
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • hermetic_star
          There is also another church in Palo Alto that claims to have the BC (or a BC?)... I believe they are called Ecclasia Gnostica Mysterium or something
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
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            There is also another church in Palo Alto that claims to have the BC
            (or 'a' BC?)... I believe they are called 'Ecclasia Gnostica
            Mysterium' or something close...

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hmm, well, of course not all Gnostics of old practiced all these
            > rites. Since this was essentially a Valentinian outline you offered
            > (one that does still essentially exist within the Catholic Church)
            > then besides the fact that you already mention the church I would
            > have to say that the groups that are most closely related to this
            > outline.... such as the Ecclesia Gnostica, could be your best bet.
            >
            > PMCV
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
            > > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know,
            > once
            > > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
            > > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
            > > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
            > > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption
            > and
            > > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only
            > place
            > > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
            > > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
            > >
            > > Anne Marie
          • hermetic_star
            Whoops, forgot about the Eucharist. I believe the orthodox eucharist is similar enough to the Gnostic version to be workable. What determines its effectiveness
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
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              Whoops, forgot about the Eucharist. I believe the orthodox eucharist
              is similar enough to the Gnostic version to be workable. What
              determines its effectiveness is the awareness of the true meanings of
              the symbols involved. Anyway, I want to wish you luck on your quest to
              find and recieve these.

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
              > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once
              > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
              > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
              > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
              > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
              > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
              > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
              > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
              >
              > Anne Marie
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