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Re: Hello Again....

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Annie Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I would say ritual only as if the very word somehow implies the worthless nature of
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 20, 2004
      Hey Annie

      Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I would
      say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the worthless
      nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
      Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
      given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
      shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating it
      as well as the light standing behind it.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
      > hi Annie Marie
      >
      > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just
      as the Truth is--and God.
      >
      > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in
      a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
      representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
      >
      > agape & unity
      > annie
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: mercyboxfan
      > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:17 PM
      > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
      > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know,
      once
      > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
      > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With
      orthodoxy
      > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake
      of
      > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption
      and
      > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only
      place
      > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
      > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
      >
      > Anne Marie
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • nakedalchemy@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes: Hey Annie Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 21, 2004
        In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
        Hey Annie

        Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I would
        say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the worthless
        nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
        Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
        given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
        shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating it
        as well as the light standing behind it.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
        > hi Annie Marie
        >
        > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just
        as the Truth is--and God.
        >
        > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in
        a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
        representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
        >
        > agape & unity
        > annie
        Hello All,
         
        there is something to be said for ritual, from the mundane to the ceremonial and sacremental...yes, it is pomp, yes it is much a prop, but something delightful does occur within ritual if one is really attuned to the proceedings.
        I, don't boohoo it so much as forgo the props for there are many another way to enact upon e.g. meditation, etc.
        Even the sense of communing with others, with deity, with nature can be achieved through ritual...I think it is often a way to find fellowship, yes, but also a way to "energize" one's self.
        Ritual supposedly puts you into focus...to mirror your beliefs....
         
        mychael
      • pmcvflag
        Mychael Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The Gnostic ritual system
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 21, 2004
          Mychael

          Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further
          when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The
          Gnostic ritual system is so closely tied to it's ritual function,
          that I don't think we can remove any of the aspects from this ritual
          function.

          Perhaps an intersting subject would be just what that function could
          be. Here is my observation; Gnostic ritual is filled with meaning.
          Ritual in and of itself is a mnemonic for the points being dealt
          with in the ritual. That is to say, dealing with the mythology on a
          basis that hits you physically, intellectually, and spiritually...
          all at the same time.... serves to drive the point home. Gnostic
          ritual was also shocking in it's original context, which served to
          focus the attention.

          If the two work together they do more than than even "energize". The
          point of the ritual is to break assumption and hopefully provide
          direct experience of the message so that understanding
          is "initiated". Ritual was meant as an actual method of passing on
          understanding ("Gnosis").

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, nakedalchemy@a... wrote:
          >
          > In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
          >
          > Hey Annie
          >
          > Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I
          would
          > say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the
          worthless
          > nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
          > Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
          > given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
          > shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating
          it
          > as well as the light standing behind it.
          >
          > PMCV
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...>
          wrote:
          > > hi Annie Marie
          > >
          > > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self,
          just
          > as the Truth is--and God.
          > >
          > > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done
          in
          > a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
          > representation of the true transformation which takes place
          within.
          > >
          > > agape & unity
          > > annie
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello All,
          >
          > there is something to be said for ritual, from the mundane to the
          ceremonial
          > and sacremental...yes, it is pomp, yes it is much a prop, but
          something
          > delightful does occur within ritual if one is really attuned to
          the proceedings.
          > I, don't boohoo it so much as forgo the props for there are many
          another way
          > to enact upon e.g. meditation, etc.
          > Even the sense of communing with others, with deity, with nature
          can be
          > achieved through ritual...I think it is often a way to find
          fellowship, yes, but
          > also a way to "energize" one's self.
          > Ritual supposedly puts you into focus...to mirror your beliefs....
          >
          > mychael
        • nakedalchemy@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes: Mychael Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 22, 2004
            In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
            Mychael

            Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further
            when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The
            Gnostic ritual system is so closely tied to it's  ritual function,
            that I don't think we can remove any of the aspects from this ritual
            function.

            Perhaps an intersting subject would be just what that function could
            be. Here is my observation; Gnostic ritual is filled with meaning.
            Ritual in and of itself is a mnemonic for the points being dealt
            with in the ritual. That is to say, dealing with the mythology on a
            basis that hits you physically, intellectually, and spiritually...
            all at the same time.... serves to drive the point home. Gnostic
            ritual was also shocking in it's original context, which served to
            focus the attention.

            If the two work together they do more than than even "energize". The
            point of the ritual is to break assumption and hopefully provide
            direct experience of the message so that understanding
            is "initiated". Ritual was meant as an actual method of passing on
            understanding ("Gnosis").

            PMCV
             PMVC
             
            I agree, well said.
             
            mychael
          • hermetic_star
            I must agree here. The sacrements seal what is already within you. The water babtism and the chrism still survive within the orthodoxy, but the redemption and
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
              I must agree here. The sacrements seal what is already within you. The
              water babtism and the chrism still survive within the orthodoxy, but
              the redemption and bridal chamber have been lost to us. It's debated
              that parts of the BC have survived into the LDS church, but I have
              info that makes me think otherwise. Maybe we should chat on this
              subject in the near future. ;)

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
              > hi Annie Marie
              >
              > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just as
              the Truth is--and God.
              >
              > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in a
              tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
              representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
              >
              > agape & unity
              > annie
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: mercyboxfan
              > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:17 PM
              > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
              > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once


              > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
              > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
              > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
              > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
              > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
              > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
              > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
              >
              > Anne Marie
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              > Children International
              > Give a Child the gift of Hope this Holiday
              season
              >
              > · Click Here to meet a Boy
              > And Change His Life
              >
              > · Click Here to meet a Girl
              > And Give Her Hope are
              >
              > Learn More
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
            • hermetic_star
              There is also another church in Palo Alto that claims to have the BC (or a BC?)... I believe they are called Ecclasia Gnostica Mysterium or something
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
                There is also another church in Palo Alto that claims to have the BC
                (or 'a' BC?)... I believe they are called 'Ecclasia Gnostica
                Mysterium' or something close...

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hmm, well, of course not all Gnostics of old practiced all these
                > rites. Since this was essentially a Valentinian outline you offered
                > (one that does still essentially exist within the Catholic Church)
                > then besides the fact that you already mention the church I would
                > have to say that the groups that are most closely related to this
                > outline.... such as the Ecclesia Gnostica, could be your best bet.
                >
                > PMCV
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
                > > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know,
                > once
                > > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
                > > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
                > > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
                > > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption
                > and
                > > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only
                > place
                > > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
                > > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
                > >
                > > Anne Marie
              • hermetic_star
                Whoops, forgot about the Eucharist. I believe the orthodox eucharist is similar enough to the Gnostic version to be workable. What determines its effectiveness
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
                  Whoops, forgot about the Eucharist. I believe the orthodox eucharist
                  is similar enough to the Gnostic version to be workable. What
                  determines its effectiveness is the awareness of the true meanings of
                  the symbols involved. Anyway, I want to wish you luck on your quest to
                  find and recieve these.

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
                  > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once
                  > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
                  > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
                  > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
                  > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
                  > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
                  > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
                  > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
                  >
                  > Anne Marie
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