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5875Re: Thomasine Metaphor

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  • lady_caritas
    May 16, 2002
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      Willy-Whale, no need to plead ignorance at all. I'm certainly no
      Gnostic scholar either (lol), but I agree with much of what you have
      written. Besides, there is commonly much variance of opinion in the
      scholarly community.

      Some of your comments tie in nicely to the Gospel of Thomas:

      "There is a movement from no-repose to repose and in that movement,
      something that was no longer is and is revealed as the cause of no-
      repose. Then, when repose comes to an end, where there is a
      recognition of no-repose, the cause may be seen and negated,
      returning one to repose." (Will)
      and from GTh, Logion 50 ~ "… If they ask you, `What is the sign of
      your father within you?' say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"

      "Kierkegaard speaks directly about self-knowing coming before
      anything else. He speaks elsewhere about the necessity for one coming
      into presence with oneself before the presence of God can be." (Will)
      and from GTh, Logion 70 ~ "Jesus said, `If you (plur.) produce what
      is in you, what you have will save you. If you do not have what is
      in you, what you do not have [will] kill you.'"

      "The error, as I see it, is a temporal taking of oneself as oneself,
      where one thinks self in terms of time, and in thinking of self in
      terms of time, creates that temporal identity." (Will)

      One might view error to include thinking of oneself in terms of time,
      and also by extension observing oneself in only physical and/or
      psychological terms. Important is that spiritual awakening is not
      dependent on some "future" event or resurrection.

      Logion 113 ~ His disciples said to him, "When is the kingdom going to
      come?" (Jesus said), "It is not by being waited for that it is going
      to come. They are not going to say, `Here it is' or `There it is.'
      Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and
      people do not see it."

      Logion 51 ~ . . . He said to them, "That (repose) which you (plur.)
      are waiting for has come, but for your part you do not recognize it."

      Seeking and finding, a re-cognition or "recollection," getting in
      touch with the divine spark within that you mention, Will, is indeed
      necessary to transcend our physical existence and all its
      concomitant "disturbance." The "revelation," which awakens us
      from "ignorance," allows us to continue our experiential paths in
      this earthly existence in a practical sense with a new sense of

      Now, regarding your comments on "God" ~

      "St. John and his Via Negative speaks to God as being the fullness
      and as having nothing to do with the error." (Will)

      I recall that Terje offered an excellent discussion of "Via Negativa"
      in his Message #5810. And for discussion of "error" within a
      Valentinian perspective, you might find the following piece
      interesting: http://www.cyberus.ca/~brons/error.htm This also
      addresses your following comment: "If I remember correctly, in the
      Gnostic system, that error was created by a God." Well, there is not
      just one "Gnostic system," and there are certainly various opinions
      on whether the mythological "demiurge" was directly responsible
      for "error," especially in connection with the meaning of "error" in
      the Gospel of Truth. For discussion of "demiurge" (NOT to be
      confused with the "True God") I recommend:

      Nonetheless, your comment, "Again, the error is man's doing, and is
      the grasping of oneself as temporal" might just elicit some hand
      waving from Gnostics. To be sure, other religions might view error
      as man's fault (for instance, a concept of "original sin" such as
      seen in orthodox Christianity), but Gnostics as seen through their
      mythology generally view humans as a product of the error that
      already has occurred. *Sustaining* the error might be man's doing,
      however, and humans ARE individually responsible for seeking and
      finding the divine spark within themselves and awakening from
      the "sin" of ignorance. Even upon "awakening" humans still live in a
      physical existence that is flawed, but they approach life with a new
      sense of self and the True God vs. a "creator god."

      Logion 28 ~ Jesus said, "I stood at rest in the midst of the world.
      And unto them I was shown forth incarnate; I found them all
      intoxicated. And I found none of them thirsty. And my soul was
      pained for the children of humankind, for they are blind in their
      hearts and cannot see. For, empty did they enter the world, and
      again empty they seek to leave the world. But now they are
      intoxicated. When they shake off their wine then they will have a
      change of heart."

      Well, I certainly have gone on here long enough, MobyWilly. LOL I
      think I'll grab a cup of coffee to "shake off" my morning stupor.

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