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8166Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: jesus incarnation?

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  • Ginosko
    Aug 24, 2003
      MM Sarutobi496

      However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads
      with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
      driven out of Egypt there are no signs of such a thing. However, there are
      signs of a bitter internal civil war within Egypt.

      Many of the Jewish Rabbion are now coming to terms with the idea that the OT
      is allegorical and not literal which kinda negates the idea in some sense
      that tradition makes it true. In fct when we examine many traditions we find
      that there is a small grain of truth in it, and it oft aint what one
      imagines it to be. Look carefully and you will find misinformation on ALL
      sides. No one has a complete picture as of yet regardless of what they claim
      so far.

      Did you know for example that in the original Jewish myth, Yaweh had a
      consort/wife. And that consort was none other than Asherah. And the basic
      meaning of Asherah was to do with TRUTH ;) Also that the original Jewish
      creation happened on four spheres or levels which the current four
      itterations of creation are a part of in the bible today

      MP
      Penn

      --
      Now you are going to ask me how to destroy this stark
      awareness of your self. You might be thinking that if you
      destroy this sense of your self you will destroy
      everythingelse too and you will be right. But I will answer
      this fear by telling you that without a very special grace
      from God and without a particular aptitude on your part,
      you will never beable to get rid of this naked sense of
      self. For your part, this aptitude consists of a robust and
      profound sorrow of spirit.....Everybody has a special
      reason for grief, but the person who has a deep experience
      of himself existing apart from God feels the most acute
      sorrow. Once we have aquired this sorrow it not only
      purifies our souls, but it takes away all the pain merited
      by sin and thus makes the soul capable of receivingthat joy
      which takes from a man all sense of his own being. If this
      sorrow is genuine, it is full of holy longing. Otherwise
      nobody could bear it.

      from The Cloud of Unknowing


      > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
      > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
      > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
      > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
      > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
      >
      > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
      > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
      > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
      > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
      > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
      >
      > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
      > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
      > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
      > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
      > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
      > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
      > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
      > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
      > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
      > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
      > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
      >
      > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
      > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
      > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
      > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
      > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
      > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
      > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
      > to think about ;)
      >
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
      > wrote:
      > > MM Sarutobi496
      > >
      > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
      > Gnostics have
      > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
      > misinterpretation of
      > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
      > following of
      > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
      > texts have
      > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
      > mistakenly thought
      > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
      > pronouncing
      > > himself as such.
      > >
      > > MP
      > > Penn
      > >
      > > --
      > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
      > in it; and
      > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
      > >
      > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
      > >
      > >
      > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
      > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
      > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
      > life,
      > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
      > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
      > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
      > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
      > follow........
      > > >
      > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
      > degradation of
      > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
      > disagree
      > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
      > demiurge, a
      > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
      > Judaism
      > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
      > anything
      > > > but evil.......
      > > >
      > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
      > Jewish
      > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
      > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
      > help
      > > > if
      > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
      > Gnosticism,
      > > > that
      > > > > is.
      > > > >
      > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
      > see
      > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
      > > > assume
      > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
      > could
      > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
      > > > >
      > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
      > you
      > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
      > think
      > > > that
      > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
      > > > knows.
      > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
      > interesting
      > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
      > to
      > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
      > > > >
      > > > > PMCV
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
      > > > pretty
      > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
      > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
      > > > > quickly,
      > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
      > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
      > God-
      > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
      > > > Father
      > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
      > also
      > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
      > > > > incarnate,
      > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
      > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
      > was
      > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
      > orthadox
      > > > > > churches say ;)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > >
      > > >
      >
      >
      >
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