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Re: QUESTIONS...

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  • elmoreb
    ... One ... Binah)?) ... Lucifer ... Etruscan ... This isnt meant to be rude, but this has nothing to do with gnosticism at all. More Paganism than anything.
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 17, 2004
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "baphometh17" <baphometh17@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello List!
      >
      > Greetings!
      >
      > I`m a new member of this Gnosticism Group.I`m Brazilian,Ilove
      > music,magick,gnosticism,cinema,etc.
      >
      > I would like to ask some questions for you:
      >
      > 1)Is Baphomet the same than the Lucifer and Lilith`s Union in only
      One
      > God?Which are the differences between Lucifer and Baphometh?
      >
      > 2)Would Baphometh have the same meaning that we find out in
      > Hercules?(How could I invoke Baphometh?(Is He in Tiphareth or
      Binah)?)
      >
      > 3)Would that old Christian´s mith of 'Fallen Angel' related to
      Lucifer
      > in the Old Testament a one?!
      >
      > 4)If Lucifer is a Roman God (Lucifero),Diana`s Brother in the
      Etruscan
      > Mithology,why would He be a 'Fallen Angel' ?(It was 'created by'
      > Judaism ,isn`t It?
      >
      > Thanks in advance!
      >
      > Ave Lvcifer!
      >
      > Baphometh.

      This isnt meant to be rude, but this has nothing to do with
      gnosticism at all. More Paganism than anything. Baphomet and Lucifer
      have no place in traditional gnosticim. I really hope this isnt what
      people are calling "gnosticim" now. I think you want to look into
      the occult not Gnosticism. You are bit confused, my friend.


      Baphomet is the idol that the Knights Templar were accused of
      worshiping ( and then burned at the stake for on friday the 13th...
      the reason 13 is bad, as well as friday the 13th). His name is
      thought to have been made up of other abbreviations. The word its
      self means "Baptism of Wisdom", and the idol or diety has never been
      proven to even exist prior to this.

      In the 20th Century, Ordo Templi Orientis ( the organisation that
      set up Alister Crowley as thier British Section) "ressurected" the
      name and made it an occult icon.

      So Baphomet is a fairly new thing, and has very shaky foundations.

      As for question 3 & 4, I think you are asking if lucifer is the same
      as the fallen angel? That is the popular Christian belief. In the
      early days of the Church, alot of names from other cultures were
      absorbed. They dont necessarily refer to the same being, but one
      similar. Its hard to convert the masses without a few names being
      brought into the mix.
    • Mike Leavitt
      Hello elmoreb ... The name was actually used in one of the illustrations in Eliphas Levi s book on Magic, so it dates only to the middle of the 19th century,
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 17, 2004
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        Hello elmoreb

        On 11/17/04, you wrote:
        > Baphomet is the idol that the Knights Templar were accused of
        > worshiping ( and then burned at the stake for on friday the 13th...
        > the reason 13 is bad, as well as friday the 13th). His name is
        > thought to have been made up of other abbreviations. The word its
        > self means "Baptism of Wisdom", and the idol or diety has never been
        > proven to even exist prior to this.
        >
        > In the 20th Century, Ordo Templi Orientis ( the organisation that
        > set up Alister Crowley as thier British Section) "ressurected" the
        > name and made it an occult icon.
        >
        > So Baphomet is a fairly new thing, and has very shaky foundations.
        >
        > As for question 3 & 4, I think you are asking if lucifer is the same
        > as the fallen angel? That is the popular Christian belief. In the
        > early days of the Church, alot of names from other cultures were
        > absorbed. They dont necessarily refer to the same being, but one
        > similar. Its hard to convert the masses without a few names being
        > brought into the mix.

        The name was actually used in one of the illustrations in Eliphas
        Levi's book on Magic, so it dates only to the middle of the 19th
        century, at least in its revival. It was an illustration of the
        supposed Templar Baphomet, BTW. It has been so long since I read it
        I forget what Levi said, just that it was a defense of the Templars
        to my memory (which isn't all that good). Levi is fun to read, just
        take most of what he says with a grain of salt. His books on Magic
        and the "History of Magic' actually contradict each other, even in
        the theme of each book.

        Regards
        --
        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
      • pmcvflag
        Hello Baphometh..... ... only One God? Which are the differences between Lucifer and Baphometh?
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 17, 2004
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          Hello Baphometh.....

          >>>"1)Is Baphomet the same than the Lucifer and Lilith`s Union in
          only One God? Which are the differences between Lucifer and
          Baphometh?"<<<<

          To back what Eloreb and Mike said, this is an historical subject
          that is not technically within the scope of "Gnosticism". The first
          time the word "Lucifer" comes to us is when Jerome (the "translater"
          of the Latin "Vulgate") uses it to talk about the King of Babylon.
          The term does not appear in any good translation of the "Bible".
          Jerome was in a rhetoric war with a Bishop whose name was Lucifer,
          so it is no wonder he wrote this Bishop's name into his translation
          of the Bible.

          Baphomet, on the other hand, is a term that the Templars were
          accused of worhipping as an idol. It is just a Occitan perversion of
          the name "Muhammad". Eliphas Levi, much later, used the term to
          describe what he called a "Gnostic God" that never existed in
          Gnosticism. This comes from Eliphas' own ignorance of the origin of
          the word.

          To connect the two is to ignore the origin of both.

