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7829Re: "Pure Gnosticism"

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  • Gerry
    May 23, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "James Lambert" <jehlickova@m...>
      > It is immaterial how many edits the one complete text we have has
      > through. All that is required is that the editors understood the
      manner in
      > which the text was constructed and held to those designs. Order
      > within the text. Deny it if you will, but I have already
      demonstrated the
      > manner in which reverse order is reflected with the terms within
      certain of
      > the sayings. Reverse order has been worked into the text on at
      least one
      > level.

      James . . . if we ASSUME that there was some greater design in the
      original ordering of the logia which was necessary for their proper
      comprehension, then there should be NO discrepancy from Greek to
      Coptic. The fact that there IS suggests either that the ordering was
      NOT THAT important to the scribe, or that the perceived design is an
      eisegetic conclusion.

      > Matter is base, it is clay, it is shit and decayed bodies and rife
      > worms.

      Yes, James, that's what the body is made of . . . and THIS is what
      you'd have the Spirit dependent upon?

      > One's breath is Pneuma. The quantity of Carbon Dioxide depends on
      > you are talking about inspiration, or expiration.

      Actually, you were portraying a progression of Thought to Words to
      Breath. Well, normal human speech is the result of breath EXHALED
      past the vocal cords. You say that "breath is Pneuma," and then say
      that it depends. Well, whether it's IN or OUT, we are respiring
      matter . . . Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, water, germs, etc. To
      equate THIS with the Spirit is what I do not see reflected in the
      traditional sources. If you wish to start citing instances from
      Gnostic groups that support your theory, I'll consider entertaining
      your grandstanding a bit longer, but to continue saying that the
      scriptures themselves tell you so seems rather fantastic to me. From
      my POV, Gnostic writers went to great lengths to differentiate
      between Matter and Spirit. If you've seen something in the thoughts
      of those early Gnostics that corroborates your notion, do share.

      > > >>Joy to the flesh that depends on the spirit; joy to the spirit
      > depends on the body.
      > >
      > > Which is to say that the body that depends on the mind is in
      luck. And so
      > is the mind which focuses upon the material.<<
      > . . .
      > It is not joy for a person to focus on the material. We are
      discussing the
      > mind. A mind that focuses on the material comes to understand how
      the world
      > works. With this knowledge the mind enables the soul to be less
      hampered by
      > the restrictions of the material world.

      James, we're not just discussing the Mind; you've gone to great
      lengths to point out that you feel where two of these aspects are
      mentioned, the other is conspicuously absent. Couldn't that be
      because Pneuma was held to be of greatest importance? Just because
      one or two terms are used in a particular scenario doesn't mean we
      might force the third into the same context. But you don't see it
      that way. You'd rather twist words around and put proclamations into
      the mouth of the Christ figure, to the point that you have him utter
      that the Spirit "depends on the body." Given that the material body
      is temporal, and the Spirit is not, that statement seems contrived.

      > But anyway, let's move on.

      My sentiments exactly!

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