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Re: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....

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  • annie
    hi Annie Marie truly, I believe they are only available within one s self, just as the Truth is--and God. the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 19, 2004
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      hi Annie Marie
       
      truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just as the Truth is--and God.
       
      the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
       
      agape & unity
      annie
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:17 PM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....



      I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
      disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once
      gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
      again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
      being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
      the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
      bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
      to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
      Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.

      Anne Marie







    • pmcvflag
      Hmm, well, of course not all Gnostics of old practiced all these rites. Since this was essentially a Valentinian outline you offered (one that does still
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 20, 2004
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        Hmm, well, of course not all Gnostics of old practiced all these
        rites. Since this was essentially a Valentinian outline you offered
        (one that does still essentially exist within the Catholic Church)
        then besides the fact that you already mention the church I would
        have to say that the groups that are most closely related to this
        outline.... such as the Ecclesia Gnostica, could be your best bet.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
        > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know,
        once
        > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
        > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
        > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
        > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption
        and
        > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only
        place
        > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
        > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
        >
        > Anne Marie
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Annie Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I would say ritual only as if the very word somehow implies the worthless nature of
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 20, 2004
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          Hey Annie

          Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I would
          say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the worthless
          nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
          Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
          given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
          shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating it
          as well as the light standing behind it.

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
          > hi Annie Marie
          >
          > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just
          as the Truth is--and God.
          >
          > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in
          a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
          representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
          >
          > agape & unity
          > annie
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: mercyboxfan
          > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:17 PM
          > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
          > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know,
          once
          > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
          > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With
          orthodoxy
          > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake
          of
          > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption
          and
          > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only
          place
          > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
          > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
          >
          > Anne Marie
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • nakedalchemy@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes: Hey Annie Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 21, 2004
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            In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
            Hey Annie

            Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I would
            say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the worthless
            nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
            Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
            given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
            shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating it
            as well as the light standing behind it.

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
            > hi Annie Marie
            >
            > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just
            as the Truth is--and God.
            >
            > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in
            a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
            representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
            >
            > agape & unity
            > annie
            Hello All,
             
            there is something to be said for ritual, from the mundane to the ceremonial and sacremental...yes, it is pomp, yes it is much a prop, but something delightful does occur within ritual if one is really attuned to the proceedings.
            I, don't boohoo it so much as forgo the props for there are many another way to enact upon e.g. meditation, etc.
            Even the sense of communing with others, with deity, with nature can be achieved through ritual...I think it is often a way to find fellowship, yes, but also a way to "energize" one's self.
            Ritual supposedly puts you into focus...to mirror your beliefs....
             
            mychael
          • pmcvflag
            Mychael Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The Gnostic ritual system
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 21, 2004
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              Mychael

              Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further
              when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The
              Gnostic ritual system is so closely tied to it's ritual function,
              that I don't think we can remove any of the aspects from this ritual
              function.

              Perhaps an intersting subject would be just what that function could
              be. Here is my observation; Gnostic ritual is filled with meaning.
              Ritual in and of itself is a mnemonic for the points being dealt
              with in the ritual. That is to say, dealing with the mythology on a
              basis that hits you physically, intellectually, and spiritually...
              all at the same time.... serves to drive the point home. Gnostic
              ritual was also shocking in it's original context, which served to
              focus the attention.

              If the two work together they do more than than even "energize". The
              point of the ritual is to break assumption and hopefully provide
              direct experience of the message so that understanding
              is "initiated". Ritual was meant as an actual method of passing on
              understanding ("Gnosis").

              PMCV

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, nakedalchemy@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
              >
              > Hey Annie
              >
              > Well, in one way I agree with you. However, I am not so sure I
              would
              > say "ritual only" as if the very word somehow implies the
              worthless
              > nature of ritual practice. I mean. we should not forget that
              > Gnosticism is an initiatory system, which means that ritual was
              > given a heavy meaning in traditional Gnostic outlines. I mean, a
              > shadow is determined by the nature of the material image creating
              it
              > as well as the light standing behind it.
              >
              > PMCV
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...>
              wrote:
              > > hi Annie Marie
              > >
              > > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self,
              just
              > as the Truth is--and God.
              > >
              > > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done
              in
              > a tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
              > representation of the true transformation which takes place
              within.
              > >
              > > agape & unity
              > > annie
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello All,
              >
              > there is something to be said for ritual, from the mundane to the
              ceremonial
              > and sacremental...yes, it is pomp, yes it is much a prop, but
              something
              > delightful does occur within ritual if one is really attuned to
              the proceedings.
              > I, don't boohoo it so much as forgo the props for there are many
              another way
              > to enact upon e.g. meditation, etc.
              > Even the sense of communing with others, with deity, with nature
              can be
              > achieved through ritual...I think it is often a way to find
              fellowship, yes, but
              > also a way to "energize" one's self.
              > Ritual supposedly puts you into focus...to mirror your beliefs....
              >
              > mychael
            • nakedalchemy@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes: Mychael Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 22, 2004
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                In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
                Mychael

                Good points. In fact, I would even take the notion a bit further
                when we are talking about Gnostic usage of this methodology. The
                Gnostic ritual system is so closely tied to it's  ritual function,
                that I don't think we can remove any of the aspects from this ritual
                function.