          >>>"2)Would Baphometh have the same meaning that we find out in
          Hercules?(How could I invoke Baphometh?(Is He in Tiphareth or
          Binah)?)"<<<<

          now you are mixing three completely unrelated terms. Baphomet, a
          medieval term meant to deal with Islam from a western understanding,
          Tiphareth abd Binah, terms from Kabbalah, and Gnosticism.

          >>>"3)Would that old Christian´s mith of 'Fallen Angel' related to
          Lucifer in the Old Testament a one?!"<<<<

          Only in more modern liturature.... as I said, the term "Lucifer" was
          a rhetorical addition.

          >>>"4)If Lucifer is a Roman God (Lucifero),Diana`s Brother in the
          Etruscan Mithology,why would He be a 'Fallen Angel' ?(It
          was 'created by' Judaism ,isn`t It?"<<<<

          This is one of the beefs I have had with Jungian thought. It finds
          it's way into Thelema, and into Samael Aun Woer as well. It sounds
          as if you are creating historical connections that are far from
          being demonstrated, and in some cases are genuinely false. We can
          NOT take supposed psychological motifs and assume historical
          interaction. Diana is not Etruscan, Lucifer is not a Roman God, and
          there is no Jewish mention of either. I DO understand that such
          connection have come up in comparative religion of the 1800s and
          early 1900s, but much of the connection has been proven false.

          Thelema, Kabbalah, Samael Aun Woer, Eliphas..... none of this is
          Gnosticism.

          PMCV
        • Gerry
          ... So, in other words, you can t tell us how we might go about invoking our dark Lord? How bout any good documentaries or movie recommendations that might
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 18, 2004
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > [....]
            > This is one of the beefs I have had with Jungian thought. It finds
            > it's way into Thelema, and into Samael Aun Woer as well. It sounds
            > as if you are creating historical connections that are far from
            > being demonstrated, and in some cases are genuinely false. We can
            > NOT take supposed psychological motifs and assume historical
            > interaction. Diana is not Etruscan, Lucifer is not a Roman God, and
            > there is no Jewish mention of either. I DO understand that such
            > connection have come up in comparative religion of the 1800s and
            > early 1900s, but much of the connection has been proven false.
            >
            > Thelema, Kabbalah, Samael Aun Woer, Eliphas..... none of this is
            > Gnosticism.
            >
            > PMCV




            So, in other words, you can't tell us how we might go about invoking
            our dark Lord? How 'bout any good documentaries or movie
            recommendations that might be instructional in that regard? ;-)

            Actually, since Baphometh mentioned being a fan of the cinema as
            well, it could be pointed out that we've discussed the Gnostic
            relevance of various films here as well. Among those, I still think
            that _The Truman Show_ came closest to portraying an individual faced
            with overcoming the archontic control of his existence. We've seen
            one aspect or another of Gnosticism represented in a number of films,
            but what would best capture the notion of The Ineffable? Viewing 90
            minutes of blank screen? I wonder how many of today's impatient,
            instant-gratification-seeking moviegoers would sit through THAT
            without starting a riot in the theater! LOL

            Along more of a platonic vein, I notice another movie airing tonight
            (8:00pm and 1:00am Eastern) on the Independent Film Channel. For
            anyone who hasn't seen it yet, you may get a kick out of _Hedwig and
            the Angry Inch_. Even Elmoreb's speculation on how people are
            interpreting "Gnosticism" in the popular culture these days can be
            seen in how Tommy Gnosis steals and unwittingly bastardizes the
            material which Hedwig imparted to him. If anyone out there is into
            the quasi-Gnostic musical genre, this one is terribly funny . . . as
            well as moving.

            Gerry
          • Annie
            Hi Gerry-- your post reminded me of a conversation I had the other day with my honey. we were talking about how devil and demiurge somehow have a symbiotic
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 18, 2004
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              Hi Gerry--
               
              your post reminded me of a conversation I had the other day with my honey.  we were talking about how devil and demiurge somehow have a symbiotic relationship, but possibly are 'twin brothers', based on the origins of the name of Saboath.  (not gnostic here, but still an interesting facet of the mythos of judaism, christianity, and gnosticism)
               
              the God movies starring George Burns and John Denver were quite funny, IMO, and I especially see a truth inherent in the title 'Oh God, You Devil'.  I think it was the last sequel, and if so, how appropriate, since that realization is the last one in the dualistic mind, after which follows the understandings of unity of spirit above the call of black and white.
              love~~annie
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Gerry
              Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 10:51 AM
              Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: QUESTIONS...


              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              > [....]
              > This is one of the beefs I have had with Jungian thought. It finds
              > it's way into Thelema, and into Samael Aun Woer as well. It sounds
              > as if you are creating historical connections that are far from
              > being demonstrated, and in some cases are genuinely false. We can
              > NOT take supposed psychological motifs and assume historical
              > interaction. Diana is not Etruscan, Lucifer is not a Roman God, and
              > there is no Jewish mention of either. I DO understand that such
              > connection have come up in comparative religion of the 1800s and
              > early 1900s, but much of the connection has been proven false.
              >
              > Thelema, Kabbalah, Samael Aun Woer, Eliphas..... none of this is
              > Gnosticism.
              >
              > PMCV




              So, in other words, you can't tell us how we might go about invoking
              our dark Lord?  How 'bout any good documentaries or movie
              recommendations that might be instructional in that regard?  ;-)

