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6016Re: [Gnosticism] Re: (im-)Perfection (2 questions to pmcv)

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  • Rob Thompson
    Jun 8, 2002
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      I hate to butt in but is the difference to believe is something based on fact but still has a leap of faith involved, where to know is a idea based solely on fact or something that we can prove. From example... Fred believes the Gospel of Thomas to be the true word based on the idea that it is one of the oldest Christian documents, or I know the Gospel of Thomas is one of the oldest Christian documents.

      Rob

        ZELITCHENK <zelitchenk@...> wrote:

      2 simple questions. First. I see the difference between "to believe"
      and "to know" is fundumental for you. Can you articulate this in more
      details. What does it mean - "to know"? What does it mean - "to
      believe"? Where is difference?

      Second. What is the difference between "esoteric path" and "inner
      path"? What is it - "esoteric path"?

      --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Ok Play, you do in fact make some areas of where you are comming
      from
      > more clear, and that is quite helpful.
      >
      > To deal with some specific points you raise....
      >
      > >When I come off sounding like everything is good, it is more to
      > illustrate the idea that everything is exactly as it should be and
      > not flawed is as valid as the idea that flaw and error exists. I'm
      > saying the same thing as you but adding this insight to it. The
      > former way of thinking allows one to see God's perfection much more
      > readily than the latter.<
      >
      > I see two problems that present themselves to the Gnostic
      perspective
      > here. One is a logical flaw called "non sequitor" (which means "it
      > doesn't follow"). Whether or not things are "as it shood be" is not
      > necessarily relevent to whether or not there is a flaw. A flaw can
      be
      > intentional. On the other hand, intent can be a flaw which would
      make
      > the notion of "as it should be" flawed in and of itself
      > since "should" could be error from the getgo. The next one is
      > concerning "God". You are assuming we believe in one to make this
      > statement.
      >
      > >Acceptance, love and compassion are things of tremendous
      importance
      > and value especially in this day and age, are more easily
      assimilated
      > into being than seeing things as flawed or in error in my opinion.<
      >
      > Once again, non sequitor. The notion of flaw in no way implies a
      lack
      > of love or compassion. However, love, like all other things you can
      > name, applies to the field of time rather than to infinity.
      >
      > >I don't trust that judgement as much as I trust love<
      >
      > I don't "trust" period (as far as philosophical points are
      > concerned). "Trust" is another way of saying "believe" or "have
      faith
      > in". The point is, that is "pistic" not "gnostic". We don't seek
      > to "believe", we seek to "know". I know that love and compassion
      are
      > very valuable, and can even be footsteps in the path to Gnosis,
      they
      > are also limited.
      >
      > >I can see that these are not valued from the perspective here when
      I
      > get comments from you and others that ideas based upon love,
      > acceptance and tolerance are "rose colored", "warm and fuzzy" and
      the
      > like.<
      >
      > No, you misunderstand. In fact, I run a club solely on the subject
      of
      > love and compassion in esoteric practice. What is "rose colored" is
      > the need to imply that that love is a matter of providence, and
      that
      > we should float along being guided by it to the point of excluding
      > critical thought, that we should simply "trust" our hearts and not
      > stop to think about it. If you have been following my discussion
      with
      > Wilbro you may have noticed that I outlined the function of "Logos"
      > and "Sophia" in a sort of Jungian manner.... well that applies here
      > as well.
      >
      > >I'll tell you truly that warm and fuzzy ideas
      > are much more preferable to suicide bombers dieing and killing for
      > their belief in what they consider "right". Rose colored glasses
      are
      > better than blood stained ones anyday.<
      >
      > Not if everything is "the way it should be". If that is the case
      then
      > thier hate is every bit as important as your love, and even
      > preferable in some circumstances. Beyond love and hate is the true
      > repose of the spirit. You see, those rose colored glasses are one
      and
      > the same as the blood stained ones. The eyes of the spirit need no
      > glasses at all.
      >
      > >All things are part of what is true.<
      >
      > Only when talking about worldly perception. Remember the post from
      > the Tripartite tractate? "The majority, however, all who have
      reached
      > as far as the visible elements, do not know anything more than
      them."
      > The "truth" you keep mentioning is one that is dependant on the
      > visible elements, as is "love", and "acceptance". All these things
      > that exist as "part of what is true", no longer exist in what is
      > really True.
      >
      > >This subject of truth and God and spirituality is very much a
      matter
      > of perspective.<
      >
      > Only when looked at from somewhere that has "perspective", i.e. the
      > world of the "visible elements".
      >
      > >And all paths eventually lead to truth.<
      >
      > Demonstrate this. I doubt it seriously.
      >
      > >The one item that impresses me the most
      > is the Gospel of Truth. The Gospel of Thomas is interesting but
      open
      > to too much interpretation by the reader.<
      >
      > It is also debatable as to whether Thomas is in fact "Gnostic".
      >
      > >I've been on the inner path for a while now and it is
      > exactly as you say.<
      >
      > Hmmm, except I didn't say the "inner path", I said the "esoteric
      > path", there is a difference.
      >
      > >Hey, come to think of it, a gnostic shouldn't have much of a
      > problem with contradictions. You have read the Gospel of Thomas
      > haven't you?<
      >
      > There is a difference between intentional contradiction for the
      sake
      > of illustration (such as we see at the biginning of the tripartite
      > tractate), and idealogical inconsistancy. Once again, The "Gnostic"
      > validity of Thomas is open to debate.
      >
      > I do think though, that we may be closer to understanding each
      other.
      >
      > PMCV


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