                Perhaps an intersting subject would be just what that function could
                be. Here is my observation; Gnostic ritual is filled with meaning.
                Ritual in and of itself is a mnemonic for the points being dealt
                with in the ritual. That is to say, dealing with the mythology on a
                basis that hits you physically, intellectually, and spiritually...
                all at the same time.... serves to drive the point home. Gnostic
                ritual was also shocking in it's original context, which served to
                focus the attention.

                If the two work together they do more than than even "energize". The
                point of the ritual is to break assumption and hopefully provide
                direct experience of the message so that understanding
                is "initiated". Ritual was meant as an actual method of passing on
                understanding ("Gnosis").

                PMCV
                 PMVC
                 
                I agree, well said.
                 
                mychael
              • hermetic_star
                I must agree here. The sacrements seal what is already within you. The water babtism and the chrism still survive within the orthodoxy, but the redemption and
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
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                  I must agree here. The sacrements seal what is already within you. The
                  water babtism and the chrism still survive within the orthodoxy, but
                  the redemption and bridal chamber have been lost to us. It's debated
                  that parts of the BC have survived into the LDS church, but I have
                  info that makes me think otherwise. Maybe we should chat on this
                  subject in the near future. ;)

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "annie" <annielu38@z...> wrote:
                  > hi Annie Marie
                  >
                  > truly, I believe they are only available within one's self, just as
                  the Truth is--and God.
                  >
                  > the outer sacraments are ritual only, and being something done in a
                  tangible manner (i.e. in physical actions) are just a shadow
                  representation of the true transformation which takes place within.
                  >
                  > agape & unity
                  > annie
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: mercyboxfan
                  > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:17 PM
                  > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Hello Again....
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
                  > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once


                  > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
                  > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
                  > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
                  > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
                  > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
                  > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
                  > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
                  >
                  > Anne Marie
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > Children International
                  > Give a Child the gift of Hope this Holiday
                  season
                  >
                  > · Click Here to meet a Boy
                  > And Change His Life
                  >
                  > · Click Here to meet a Girl
                  > And Give Her Hope are
                  >
                  > Learn More
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                • hermetic_star
                  There is also another church in Palo Alto that claims to have the BC (or a BC?)... I believe they are called Ecclasia Gnostica Mysterium or something
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
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                    There is also another church in Palo Alto that claims to have the BC
                    (or 'a' BC?)... I believe they are called 'Ecclasia Gnostica
                    Mysterium' or something close...

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hmm, well, of course not all Gnostics of old practiced all these
                    > rites. Since this was essentially a Valentinian outline you offered
                    > (one that does still essentially exist within the Catholic Church)
                    > then besides the fact that you already mention the church I would
                    > have to say that the groups that are most closely related to this
                    > outline.... such as the Ecclesia Gnostica, could be your best bet.
                    >
                    > PMCV
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
                    > > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know,
                    > once
                    > > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
                    > > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
                    > > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
                    > > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption
                    > and
                    > > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only
                    > place
                    > > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
                    > > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
                    > >
                    > > Anne Marie
                  • hermetic_star
                    Whoops, forgot about the Eucharist. I believe the orthodox eucharist is similar enough to the Gnostic version to be workable. What determines its effectiveness
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 16, 2005
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                      Whoops, forgot about the Eucharist. I believe the orthodox eucharist
                      is similar enough to the Gnostic version to be workable. What
                      determines its effectiveness is the awareness of the true meanings of
                      the symbols involved. Anyway, I want to wish you luck on your quest to
                      find and recieve these.

                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "mercyboxfan" <mercyboxfan@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I used to follow the original group a while ago...became very
                      > disillusioned with some of the people and left...as we all know, once
                      > gnosis has been uncovered it doesnt leave us...so I am saying hi
                      > again. My reason for posting is a question to pose. With orthodoxy
                      > being what it is where does a modern "gnostic" find and partake of
                      > the five mysteries? Meaning baptism,chrism,eucharist,redemption and
                      > bridal chamber. It seems the orthodox church would be the only place
                      > to find these, but I was wondering if you guys of another way?
                      > Thanks for your help and nice to be talking with you again.
                      >
                      > Anne Marie
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