              Actually, since Baphometh mentioned being a fan of the cinema as
              well, it could be pointed out that we've discussed the Gnostic
              relevance of various films here as well.  Among those, I still think
              that _The Truman Show_ came closest to portraying an individual faced
              with overcoming the archontic control of his existence.  We've seen
              one aspect or another of Gnosticism represented in a number of films,
              but what would best capture the notion of The Ineffable?  Viewing 90
              minutes of blank screen?  I wonder how many of today's impatient,
              instant-gratification-seeking moviegoers would sit through THAT
              without starting a riot in the theater!  LOL

              Along more of a platonic vein, I notice another movie airing tonight
              (8:00pm and 1:00am Eastern) on the Independent Film Channel.  For
              anyone who hasn't seen it yet, you may get a kick out of _Hedwig and
              the Angry Inch_.  Even Elmoreb's speculation on how people are
              interpreting "Gnosticism" in the popular culture these days can be
              seen in how Tommy Gnosis steals and unwittingly bastardizes the
              material which Hedwig imparted to him.  If anyone out there is into
              the quasi-Gnostic musical genre, this one is terribly funny . . . as
              well as moving.

              Gerry






            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello Gerry ... Tommy Gnosis? Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 18, 2004
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                Hello Gerry

                On 11/18/04, you wrote:

                > Along more of a platonic vein, I notice another movie airing tonight
                > (8:00pm and 1:00am Eastern) on the Independent Film Channel. For
                > anyone who hasn't seen it yet, you may get a kick out of _Hedwig and
                > the Angry Inch_. Even Elmoreb's speculation on how people are
                > interpreting "Gnosticism" in the popular culture these days can be
                > seen in how Tommy Gnosis steals and unwittingly bastardizes the
                > material which Hedwig imparted to him. If anyone out there is into
                > the quasi-Gnostic musical genre, this one is terribly funny . . . as
                > well as moving.
                >
                > Gerry

                Tommy Gnosis?

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
              • pmcvflag
                Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if he had any understanding of Platonism ;) This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 19, 2004
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                  Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if he
                  had any understanding of Platonism ;)

                  This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                  technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no bones
                  about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that Gnostic
                  anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same time.

                  There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant on a
                  literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It made
                  me rethink my own influences and how practical applications could be
                  worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give for a
                  movie... believe me.

                  Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be conciously
                  influenced by Gnostic thought.

                  PMCV

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                  > Hello Gerry
                  >
                  > On 11/18/04, you wrote:
                  >
                  > > Along more of a platonic vein, I notice another movie airing
                  tonight
                  > > (8:00pm and 1:00am Eastern) on the Independent Film Channel. For
                  > > anyone who hasn't seen it yet, you may get a kick out of _Hedwig
                  and
                  > > the Angry Inch_. Even Elmoreb's speculation on how people are
                  > > interpreting "Gnosticism" in the popular culture these days can
                  be
                  > > seen in how Tommy Gnosis steals and unwittingly bastardizes the
                  > > material which Hedwig imparted to him. If anyone out there is
                  into
                  > > the quasi-Gnostic musical genre, this one is terribly
                  funny . . . as
                  > > well as moving.
                  > >
                  > > Gerry
                  >
                  > Tommy Gnosis?
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > --
                  > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                • Mike Leavitt
                  Hello pmcvflag ... Meatloaf? Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 20, 2004
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                    Hello pmcvflag

                    On 11/20/04, you wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if he
                    > had any understanding of Platonism ;)
                    >
                    > This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                    > technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no bones
                    > about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that Gnostic
                    > anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same time.
                    >
                    > There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant on a
                    > literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It made
                    > me rethink my own influences and how practical applications could be
                    > worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give for a
                    > movie... believe me.
                    >
                    > Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be conciously
                    > influenced by Gnostic thought.

                    Meatloaf?

                    Regards
                    --
                    Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                  • lady_caritas
                    ... bones ... made ... be ... Ah, now see, Mike,... shame on PMCV. He presented it wrong. One just might think he meant the main course meat dish, eh? No
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 20, 2004
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                      > Hello pmcvflag
                      >
                      > On 11/20/04, you wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if he
                      > > had any understanding of Platonism ;)
                      > >
                      > > This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                      > > technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no
                      bones
                      > > about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that Gnostic
                      > > anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same time.
                      > >
                      > > There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant on a
                      > > literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It
                      made
                      > > me rethink my own influences and how practical applications could
                      be
                      > > worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give for a
                      > > movie... believe me.
                      > >
                      > > Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be conciously
                      > > influenced by Gnostic thought.
                      >
                      > Meatloaf?
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > --
                      > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


                      Ah, now see, Mike,... shame on PMCV. He presented it wrong. One
                      just might think he meant the main course meat dish, eh? No way.

                      It should be: Meat Loaf.

                      http://www.meatloaf.net/

                      I know you just couldn't survive without this OT information. ;-)
                      Glad to oblige.

