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Re: Clement of Alexandria

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  • Gerry
    ... Ahhh. Seems I got your point and missed the metaphor, which is all the more tragic since I made use of it myself in speaking of the amalgam that *was*
    Message 1 of 61 , Sep 1, 2004
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > [...]
      > So, I am with you when you say that you see Clement as a
      > heresiologist, and an orthodox believer. Though he used a Gnostic
      > lingo, it was as a refutation.... so, in answer to your querry...
      >
      > >>>"I think my train of thought jumped track on your last statement
      > there. Are you speaking of Clement's "Christian" home, or
      > his "Platonist" home?"<<<
      >
      > Both, since he seemed to view Platonism as a sort of imperfect
      > spinoff of the supposed Jewish origins. . . .
      >



      Ahhh. Seems I got your point and missed the metaphor, which is all
      the more tragic since I made use of it myself in speaking of the
      amalgam that *was* Augustine's "home." Especially in light of recent
      conversations, I regret trying to look for a solution to that
      misunderstanding in terms of such black and white polarity. I
      suppose I could say that the demiurge made me do it, but I'd hate for
      anyone to take me literally.

      Gerry
    • annie
      I tend to see it more as the latter. If you take this as Christ being the Logos, and John the B being the demiurge (or rather their representations), then
      Message 61 of 61 , Sep 24, 2004
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        I tend to see it more as the latter.  If you take this as Christ being the Logos, and John the B being the demiurge (or rather their representations), then when the Logos descended, gnosis was then available to each individual, rather than through the prophets which the demiurge sanctioned.  The logos replaced all priests, and the spirit within us replaced the prophets.  We are now qualified to be our own prophet, in other words.  This is just my understanding from a combined variety of sources and insight.
         
        I also think he's getting onto James more for the reason that James is still searching superficially, instead of inwardly following the lead that Jesus gave.  James wants more explanations, kind of like he's being lazy and instead of thinking his way there, he wants a 'gimme'.
         
        love from annie
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 10:21 AM
        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: John the Baptist

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "janahooks" <janahooks@y...>
        wrote:
        > Thanks, Cari.  So does the following passage simply mean that the
        > time for prophecy is over, everything has come to pass?  (I hope
        > that's somewhere close to the meaning since Jesus basically calls
        > James a ninny for not understanding. :)    jana
        >
        > "Then I asked him, "Lord, how shall we be able to prophesy to those
        > who request us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us,
        > and look to us to hear an oracle from us."
        > The Lord answered and said, "Do you not know that the head of
        > prophecy was cut off with John?"
        > But I said, "Lord, can it be possible to remove the head of
        > prophecy?"
        > The Lord said to me, "When you come to know what 'head' means, and
        > that prophecy issues from the head, (then) understand the meaning
        > of 'Its head was removed.' At first I spoke to you in parables, and
        > you did not understand; now I speak to you openly, and you (still)
        do
        > not perceive. Yet, it was you who served me as a parable in
        parables,
        > and as that which is open in the (words) that are open."
        >
        > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/jam.html
        >


        That sounds good to me, jana.

        Cutting off the head of prophecy is quite an explicit image when
        considering John the Baptist, isn't it?  Now that the Lord is here,
        the prophecy of John's has been fulfilled.  Why would there be a need
        for continued prophecy? 

        Also, consider Logion 46 from _The Gospel of Thomas_:
        Jesus said, "From Adam unto John the Baptist there has been none
        among the offspring of women who has been more exalted than John the
        Baptist, so that such a person's eyes might be broken.  But I have
        said that whomever among you (plur.) becomes a little one will become
        acquainted with the kingdom, and will become more exalted than John."

        I also see John as possibly a representation of an exalted
        prophetic "head" honcho able to directly prophesize that someone
        would be superseding him.  John is a man nonetheless, whose psychic
        limitations ("head" possibly even also representing a psychic
        awareness) are supplanted by the appearance of the Christ.  No need
        to get stuck in neutral, going around in circles, with continued,
        showy psychic prophecies at this point.  All those (little ones)
        acquainted with the kingdom are indeed more exalted than John.
         
        Perhaps other members have additional ideas.

        Cari




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