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Re: something to think about

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  • Mike Leavitt
    Hello pmcvflag ... As phrased, the point seems more Tauest than Gnostic, not that that necessarily invalidates it as also Gnostic. OTOH this world is at best
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 11, 2004
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      Hello pmcvflag

      On 11/12/04, you wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hey Annie, let me try to make my question a little more direct
      > here... using your post as a counterpoint.
      >
      >>>> "Yes, I certainly do, of course not as 'god' but in the sense
      > of 'The'. There is a common thread which runs through all things,
      > by virtue of the spirit. Once the aim is focused on the spirit, it
      > can be seen everywhere."<<<<
      >
      > What you seem to be talking about is called "pantheism". Are you
      > sure that historical Gnostics believed that the true spiritual
      > source is in everything?
      >
      >>>> "From reading the Nag Hammadi, I have no doubt the original
      > gnostics believed this, as well. The reason I say this is because of
      > their portrayal of the serpent in the garden being the cleverest
      > beast and the 'instructor.' To one not yet prepared to discern all
      > things, the snake is a trickster, and a liar. But the second time
      > one meets that snake, it's a friend, one that is easily understood.
      > To get past that point also makes the spirit evident in all things,
      > revealing everything as an opportunity to learn."<<<<
      >
      > This is actually not true of all Gnostics. In fact, there is part of
      > your point that is not internally consistant here. You say later
      > that you are not sure if the "Sethian" outline is really Gnostic,
      > you also say the Gnostics have a positive view of the serpent, but
      > let me point out that the tendancy to view the serpent in positive
      > terms does not hold out in Valentinian texts.
      >
      > Can you point out how you see getting past the view of good and evil
      > means that the "spirit is evident in all things"? I don't think this
      > logically follows, and I personally don't think that historical
      > Gnostics agreed with this notion.
      >
      > I do think your point is very interesting, but somehow it seems to
      > be an itch... either I am misunderstanding you, or perhaps we need
      > to look further to see if we really find these ideas in Gnostic
      > texts.

      As phrased, the point seems more Tauest than Gnostic, not that that
      necessarily invalidates it as also Gnostic. OTOH this world is at
      best only a necessary evil, even to the Valentinians, so....
    • pmcvflag
      BTW, Annie.... ... perhaps the Sethian type who saw the demiurge as evil, but perhaps that means they weren t quite complete gnostics in the pure sense of the
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 11, 2004
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        BTW, Annie....

        >>>"So--the gnostics surely saw a lesson in everything, except
        perhaps the Sethian type who saw the demiurge as evil, but perhaps
        that means they weren't quite complete gnostics in the pure sense of
        the word. The Valentinians saw him as necessary and good in his
        limited way. Or am I getting them reversed? You get my drift."<<<<

        I don't think it is so much about getting it reversed here, as it is
        a matter of translating the meanings and assuming all groups within
        the categories fit nicely.

        Also, I am not sure I understood how you come to the conclusion of
        whether one group is "gnostics in the pure sense" based on this
        particular function. Perhaps you could explain a bit more?

        PMCV
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Mike.... ... that necessarily invalidates it as also Gnostic. OTOH this world is at best only a necessary evil, even to the Valentinians, so....
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 11, 2004
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          Hey Mike....

          >>"As phrased, the point seems more Tauest than Gnostic, not that
          that necessarily invalidates it as also Gnostic. OTOH this world is
          at best only a necessary evil, even to the Valentinians, so...."<<<

          Kinda my point also. My point here is more about trying to question
          and gain context than to really specifically deal with the exact
          point. You all know it is our job as "mods" ;) . I don't want any
          assumptions to go unchallenged if there is some common debate as to
          the validity of that belief as it pertains to "Gnosticism".

          PMCV
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