                      Cari
                    • Mike Leavitt
                      Hello lady_caritas ... Alll In The Family? Archie Bunker, et al? Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 20, 2004
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                        Hello lady_caritas

                        On 11/20/04, you wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                        >> Hello pmcvflag
                        >>
                        >> On 11/20/04, you wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if he
                        >> had any understanding of Platonism ;)
                        >>
                        >> This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                        >> technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no
                        > bones
                        >> > about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that Gnostic
                        >> > anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same time.
                        >> >
                        >> > There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant on a
                        >> > literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It
                        > made
                        >> > me rethink my own influences and how practical applications could
                        > be
                        >> > worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give for
                        >> > a movie... believe me.
                        >> >
                        >> > Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be conciously
                        >> > influenced by Gnostic thought.
                        >>
                        >> Meatloaf?
                        >>
                        >> Regards
                        >> --
                        >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                        >
                        >
                        > Ah, now see, Mike,... shame on PMCV. He presented it wrong. One
                        > just might think he meant the main course meat dish, eh? No way.
                        >
                        > It should be: Meat Loaf.
                        >
                        > http://www.meatloaf.net/
                        >
                        > I know you just couldn't survive without this OT information. ;-)
                        > Glad to oblige.
                        >
                        > Cari

                        Alll In The Family? Archie Bunker, et al?

                        Regards
                        --
                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                      • lady_caritas
                        ... he ... Gnostic ... time. ... on a ... could ... for ... conciously ... way. ... ) ... Um, no, dear. That would be Meathead. Now, why do I think you
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 20, 2004
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                          > Hello lady_caritas
                          >
                          > On 11/20/04, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                          wrote:
                          > >> Hello pmcvflag
                          > >>
                          > >> On 11/20/04, you wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if
                          he
                          > >> had any understanding of Platonism ;)
                          > >>
                          > >> This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                          > >> technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no
                          > > bones
                          > >> > about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that
                          Gnostic
                          > >> > anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same
                          time.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant
                          on a
                          > >> > literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It
                          > > made
                          > >> > me rethink my own influences and how practical applications
                          could
                          > > be
                          > >> > worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give
                          for
                          > >> > a movie... believe me.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be
                          conciously
                          > >> > influenced by Gnostic thought.
                          > >>
                          > >> Meatloaf?
                          > >>
                          > >> Regards
                          > >> --
                          > >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Ah, now see, Mike,... shame on PMCV. He presented it wrong. One
                          > > just might think he meant the main course meat dish, eh? No
                          way.
                          > >
                          > > It should be: Meat Loaf.
                          > >
                          > > http://www.meatloaf.net/
                          > >
                          > > I know you just couldn't survive without this OT information. ;-
                          )
                          > > Glad to oblige.
                          > >
                          > > Cari
                          >
                          > Alll In The Family? Archie Bunker, et al?
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > --
                          > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


                          Um, no, dear. That would be "Meathead." Now, why do I think you
                          already know that... ;-)

                          http://www.tvland.com/shows/aitf/actor4.jhtml


                          Archie Bunker *was* a character, quite the outrageous bigot. He had
                          some interesing thoughts on religion though:

                          "God don't make no mistakes - that's how he got to be God."

                          "It ain't supposed to make sense; it's faith. Faith is something that
                          you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."

                          ( http://www.ariga.com/frosties/bunkerarchie.shtml )



                          Cari
                        • annie
                          Paradise by the dashboard light? ;o) love from annie ... From: Mike Leavitt To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 11:55 AM
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 20, 2004
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                            Paradise by the dashboard light?   ;o)
                            love from annie
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 11:55 AM
                            Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: QUESTIONS...

                            Hello pmcvflag

                            On 11/20/04, you wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if he
                            > had any understanding of Platonism ;)
                            >
                            > This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                            > technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no bones
                            > about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that Gnostic
                            > anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same time.
                            >
                            > There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant on a
                            > literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It made
                            > me rethink my own influences and how practical applications could be
                            > worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give for a
                            > movie... believe me.
                            >
                            > Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be conciously
                            > influenced by Gnostic thought.

                            Meatloaf?

                            Regards
                            --
                            Mike Leavitt  ac998@...




                          • Mike Leavitt
                            Hello lady_caritas ... The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
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                              Hello lady_caritas

                              On 11/21/04, you wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                              >> Hello lady_caritas
                              >>
                              >> On 11/20/04, you wrote:
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>> --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                              > wrote:
                              >>>> Hello pmcvflag
                              >>>>
                              >>>> On 11/20/04, you wrote:
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Damn right, Mike.... Tommy Gnosis is what Meatloaf would be if
                              > he
                              >>>> had any understanding of Platonism ;)
                              >>>>
                              >>>> This is a pretty darn good movie. Low budget, and more
                              >>>> technically "Platonist" than "Gnostic".... but I have made no
                              >>> bones
                              >>>>> about the fact that I am also perhaps more Platonist that
                              > Gnostic
                              >>>>> anyway *hehe*. The music is cheesy, and skilled at the same
                              > time.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> There are also sexual elements that I think the author meant
                              > on a
                              >> >> > literal level, but could also be taken on a literary level. It
                              >>> made
                              >>>>> me rethink my own influences and how practical applications
                              > could
                              >>> be
                              >>>>> worked into it. That is one of the best reviews I could give
                              > for
                              >>>>> a movie... believe me.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Second only to the Truman Show in what I think may be
                              > conciously
                              >>>>> influenced by Gnostic thought.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Meatloaf?
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Regards
                              >>>> --
                              >>>> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> > Ah, now see, Mike,... shame on PMCV. He presented it wrong. One
                              >> > just might think he meant the main course meat dish, eh? No
                              > way.
                              >> >
                              >> > It should be: Meat Loaf.
                              >> >
                              >> > http://www.meatloaf.net/
                              >> >
                              >> > I know you just couldn't survive without this OT information. ;-
                              > )
                              >>> Glad to oblige.
                              >>>
                              >>> Cari
                              >>
                              >> Alll In The Family? Archie Bunker, et al?
                              >>
                              >> Regards
                              >> --
                              >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                              >
                              >
                              > Um, no, dear. That would be "Meathead." Now, why do I think you
                              > already know that... ;-)
                              >
                              > http://www.tvland.com/shows/aitf/actor4.jhtml
                              >
                              >
                              > Archie Bunker *was* a character, quite the outrageous bigot. He had
                              > some interesing thoughts on religion though:
                              >
                              > "God don't make no mistakes - that's how he got to be God."
                              >
                              > "It ain't supposed to make sense; it's faith. Faith is something
                              > that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."
                              >
                              > ( http://www.ariga.com/frosties/bunkerarchie.shtml )
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Cari

