5875Re: Thomasine Metaphor
- May 16, 2002Willy-Whale, no need to plead ignorance at all. I'm certainly no
Gnostic scholar either (lol), but I agree with much of what you have
written. Besides, there is commonly much variance of opinion in the
Some of your comments tie in nicely to the Gospel of Thomas:
"There is a movement from no-repose to repose and in that movement,
something that was no longer is and is revealed as the cause of no-
repose. Then, when repose comes to an end, where there is a
recognition of no-repose, the cause may be seen and negated,
returning one to repose." (Will)
and from GTh, Logion 50 ~ " If they ask you, `What is the sign of
your father within you?' say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"
"Kierkegaard speaks directly about self-knowing coming before
anything else. He speaks elsewhere about the necessity for one coming
into presence with oneself before the presence of God can be." (Will)
and from GTh, Logion 70 ~ "Jesus said, `If you (plur.) produce what
is in you, what you have will save you. If you do not have what is
in you, what you do not have [will] kill you.'"
"The error, as I see it, is a temporal taking of oneself as oneself,
where one thinks self in terms of time, and in thinking of self in
terms of time, creates that temporal identity." (Will)
One might view error to include thinking of oneself in terms of time,
and also by extension observing oneself in only physical and/or
psychological terms. Important is that spiritual awakening is not
dependent on some "future" event or resurrection.
Logion 113 ~ His disciples said to him, "When is the kingdom going to
come?" (Jesus said), "It is not by being waited for that it is going
to come. They are not going to say, `Here it is' or `There it is.'
Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and
people do not see it."
Logion 51 ~ . . . He said to them, "That (repose) which you (plur.)
are waiting for has come, but for your part you do not recognize it."
Seeking and finding, a re-cognition or "recollection," getting in
touch with the divine spark within that you mention, Will, is indeed
necessary to transcend our physical existence and all its
concomitant "disturbance." The "revelation," which awakens us
from "ignorance," allows us to continue our experiential paths in
this earthly existence in a practical sense with a new sense of
Now, regarding your comments on "God" ~
"St. John and his Via Negative speaks to God as being the fullness
and as having nothing to do with the error." (Will)
I recall that Terje offered an excellent discussion of "Via Negativa"
in his Message #5810. And for discussion of "error" within a
Valentinian perspective, you might find the following piece
interesting: http://www.cyberus.ca/~brons/error.htm This also
addresses your following comment: "If I remember correctly, in the
Gnostic system, that error was created by a God." Well, there is not
just one "Gnostic system," and there are certainly various opinions
on whether the mythological "demiurge" was directly responsible
for "error," especially in connection with the meaning of "error" in
the Gospel of Truth. For discussion of "demiurge" (NOT to be
confused with the "True God") I recommend:
Nonetheless, your comment, "Again, the error is man's doing, and is
the grasping of oneself as temporal" might just elicit some hand
waving from Gnostics. To be sure, other religions might view error
as man's fault (for instance, a concept of "original sin" such as
seen in orthodox Christianity), but Gnostics as seen through their
mythology generally view humans as a product of the error that
already has occurred. *Sustaining* the error might be man's doing,
however, and humans ARE individually responsible for seeking and
finding the divine spark within themselves and awakening from
the "sin" of ignorance. Even upon "awakening" humans still live in a
physical existence that is flawed, but they approach life with a new
sense of self and the True God vs. a "creator god."
Logion 28 ~ Jesus said, "I stood at rest in the midst of the world.
And unto them I was shown forth incarnate; I found them all
intoxicated. And I found none of them thirsty. And my soul was
pained for the children of humankind, for they are blind in their
hearts and cannot see. For, empty did they enter the world, and
again empty they seek to leave the world. But now they are
intoxicated. When they shake off their wine then they will have a
change of heart."
Well, I certainly have gone on here long enough, MobyWilly. LOL I
think I'll grab a cup of coffee to "shake off" my morning stupor.
- << Previous post in topic Next post in topic >>