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8171Re: jesus incarnation?

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  • pmcvflag
    Aug 25, 2003
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      The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
      called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.

      To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
      ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
      to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
      I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
      state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
      you meant?).

      If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
      with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
      the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
      instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
      lineage is simply not true.

      This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
      point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
      of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
      traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
      maintain that point still.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
      > MM PMCVFLAG
      >
      > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
      religion Wicca
      > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
      built and
      > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
      indeed
      > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
      been
      > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
      30,000
      > years ago.
      >
      > Just a lil to ponder.
      >
      > MP
      > Penn
      >
      > --
      > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
      For Kabir
      > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
      is it
      > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
      say what
      > is what?
      >
      > Kabir
      >
      >
      > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
      Religion",
      > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
      > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
      and
      > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
      > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
      fully
      > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
      history
      > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
      Templars,
      > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
      as a
      > > medieval craft guild.
      > >
      > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
      > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
      > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
      > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
      have
      > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
      > >
      > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
      people,
      > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
      admit
      > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
      Dont
      > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
      > > it's value is not on the literal level.
      > >
      > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
      is a
      > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
      club
      > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
      > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
      > > inductive leaps.
      > >
      > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
      and
      > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
      Demiurge in
      > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
      > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
      missing
      > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
      > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
      > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
      have
      > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
      > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
      > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
      > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
      > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
      > >
      > > PMCV
      > >
      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
      > > about
      > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
      sources ;)),
      > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
      history
      > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
      was
      > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
      > > >
      > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
      > > Jewish
      > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
      > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
      > > it......its
      > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
      without
      > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
      > > >
      > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
      > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
      too
      > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
      > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
      history
      > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
      the
      > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
      > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
      even
      > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
      > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
      the
      > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
      > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
      > > >
      > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
      > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
      egyptian/sumerian
      > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
      way
      > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
      > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
      > > those
      > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
      > > Torah
      > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
      something
      > > > to think about ;)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > MM Sarutobi496
      > > > >
      > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
      > > > Gnostics have
      > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
      > > > misinterpretation of
      > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
      > > > following of
      > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
      Gnostic
      > > > texts have
      > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
      > > > mistakenly thought
      > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
      > > > pronouncing
      > > > > himself as such.
      > > > >
      > > > > MP
      > > > > Penn
      > > > >
      > > > > --
      > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
      is
      > > > in it; and
      > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
      > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
      for
      > > a
      > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
      of
      > > > life,
      > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
      > > felt
      > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
      > > read
      > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
      truth
      > > i'm
      > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
      > > > follow........
      > > > > >
      > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
      > > > degradation of
      > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
      > > > disagree
      > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
      > > > demiurge, a
      > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
      > > > Judaism
      > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
      > > > anything
      > > > > > but evil.......
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
      > > > Jewish
      > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
      accept,
      > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
      times....
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
      would
      > > > help
      > > > > > if
      > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
      > > > Gnosticism,
      > > > > > that
      > > > > > > is.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
      not
      > > > see
      > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
      what I
      > > > > > assume
      > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
      phrase
      > > > could
      > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
      > > say,
      > > > you
      > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
      > > > think
      > > > > > that
      > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
      who
      > > > > > knows.
      > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
      > > > interesting
      > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
      > > wish
      > > > to
      > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > PMCV
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
      > > <no_reply@y...>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
      learning
      > > > > > pretty
      > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
      > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
      everything
      > > > > > > quickly,
      > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
      > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
      jesus
      > > as
      > > > God-
      > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
      Heavenly
      > > > > > Father
      > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
      > > she
      > > > also
      > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
      God
      > > > > > > incarnate,
      > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
      the
      > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
      believe
      > > he
      > > > was
      > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
      > > > orthadox
      > > > > > > > churches say ;)
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
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