                              The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his
                              picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                              right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I sent
                              the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make the
                              site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                              Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....

                              Regards
                              --
                              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                            • lady_caritas
                              ... Gosh, sorry about that, Mike. Actually, if you want, you could just plug Meat Loaf in a search engine. (That other one was just a fan club.) There are
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his
                                > picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                > right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I sent
                                > the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make the
                                > site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                                > Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                >
                                > Regards
                                > --
                                > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


                                Gosh, sorry about that, Mike. Actually, if you want, you could just
                                plug "Meat Loaf" in a search engine. (That other one was just a fan
                                club.) There are many more sites, and you might find one that will
                                open properly in your browser.


                                Cari
                              • Gerry
                                ... Geeez, Mike, you must have been pretty busy since the 70 s . . . , but if Two Out of Three Ain t Bad and the _Rocky Horror Picture Show_ don t ring any
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his
                                  > picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                  > right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I sent
                                  > the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make the
                                  > site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                                  > Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                  >
                                  > Regards
                                  > --
                                  > Mike Leavitt




                                  Geeez, Mike, you must have been pretty busy since the 70's . . . ,
                                  but if "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" and the _Rocky Horror Picture
                                  Show_ don't ring any bells for you, then Cari's link may not help you
                                  anyway.

                                  Going back to the beginning, here's a very brief plot outline for the
                                  movie I mentioned earlier:

                                  "A transexual punk rock girl from East Berlin tours the US with her
                                  rock band as she tells her life story and follows [i.e. "stalks"] the
                                  ex-boyfriend/bandmate who stole her songs."
                                  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248845/

                                  The "ex-boyfriend" there is a reference to the character of Tommy
                                  Gnosis, whom I described previously as stealing and bastardizing
                                  Hedwig's music. There is a point in the film where the protagonist
                                  realizes not only that Tommy has abandoned her in pursuit of his own
                                  stardom, but that he isn't fully aware of the meaning of the lyrics,
                                  for example, changing the name of the god "Osiris" to "Cyrus" in the
                                  song "Origin of Love." This is what I was alluding to with regards
                                  to popular understanding of "Gnosticism." Tommy managed to make his
                                  stage name (Gnosis) a pop icon, even though he was still somewhat
                                  ignorant of the actual meaning of the lyrics which Hedwig had
                                  provided him. As a proponent of the importance of meaning, I suppose
                                  that part of the film really stuck in my craw.

                                  Anyway, it was interesting to see PMCV's mention of Meat Loaf. I'm
                                  sure he'll clarify if I read him incorrectly, but the reference might
                                  have come from the fact that this film, like the Rocky Horror Picture
                                  Show (in which Meat Loaf appeared), was also a campy production. He
                                  might have also found a similarity in musical styles. In fact, Meat
                                  Loaf had considered performing a couple songs from the "Hedwig"
                                  soundtrack on an album he was working on at the time, but ended up
                                  not having enough room, if I recall correctly.

                                  For the record, "campy" is not to be taken as a disparaging comment
                                  above. On the contrary, I think it lends to the endearing humor of
                                  the film, which also conveys the profound story of an individual's
                                  quest for "wholeness." As I said earlier, the movie was both funny
                                  and moving——or——as PMCV described the music, it was
                                  simultaneously "cheesy" and "skilled." Absolutely, and the genius
                                  that was responsible for that lay in the talent of John Cameron
                                  Mitchell and Stephen Trask, the latter supplying not only the musical
                                  score for the production, but the vocals for Tommy Gnosis as well.

                                  Honestly, even if I hadn't appreciated the movie for its
                                  philosophical merit, I'd probably still recommend it to friends just
                                  for the dialogue and visuals . . . especially in the Gummi-Bärchen
                                  scene . . . or perhaps for any of the references to young Hedwig
                                  (Hansel) having to play in the oven! ;-)

                                  Gerry
                                • Gerry
                                  ... If it will show you the fog I ve been in lately, I really couldn t figure out what any of this had to do with the Old Testament, or as you put it, this OT
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "It ain't supposed to make sense; it's faith. Faith is something
                                    > that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."
                                    >
                                    > ( http://www.ariga.com/frosties/bunkerarchie.shtml )
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Cari



                                    If it will show you the fog I've been in lately, I really couldn't
                                    figure out what any of this had to do with the Old Testament, or as
                                    you put it, "this OT information." While I think I finally figured
                                    that one out, I would probably have never made the potential
                                    connection between what PMCV wrote and _All in the Family_. I think
                                    I'm catching up all around now!

