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8175Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: jesus incarnation?

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  • Ginosko
    Aug 25, 2003
      MM PMCV

      I understand where you're headed at least and agree ;)

      MP
      Penn

      --
      Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self.

      Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 214


      > The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
      > called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.
      >
      > To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
      > ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
      > to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
      > I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
      > state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
      > you meant?).
      >
      > If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
      > with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
      > the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
      > instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
      > lineage is simply not true.
      >
      > This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
      > point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
      > of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
      > traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
      > maintain that point still.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
      > > MM PMCVFLAG
      > >
      > > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
      > religion Wicca
      > > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
      > built and
      > > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
      > indeed
      > > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
      > been
      > > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
      > 30,000
      > > years ago.
      > >
      > > Just a lil to ponder.
      > >
      > > MP
      > > Penn
      > >
      > > --
      > > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
      > For Kabir
      > > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
      > is it
      > > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
      > say what
      > > is what?
      > >
      > > Kabir
      > >
      > >
      > > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
      > Religion",
      > > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
      > > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
      > and
      > > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
      > > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
      > fully
      > > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
      > history
      > > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
      > Templars,
      > > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
      > as a
      > > > medieval craft guild.
      > > >
      > > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
      > > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
      > > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
      > > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
      > have
      > > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
      > > >
      > > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
      > people,
      > > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
      > admit
      > > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
      > Dont
      > > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
      > > > it's value is not on the literal level.
      > > >
      > > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
      > is a
      > > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
      > club
      > > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
      > > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
      > > > inductive leaps.
      > > >
      > > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
      > and
      > > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
      > Demiurge in
      > > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
      > > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
      > missing
      > > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
      > > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
      > > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
      > have
      > > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
      > > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
      > > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
      > > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
      > > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
      > > >
      > > > PMCV
      > > >
      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
      > > > about
      > > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
      > sources ;)),
      > > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
      > history
      > > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
      > was
      > > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
      > > > >
      > > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
      > > > Jewish
      > > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
      > > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
      > > > it......its
      > > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
      > without
      > > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
      > > > >
      > > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
      > > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
      > too
      > > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
      > > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
      > history
      > > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
      > the
      > > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
      > > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
      > even
      > > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
      > > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
      > the
      > > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
      > > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
      > > > >
      > > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
      > > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
      > egyptian/sumerian
      > > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
      > way
      > > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
      > > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
      > > > those
      > > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
      > > > Torah
      > > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
      > something
      > > > > to think about ;)
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > MM Sarutobi496
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
      > > > > Gnostics have
      > > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
      > > > > misinterpretation of
      > > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
      > > > > following of
      > > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
      > Gnostic
      > > > > texts have
      > > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
      > > > > mistakenly thought
      > > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
      > > > > pronouncing
      > > > > > himself as such.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > MP
      > > > > > Penn
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --
      > > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
      > is
      > > > > in it; and
      > > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
      > > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
      > for
      > > > a
      > > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
      > of
      > > > > life,
      > > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
      > > > felt
      > > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
      > > > read
      > > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
      > truth
      > > > i'm
      > > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
      > > > > follow........
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
      > > > > degradation of
      > > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
      > > > > disagree
      > > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
      > > > > demiurge, a
      > > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
      > > > > Judaism
      > > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
      > > > > anything
      > > > > > > but evil.......
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
      > > > > Jewish
      > > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
      > accept,
      > > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
      > times....
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
      > would
      > > > > help
      > > > > > > if
      > > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
      > > > > Gnosticism,
      > > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > is.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
      > not
      > > > > see
      > > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
      > what I
      > > > > > > assume
      > > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
      > phrase
      > > > > could
      > > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
      > > > say,
      > > > > you
      > > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
      > > > > think
      > > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
      > who
      > > > > > > knows.
      > > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
      > > > > interesting
      > > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
      > > > wish
      > > > > to
      > > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > PMCV
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
      > > > <no_reply@y...>
      > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
      > learning
      > > > > > > pretty
      > > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
      > > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
      > everything
      > > > > > > > quickly,
      > > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
      > > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
      > jesus
      > > > as
      > > > > God-
      > > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
      > Heavenly
      > > > > > > Father
      > > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
      > > > she
      > > > > also
      > > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
      > God
      > > > > > > > incarnate,
      > > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
      > the
      > > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
      > believe
      > > > he
      > > > > was
      > > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
      > > > > orthadox
      > > > > > > > > churches say ;)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
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