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5959Re: [Gnosticism] Re: (im-)Perfection

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  • Rob Thompson
    Jun 1, 2002
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      I don't know of a Gnostic story of Moses, but I do remember a story of Moses from Egypt. I can't remember the source but I read it in College. Very different from the Hebrew point of view.

      Rob

        pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      Hey Play, I would like to jump in one one thing here (and I hope you
      and Gerry will forgive me). You ask...

      >Is there a gnostic story of Moses? What does it
      tell?<

      There is in fact a Gnostic treatment, and according to it Moses got
      his law from a wicked tyranical Demiurge (in other words the Law is a
      cunstruct for humans to exact political control on other humans). No
      one expects you to give up your beliefs or what you have learned from
      other religions for Gnosticism, just to set them asside momentarily
      so as to avoid preconceptions as to just what we are talking about.
      If you wish to know what Gnosticism is, then it is important that you
      understand that we do in fact not care about that "Lord" in the
      burning bush, he is not our lord. If you take that God of Moses, and
      switch him with the Serpent in the garden, then you will have a
      better idea of where we come from. Gnosticism is indeed a form of
      Judaism, but it is one that turns the normal understanding of Judaism
      upside down. We use Jewish mythology for an opposite effect.
      Therefore the answer to "Are you invalidating the story?" would be
      yes (for me and most of the forms of Gnosticism at least).

      There is also something else that stood out to me that perhaps you
      could clerify. You make these two statements....

      >To get you to see that if you view the creation as flawed only opens
      up the idea that it isn't good enough and has little or no value for
      understanding. I think that is a grave error in and of itself.<

      and...

      >Now that is quite true. He isn't missing the mark. Neither are
      you or anyone here. This isn't about right or wrong or missing the
      mark or any of that.<

      I'm not sure how you can make both of these statements. I'm assuming
      I'm misunderstanding you here. It seems to me that if anyone can be
      in "error" then it _is_ about right and wrong.

      I jump in and say these things because your view seems rather
      enigmatic to me. Truth is, I think you may have some preconceptions
      about Gnosticism that maybe came from spurious sources. No problem,
      we just have to figure out the terms right? ;) .

      >But please understand that my questions aren't meant to invalidate
      the importance of traditional gnostic ideas. I hope that my ideas
      will compliment them even if I seem to be turning them inside out
      sometimes. I'm not bucking to be a traditional gnostic. I only want
      to know and talk about what is true. I also want to be careful not to
      throw the baby out with the bath water.<

      And that seems to bring about the point very nicely. No one really
      cares if you become a Gnostic or not, Gnosticism doesn't look for
      converts so that isn't the point. However, one must know what is baby
      and what is bathwater before they know what to throw out. What's more
      is one must even know if they are bathing a baby or cooking stew.

      So, if sometimes we look over at you and go "why are you looking for
      a baby in our stew pot?" don't be angry, just try not to assume the
      order of our household. Try also not to head over to the toilet, we
      don't want you to touch our baby after digging in there ;)

      >I'm just sharing my perspective on the truth for what it is worth.
      From what I can tell from the way you are responding to my posts, it
      isn't worth much.<

      None of our perspectives on truth is worth much, not yours, not mine.
      Truth is beyond perspective. This makes it impossible to really get
      very far in trying to discuss truth itself. For that reason we are
      not so much here to talk about what truth is, but how Gnostics get
      there. This is not meant to invalidate your beliefs Play, but I am
      getting the impression that you may expect an inverse from us that we
      cannot give either... validation for your beliefs.

      Don't get me wrong, you are welcome to disagree with Gnosticism, and
      to express it fully. Just say "Hmmmm, I disagree with Gnosticism on
      that point because...... ". You can also disagree with me (or anyone
      here individually) by the same token. All I ask is that you remember
      that this is not an ecclectic spirituality club, it is a Gnosticism
      club.

      Pretend for a second that you are a Christian who is in a LaVayan
      Satanism club, not to convert anyone, but because you are genuinely
      curious about what Satanists believe after you found out that they
      don't really worship Satan the way you were told, but that most of
      them do not even really believe in Satan (this scenario is not in
      fact far from the truth here, and is a more apt analogy of yours and
      our interaction than you may realize). Then pretend that the
      Satanists know who you are, and are ok with your being there as long
      as you don't start telling them that they need to have faith in Jesus
      in order to know truth (since you know that saying this to the
      Satanists only annoys them). So you are better off disagreeing with
      the Satanists on the social implications of thier practice, which is
      more to the point anyways. Since the social implications are
      indicative of the validity of thier overall belief in some ways, you
      are still discussing truth with them, you are simply doing it
      tactfully. :)

      PMCV


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