                                    I had previously enjoyed Archie's adage, "Patience is a virgin," but
                                    the quote you reminded us above concerning "faith" is my new favorite.
                                    ;-)

                                    Gerry
                                  • Mike Leavitt
                                    Hello lady_caritas ... I m not so anxious to know that I can t wait until tomorro, had I really wanted to know sooner, I could have forwarded it to the wife,
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello lady_caritas

                                      On 11/22/04, you wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his
                                      >> picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                      >> right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I sent
                                      >> the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make
                                      >> the site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                                      >> Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                      >>
                                      >> Regards
                                      >> --
                                      >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Gosh, sorry about that, Mike. Actually, if you want, you could just
                                      > plug "Meat Loaf" in a search engine. (That other one was just a fan
                                      > club.) There are many more sites, and you might find one that will
                                      > open properly in your browser.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Cari

                                      I'm not so anxious to know that I can't wait until tomorro, had I
                                      really wanted to know sooner, I could have forwarded it to the wife,
                                      she uses foxfire and has IE if it wouldn't work.

                                      Regards
                                      --
                                      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                    • Mike Leavitt
                                      Hello Gerry ... My only memeory of the Rocky Horror thing was watching people line up outside this theater that played it for five years straight. I was never
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Gerry

                                        On 11/22/04, you wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his
                                        >> picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                        >> right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I sent
                                        >> the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make
                                        >> the site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                                        >> Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                        >>
                                        >> Regards
                                        >> --
                                        >> Mike Leavitt
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Geeez, Mike, you must have been pretty busy since the 70's . . . ,
                                        > but if "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" and the _Rocky Horror Picture
                                        > Show_ don't ring any bells for you, then Cari's link may not help
                                        > you anyway.
                                        >
                                        > Going back to the beginning, here's a very brief plot outline for
                                        > the movie I mentioned earlier:
                                        >
                                        > "A transexual punk rock girl from East Berlin tours the US with her
                                        > rock band as she tells her life story and follows [i.e. "stalks"]
                                        > the ex-boyfriend/bandmate who stole her songs."
                                        > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248845/
                                        >
                                        > The "ex-boyfriend" there is a reference to the character of Tommy
                                        > Gnosis, whom I described previously as stealing and bastardizing
                                        > Hedwig's music. There is a point in the film where the protagonist
                                        > realizes not only that Tommy has abandoned her in pursuit of his own
                                        > stardom, but that he isn't fully aware of the meaning of the lyrics,
                                        > for example, changing the name of the god "Osiris" to "Cyrus" in the
                                        > song "Origin of Love." This is what I was alluding to with regards
                                        > to popular understanding of "Gnosticism." Tommy managed to make his
                                        > stage name (Gnosis) a pop icon, even though he was still somewhat
                                        > ignorant of the actual meaning of the lyrics which Hedwig had
                                        > provided him. As a proponent of the importance of meaning, I suppose
                                        > that part of the film really stuck in my craw.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, it was interesting to see PMCV's mention of Meat Loaf. I'm
                                        > sure he'll clarify if I read him incorrectly, but the reference
                                        > might have come from the fact that this film, like the Rocky Horror
                                        > Picture Show (in which Meat Loaf appeared), was also a campy
                                        > production. He might have also found a similarity in musical styles.
                                        > In fact, Meat Loaf had considered performing a couple songs from the
                                        > "Hedwig" soundtrack on an album he was working on at the time, but
                                        > ended up not having enough room, if I recall correctly.
                                        >
                                        > For the record, "campy" is not to be taken as a disparaging comment
                                        > above. On the contrary, I think it lends to the endearing humor of
                                        > the film, which also conveys the profound story of an individual's
                                        > quest for "wholeness." As I said earlier, the movie was both funny
                                        > and moving
                                        >
                                        > Honestly, even if I hadn't appreciated the movie for its
                                        > philosophical merit, I'd probably still recommend it to friends just
                                        > for the dialogue and visuals . . . especially in the Gummi-Bärchen
                                        > scene . . . or perhaps for any of the references to young Hedwig
                                        > (Hansel) having to play in the oven! ;-)
                                        >
                                        > Gerry

                                        My only memeory of the Rocky Horror thing was watching people line up
                                        outside this theater that played it for five years straight. I was
                                        never into the underground movie thing and never saw it, and never
                                        cared to. Oh well, different strokes....

                                        Regards
                                        --
                                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                      • Mike Leavitt
                                        Hello annie ... 58, and given the associations of this character I would know if I had ever had the slightest interest in the underground movie scene. Regards
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hello annie

                                          On 11/22/04, you wrote:

                                          > If you don't mind me asking, Mike, how old are you? Just curious
                                          > related to the mystery of Meat Loaf. love~from~annie

                                          58, and given the associations of this character I would know if I had
                                          ever had the slightest interest in the underground movie scene.

                                          Regards
                                          --
                                          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                        • annie
                                          If you don t mind me asking, Mike, how old are you? Just curious related to the mystery of Meat Loaf. love~from~annie ... From: lady_caritas To:
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            If you don't mind me asking, Mike, how  old are you?  Just curious related to the mystery of Meat Loaf.
                                            love~from~annie
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 6:23 PM
                                            Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: QUESTIONS...


                                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me his
                                            > picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                            > right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was.  I sent
                                            > the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make the
                                            > site work so I will then know who he was.  He looks like Jeb
                                            > Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                            >
                                            > Regards
                                            > --
                                            > Mike Leavitt  ac998@l...


