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8163Re: jesus incarnation?

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  • pmcvflag
    Aug 24, 2003
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      Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
      and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
      completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
      almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
      beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
      aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
      that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
      or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
      medieval craft guild.

      Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
      misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
      including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
      (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
      no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.

      On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
      just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
      that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
      misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
      it's value is not on the literal level.

      We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
      primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
      is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
      shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
      inductive leaps.

      Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
      it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
      a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
      over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
      the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
      about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
      position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
      him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
      saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
      this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
      Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
      which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
      about
      > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
      > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
      > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
      > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
      >
      > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
      Jewish
      > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
      > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
      it......its
      > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
      > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
      >
      > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
      > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
      > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
      > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
      > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
      > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
      > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
      > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
      > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
      > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
      > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
      >
      > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
      > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
      > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
      > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
      > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
      those
      > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
      Torah
      > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
      > to think about ;)
      >
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
      > wrote:
      > > MM Sarutobi496
      > >
      > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
      > Gnostics have
      > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
      > misinterpretation of
      > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
      > following of
      > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
      > texts have
      > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
      > mistakenly thought
      > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
      > pronouncing
      > > himself as such.
      > >
      > > MP
      > > Penn
      > >
      > > --
      > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
      > in it; and
      > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
      > >
      > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
      > >
      > >
      > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
      > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
      a
      > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
      > life,
      > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
      felt
      > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
      read
      > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
      i'm
      > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
      > follow........
      > > >
      > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
      > degradation of
      > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
      > disagree
      > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
      > demiurge, a
      > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
      > Judaism
      > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
      > anything
      > > > but evil.......
      > > >
      > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
      > Jewish
      > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
      > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
      > help
      > > > if
      > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
      > Gnosticism,
      > > > that
      > > > > is.
      > > > >
      > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
      > see
      > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
      > > > assume
      > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
      > could
      > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
      > > > >
      > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
      say,
      > you
      > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
      > think
      > > > that
      > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
      > > > knows.
      > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
      > interesting
      > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
      wish
      > to
      > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
      > > > >
      > > > > PMCV
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
      <no_reply@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
      > > > pretty
      > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
      > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
      > > > > quickly,
      > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
      > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
      as
      > God-
      > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
      > > > Father
      > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
      she
      > also
      > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
      > > > > incarnate,
      > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
      > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
      he
      > was
      > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
      > orthadox
      > > > > > churches say ;)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >
      > > >
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