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5889Re: [Gnosticism] Re: Thomasine Metaphor or universal microcosm?

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  • Al Pinto
    May 18, 2002
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      > WB: I don't think you and I are looking at the same thing, else you would
      > not say what you are saying. I am speaking
      to what is seen when the
      > veil is lifted. Of, course, it may be that
      what I see, or experience,
      > as the lifting of the veil, the ending of
      the temporal sense of self,
      > leaving the presential sense of self as the
      ground of self, where
      > presential is in the presence of what-is, is not
      the lifting of the
      > veil you are speaking to.
       
      Probably not. But what I'm saying is it doesn't matter who's veil gets lifted, what is, just is regardless. Always was and always will be. This has more to do with "IT" more than it has to do with us even though we are just a part of it. LOL! If that didn't confuse you, I don't know what will.
       
      > play: I see and understand your point of view. However, if knowledge
      > gained can lead one to accept the "kingdom" for
      what it is fully, they
      > quickly realize that what surrounds them is a
      part of it. If they can
      > accept this connection then they will start to
      see that they are also
      > a part of it.
      >
      > I do not think
      you see and understand my point of view, and I mean
      > that as only what I
      see as the fact of it. I am saying that the
      > knowledge gained by the
      lifting of the veil is not something that
      > needs to be realized or
      accepted; it is given, it comes with the
      > territory, the connection is
      made. Again, maybe we mean separate
      > things by the lifting of the
      veil.
       
      No actually, I agree with you here 100%. But I guess I'm thinking of it more like before it is lifted entirely. How quick is the veil lifted for a person? All at once or bit-by-bit? But yes, once lifted, the FULL connection being made, knowing all this and more would be just known and not surprising to who knows it at all. "Why do you marvel so at the things that I do? Don't you know that you are able to do this and more?" [I'm paraphrasing here somewhat but I'm sure you all are familiar with this quote]
       
      I subscribe to the bit-by-bit method whereby what can be called gnosis is gained through experience which leads to rememberence of what there is to know. I say that because I believe we are born with everything that needs knowing and somehow can't recollect it all at once. Realizing and accepting this bit-by-bit is what we do as we piece back the puzzle of what we once knew and were connected to.
       
      Physically, at least, our DNA may even support this idea. One of the great mysteries of life sciences is the question of why two-thirds of our genetic code is turned off. Up until discoveries in 1953, science has always believed the genetic code was fixed. Now, within the last few years, Western researchers have found that it appears the human genetic code is a variable code rather than a fixed code, and that it is our responses of feeling and emotions as we go through the challenges of life that determine which one of those codes are switched on and switched off. Much of what Jesus and the Essenes, Jewish Mystics, Hindus and others were trying to teach us had to do with learning how this can be done. Jesus performed great "miracles" and said we should be able to do the same and more. What was that all about? What did that say to us? It's over 2000 years since he was here and we are still coming to grips with and talking about this great person and what he had to teach us.

      > play: This is what I mean by remembering. Remembering who we
      really
      > are not who we think we might be. The physical aspect of the
      kingdom
      > is no less valid than the spiritual part of it just as our
      physical
      > aspect of being is no less valid than our spiritual one. These
      2
      > things; physicality and spirituality, are not separate but connected.
      > "As it is above, so it is below". I forget where that quote comes
      > from, LOL, but it fits quite nicely here.
      >
      > You see the
      spiritual and the physical aspect of the kingdom to be the
      > two aspects
      of an extant kingdom. I see the notion of a kingdom as you
      > have
      comprised it as a notion only. I see the notion of a spiritual as
      >
      deriving from the recognition of presence that is revealed when the 
      > temporal sense of self comes to an end. I will call that the
      >
      spiritual, but only as a way to differentiate it from the sense of
      >
      being in the world that adheres to the temporal sense of self, and, as
      >
      a way of referring to the difference ensuing from that shift in one's
      >
      sense of self.
       
      Can't disagree with you there Will. I appreciate your perspective and thanks for sharing what you are seeing. I still see the value of seeing the kingdom as comprising what is physical and what is spiritual because the mere fact is that it is constructed that way. A simple truth is that all things are connected regardless of how loosely it appears to us sometimes.

      > If that notion of a dualistic kingdom
      arose from an experience, then
      > it is simply a description of an
      experience, and if it did not derive
      > from experience, it is purely
      speculative. If there is an singular
      > experience that can be taken as
      positing such a kingdom, or not,
      > depending upon how one takes it, that
      is one thing. If there is an
      > experience that demands being taken as
      positing such a kingdom and
      > there is another experience that does not
      make such a demand, yet the
      > general structure of the experience is the
      same, that is another
      > thing. What thing do we have here? It is one or
      the other. Or so it
      > seems to me.
       
      Maybe it is both or even other ideas that we haven't posited? To me, it is all just different perspectives to the same light which is infinite in all ways of expression. It is also possible that we, each of us, are just many different expressions of that light. We are the light! Each having their own validity and purpose. No two alike. Everyone valid because they came from and are returning to what is infinite. Everyone alive. Everyone valued and worth something. Everyone expressing all that can be acted upon, felt, thought or known.
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