                                            Gosh, sorry about that, Mike.  Actually, if you want, you could just
                                            plug "Meat Loaf" in a search engine.  (That other one was just a fan
                                            club.)  There are many more sites, and you might find one that will
                                            open properly in your browser.


                                            Cari




                                          • Gerry
                                            ... Same here, Mike. I wouldn t have any familiarity with the RHPS phenomenon if it hadn t been for my sister and a couple friends who braved the lines. His
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 21, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > My only memeory of the Rocky Horror thing was watching people line
                                              > up outside this theater that played it for five years straight. I
                                              > was never into the underground movie thing and never saw it, and
                                              > never cared to. Oh well, different strokes....
                                              >
                                              > Regards
                                              > --
                                              > Mike Leavitt



                                              Same here, Mike. I wouldn't have any familiarity with the RHPS
                                              phenomenon if it hadn't been for my sister and a couple friends who
                                              braved the lines. His song DID get a lot of airtime back then
                                              though, and I listened to a lot of radio at the time.

                                              It's just a darned shame that something like "Hedwig" wasn't released
                                              back then instead. For those of us here who weren't schooled in the
                                              ways of neo-platonism and Gnostic thought at an early age, a film
                                              like that might have been quite a timesaver.

                                              Again, the question might center around how much good can come out of
                                              the popular presentation of such subjects. We can suppose that there
                                              would be some out there who would discover Plato's _Symposium_ as a
                                              result of a production like that, so surely that could be a good
                                              thing——especially if they otherwise found the Classics to be too
                                              stodgy. At the same time, now that so much of this formerly obscure
                                              material is readily available on the shelves of Anytown's bookstore,
                                              it's scary to think how many people might misinterpret the meaning of
                                              such things as making the inner like the outer, and making male and
                                              female into a single one, etc. It ain't about gettin' a sex change.

                                              Gerry
                                            • lady_caritas
                                              ... his ... just ... fan ... Well, in any case, this following link might be a bit more informative than the other one: ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001533/ )
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 22, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                                > Hello lady_caritas
                                                >
                                                > On 11/22/04, you wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > >>
                                                > >> The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me
                                                his
                                                > >> picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                                > >> right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I sent
                                                > >> the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make
                                                > >> the site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                                                > >> Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Regards
                                                > >> --
                                                > >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Gosh, sorry about that, Mike. Actually, if you want, you could
                                                just
                                                > > plug "Meat Loaf" in a search engine. (That other one was just a
                                                fan
                                                > > club.) There are many more sites, and you might find one that will
                                                > > open properly in your browser.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Cari
                                                >
                                                > I'm not so anxious to know that I can't wait until tomorro, had I
                                                > really wanted to know sooner, I could have forwarded it to the wife,
                                                > she uses foxfire and has IE if it wouldn't work.
                                                >
                                                > Regards
                                                > --
                                                > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


                                                Well, in any case, this following link might be a bit more
                                                informative than the other one:

                                                ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001533/ )

                                                *bio*: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001533/bio



                                                Cari
                                              • Mike Leavitt
                                                Hello Gerry ... Gee you re right, let the trans-gender people get hold of it and....:-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 22, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hello Gerry

                                                  On 11/22/04, you wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> My only memeory of the Rocky Horror thing was watching people line
                                                  >> up outside this theater that played it for five years straight. I
                                                  >> was never into the underground movie thing and never saw it, and
                                                  >> never cared to. Oh well, different strokes....
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Regards
                                                  >> --
                                                  >> Mike Leavitt
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Same here, Mike. I wouldn't have any familiarity with the RHPS
                                                  > phenomenon if it hadn't been for my sister and a couple friends who
                                                  > braved the lines. His song DID get a lot of airtime back then
                                                  > though, and I listened to a lot of radio at the time.
                                                  >
                                                  > It's just a darned shame that something like "Hedwig" wasn't
                                                  > released back then instead. For those of us here who weren't
                                                  > schooled in the ways of neo-platonism and Gnostic thought at an
                                                  > early age, a film like that might have been quite a timesaver.
                                                  >
                                                  > Again, the question might center around how much good can come out
                                                  > of the popular presentation of such subjects. We can suppose that
                                                  > there would be some out there who would discover Plato's _Symposium_
                                                  > as a result of a production like that, so surely that could be a
                                                  > good thing
                                                  >
                                                  > Gerry

                                                  Gee you're right, let the trans-gender people get hold of it
                                                  and....:-)

                                                  Regards
                                                  --
                                                  Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                                • Mike Leavitt
                                                  Hello lady_caritas ... Yes, very informative. I had heard the name, but that was about it. I m a bit surprised I didn t know who he was, even with my general
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 22, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hello lady_caritas

                                                    On 11/22/04, you wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                                    >> Hello lady_caritas
                                                    >>
                                                    >> On 11/22/04, you wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                                                    > wrote:
                                                    >> >>
                                                    >> >> The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me
                                                    > his
                                                    >> >> picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you
                                                    >> >> were right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was.
                                                    >> >> I sent the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that
                                                    >> >> will make the site work so I will then know who he was. He looks
                                                    >> >> like Jeb Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                                    >> >>
                                                    >> >> Regards
                                                    >> >> --
                                                    >> >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> Gosh, sorry about that, Mike. Actually, if you want, you could
                                                    > just
                                                    >>> plug "Meat Loaf" in a search engine. (That other one was just a
                                                    > fan
                                                    >> > club.) There are many more sites, and you might find one that
                                                    >> > will open properly in your browser.
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> >
                                                    >> > Cari
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I'm not so anxious to know that I can't wait until tomorro, had I
                                                    >> really wanted to know sooner, I could have forwarded it to the
                                                    >> wife, she uses foxfire and has IE if it wouldn't work.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Regards
                                                    >> --
                                                    >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Well, in any case, this following link might be a bit more
                                                    > informative than the other one:
                                                    >
                                                    > ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001533/ )
                                                    >
                                                    > *bio*: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001533/bio

                                                    Yes, very informative. I had heard the name, but that was about it.
                                                    I'm a bit surprised I didn't know who he was, even with my general
                                                    disinterest in what he did.

