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Re: Salvation, Hope, Do non-gnostics enter the Kindom

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  • pmcvflag
    Annie.... ... original message, but I couldn t. Hopefully you recall what I m referring to--
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 22, 2004
      Annie....

      >>>"That's the whole point behind 'The', for me! I tried to find the
      original message, but I couldn't. Hopefully you recall what I'm
      referring to--"<<<<

      I do remember the posts you are talking about, and the way in which
      you coined the term. I think that helps me understand why you meant
      to coin the term, and I also believe you have the point as to why
      Gnostics have thier own terms for this... such as "Bythos" (which
      means "void").

      >>>"The more I know and understand, the less I can aptly refer or
      refer at all to 'The'. 'God' in the traditional sense really doesn't
      mean much to me, except for the type of synthetic idols and icons.
      It's hard to describe what you mean, very true, when you don't know
      the particular meaning of a word to another person."<<<<

      Exactly!!! And, again, perhaps that helps you to understand why we
      are a little suspicious here of people who refuse to accept anything
      outside that terminology of "Biblical" exegesis (especially when it
      comes in spite of repeated warnings that our focus of TRADITIONAL
      forms of Gnosticism is often quite direct in warning against doing
      so). It is not that Gnostics don't value "Orthodox" Biblical texts in
      an offhand way, it is that Gnosticism recognizes something outside
      the commonly undestood version of that as well.

      >>>"I like 'The' because it describes and defines nothing, yet is not
      common or impersonal, and it represents ultimate supremacy in its
      area (such as saying The Truth, or The Big Day) and so The with
      nothing following is the ultimate supremacy of everything. It is best
      word I find to represent what I don't conceive of, as it were, when
      there is the need to make a reference to that which is
      unnameable."<<<<

      GOOD Annie, very heartening, I feel like you are demonstrating that
      you are reflecting the point (and to me that is more important than
      agreing with the point)... let me only add that in fact this is not
      even "the ultimate supremacy". Of course, I think you get that
      already. And, this is not even the "Love that Jesus teaches us of the
      Father". Or anything of that sort. May I only suggest one thing
      here.... that we try to outline this in traditional Gnostic terms. I
      totally understand the reason you like the therm "The", but
      traditional Gnostics already have terms for this. If you wish to
      think of it as "THE", well, that is fine. However, in order to help
      remove confusion.... let's try to outline it in the way that Gnostics
      do, just for the sake of the "lingo" here. Maybe that doesn't sound
      important to you, I would understand that, but just for the sake of
      conversation we do want to understand this message in the Gnostic
      context. I already feel like you are understanding that point a bit
      more (including why we have a strick focus here).... so I only state
      it for those who may be unsure.

      PMCV
    • annie
      Good then, we are understanding each other. I don t mind at all complying with the group accepted terminology, because it is necessary. But I m still not
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 22, 2004
        Good then, we are understanding each other.  I don't mind at all complying with the group accepted terminology, because it is necessary.  But I'm still not real sure what the term here is for what I call 'The.'  The Pleroma is all that I can think of, at this point. 
        And actually, the truth of it is, I probably won't have much cause to talk about the unnameable anyway, so it could be considered a unnecessary inquiry.  That wasn't the purpose of my post, anyway, as I'm sure you realize.  I just wanted to say 'hey, we're on the same page, aren't we?'
        So--good enough.
         
        Your music is awesome, I have to say.  It is undescribable in its effect upon one's inner workings, at least for me.   Much like the tonal expression of the fibonacci sequence, which I'm sure you're familiar with. 
         
        love from annie
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: pmcvflag
        Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:19 AM
        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Salvation, Hope, Do non-gnostics enter the Kindom

        Annie....

        >>>"That's the whole point behind 'The', for me!  I tried to find the
        original message, but I couldn't.  Hopefully you recall what I'm
        referring to--"<<<<

        I do remember the posts you are talking about, and the way in which
        you coined the term. I think that helps me understand why you meant
        to coin the term, and I also believe you have the point as to why
        Gnostics have thier own terms for this... such as "Bythos" (which
        means "void").

        >>>"The more I know and understand, the less I can aptly refer or
        refer at all to 'The'.  'God' in the traditional sense really doesn't
        mean much to me, except for the type of synthetic idols and icons. 
        It's hard to describe what you mean, very true, when you don't know
        the particular meaning of a word to another person."<<<<

        Exactly!!! And, again, perhaps that helps you to understand why we
        are a little suspicious here of people who refuse to accept anything
        outside that terminology of "Biblical" exegesis (especially when it
        comes in spite of repeated warnings that our focus of TRADITIONAL
        forms of Gnosticism is often quite direct in warning against doing
        so). It is not that Gnostics don't value "Orthodox" Biblical texts in
        an offhand way, it is that Gnosticism recognizes something outside
        the commonly undestood version of that as well.