                                                    Regards
                                                    --
                                                    Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                                  • pmcvflag
                                                    Oh, yes, yes, Gerry, that is exactly what I meant... I mean, the musical style, compared to what we are often used to hearing in Meat Loaf, is so similar. To
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 22, 2004
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Oh, yes, yes, Gerry, that is exactly what I meant... I mean, the
                                                      musical style, compared to what we are often used to hearing in Meat
                                                      Loaf, is so similar. To me, Meat Loaf sounds like he belongs in
                                                      musical theatre (though I don't know enough about him to know if he
                                                      was involved with this genre outside of Rocky Horror)

                                                      More to the point, I think the people from our group here will
                                                      pretty quickly pick out the Platonist connections. I keep thinking I
                                                      will take a second look at it myself.

                                                      PMCV


                                                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The meat loaf site locked up my first browser, and just gave me
                                                      his
                                                      > > picture and large black areas on the other two, so while you were
                                                      > > right about meathead, I still don't know who meatloaf was. I
                                                      sent
                                                      > > the link to work to look at it in IE, and I guess that will make
                                                      the
                                                      > > site work so I will then know who he was. He looks like Jeb
                                                      > > Clampet's son in The Beverly Hillbillies, but....
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Regards
                                                      > > --
                                                      > > Mike Leavitt
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Geeez, Mike, you must have been pretty busy since the 70's . . . ,
                                                      > but if "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" and the _Rocky Horror Picture
                                                      > Show_ don't ring any bells for you, then Cari's link may not help
                                                      you
                                                      > anyway.
                                                      >
                                                      > Going back to the beginning, here's a very brief plot outline for
                                                      the
                                                      > movie I mentioned earlier:
                                                      >
                                                      > "A transexual punk rock girl from East Berlin tours the US with
                                                      her
                                                      > rock band as she tells her life story and follows [i.e. "stalks"]
                                                      the
                                                      > ex-boyfriend/bandmate who stole her songs."
                                                      > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248845/
                                                      >
                                                      > The "ex-boyfriend" there is a reference to the character of Tommy
                                                      > Gnosis, whom I described previously as stealing and bastardizing
                                                      > Hedwig's music. There is a point in the film where the
                                                      protagonist
                                                      > realizes not only that Tommy has abandoned her in pursuit of his
                                                      own
                                                      > stardom, but that he isn't fully aware of the meaning of the
                                                      lyrics,
                                                      > for example, changing the name of the god "Osiris" to "Cyrus" in
                                                      the
                                                      > song "Origin of Love." This is what I was alluding to with
                                                      regards
                                                      > to popular understanding of "Gnosticism." Tommy managed to make
                                                      his
                                                      > stage name (Gnosis) a pop icon, even though he was still somewhat
                                                      > ignorant of the actual meaning of the lyrics which Hedwig had
                                                      > provided him. As a proponent of the importance of meaning, I
                                                      suppose
                                                      > that part of the film really stuck in my craw.
                                                      >
                                                      > Anyway, it was interesting to see PMCV's mention of Meat Loaf.
                                                      I'm
                                                      > sure he'll clarify if I read him incorrectly, but the reference
                                                      might
                                                      > have come from the fact that this film, like the Rocky Horror
                                                      Picture
                                                      > Show (in which Meat Loaf appeared), was also a campy production.
                                                      He
                                                      > might have also found a similarity in musical styles. In fact,
                                                      Meat
                                                      > Loaf had considered performing a couple songs from the "Hedwig"
                                                      > soundtrack on an album he was working on at the time, but ended up
                                                      > not having enough room, if I recall correctly.
                                                      >
                                                      > For the record, "campy" is not to be taken as a disparaging
                                                      comment
                                                      > above. On the contrary, I think it lends to the endearing humor
                                                      of
                                                      > the film, which also conveys the profound story of an individual's
                                                      > quest for "wholeness." As I said earlier, the movie was both
                                                      funny
                                                      > and moving——or——as PMCV described the music, it was
                                                      > simultaneously "cheesy" and "skilled." Absolutely, and the genius
                                                      > that was responsible for that lay in the talent of John Cameron
                                                      > Mitchell and Stephen Trask, the latter supplying not only the
                                                      musical
                                                      > score for the production, but the vocals for Tommy Gnosis as well.
                                                      >
                                                      > Honestly, even if I hadn't appreciated the movie for its
                                                      > philosophical merit, I'd probably still recommend it to friends
                                                      just
                                                      > for the dialogue and visuals . . . especially in the Gummi-Bärchen
                                                      > scene . . . or perhaps for any of the references to young Hedwig
                                                      > (Hansel) having to play in the oven! ;-)
                                                      >
                                                      > Gerry
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