        >>>"I like 'The' because it describes and defines nothing, yet is not
        common or impersonal, and it represents ultimate supremacy in its
        area (such as saying The Truth, or The Big Day) and so The with
        nothing following is the ultimate supremacy of everything. It is best
        word I find to represent what I don't conceive of, as it were, when
        there is the need to make a reference to that which is
        unnameable."<<<<

        GOOD Annie, very heartening, I feel like you are demonstrating that
        you are reflecting the point (and to me that is more important than
        agreing with the point)... let me only add that in fact this is not
        even "the ultimate supremacy". Of course, I think you get that
        already. And, this is not even the "Love that Jesus teaches us of the
        Father". Or anything of that sort. May I only suggest one thing
        here.... that we try to outline this in traditional Gnostic terms. I
        totally understand the reason you like the therm "The", but
        traditional Gnostics already have terms for this. If you wish to
        think of it as "THE", well, that is fine. However, in order to help
        remove confusion.... let's try to outline it in the way that Gnostics
        do, just for the sake of the "lingo" here. Maybe that doesn't sound
        important to you, I would understand that, but just for the sake of
        conversation we do want to understand this message in the Gnostic
        context. I already feel like you are understanding that point a bit
        more (including why we have a strick focus here).... so I only state
        it for those who may be unsure.

        PMCV


      • pmcvflag
        Annie... ... complying with the group accepted terminology, because it is necessary. But I m still not real sure what the term here is for what I call The.
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 23, 2004
          Annie...

          >>>"Good then, we are understanding each other. I don't mind at all
          complying with the group accepted terminology, because it is
          necessary. But I'm still not real sure what the term here is for
          what I call 'The.' The Pleroma is all that I can think of, at this
          point."<<<

          Yes, I do think we understand each other in principle.... but there
          is again some difference in lingo. The Pleroma (fullness) is in fact
          something else entirely. The "Pleroma" would better be talked about
          as the conceptual universe, as opposed to the physical). The
          true "Father" is not the pleroma, it is something outside the pleroma.

          >>>"And actually, the truth of it is, I probably won't have much
          cause to talk about the unnameable anyway, so it could be considered
          a unnecessary inquiry. That wasn't the purpose of my post, anyway,
          as I'm sure you realize. I just wanted to say 'hey, we're on the
          same page, aren't we?' So--good enough."<<<

          You are right there. I mean, honestly, we are so often trying to deal
          with the concepts that lead up to that fact that it would seem we
          should not have been dealing with that yet. On the other hand.... we
          come back to the subject often. After all, it is the point
          of "Gnosis".

          >>>"Your music is awesome, I have to say. It is undescribable in its
          effect upon one's inner workings, at least for me. Much like the
          tonal expression of the fibonacci sequence, which I'm sure you're
          familiar with."<<<

          Thanx *blush*, well I only posted it so others might feel ok to post
          their own stuff after the conversation a while ago on "creativity". :)

          PMCV
        • annie
          I knew that about the Pleroma, although when I posted this I had obviously forgotten the difference. That s still kind of hard to see, for me, probably why I
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 23, 2004
            I knew that about the Pleroma, although when I posted this I had obviously forgotten the difference.  That's still kind of hard to see, for me, probably why I forgot it.  It's not something I know yet.
            love from annie
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: pmcvflag
            Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 11:37 PM
            Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Salvation, Hope, Do non-gnostics enter the Kindom

            Annie...

            >>>"Good then, we are understanding each other.  I don't mind at all
            complying with the group accepted terminology, because it is
            necessary.  But I'm still not real sure what the term here is for
            what I call 'The.'  The Pleroma is all that I can think of, at this
            point."<<< 

            Yes, I do think we understand each other in principle.... but there
            is again some difference in lingo. The Pleroma (fullness) is in fact
            something else entirely. The "Pleroma" would better be talked about
            as the conceptual universe, as opposed to the physical). The
            true "Father" is not the pleroma, it is something outside the pleroma.

            >>>"And actually, the truth of it is, I probably won't have much
            cause to talk about the unnameable anyway, so it could be considered
            a unnecessary inquiry.  That wasn't the purpose of my post, anyway,
            as I'm sure you realize.  I just wanted to say 'hey, we're on the
            same page, aren't we?' So--good enough."<<<

            You are right there. I mean, honestly, we are so often trying to deal
            with the concepts that lead up to that fact that it would seem we
            should not have been dealing with that yet. On the other hand.... we
            come back to the subject often. After all, it is the point
            of "Gnosis".

            >>>"Your music is awesome, I have to say.  It is undescribable in its
            effect upon one's inner workings, at least for me.   Much like the
            tonal expression of the fibonacci sequence, which I'm sure you're
            familiar with."<<<

            Thanx *blush*, well I only posted it so others might feel ok to post
            their own stuff after the conversation a while ago on "creativity". :)

            PMCV


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