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12467Re: It's in our DNA

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  • pmcvflag
    Jun 11, 2006
      Hey Darkchylde

      >>>When I am working with a horse I know the horse technically
      doesn't do wrong- he (or she) is acting on instinct and impulse and
      I inadvertantly triggered a response that is detrimental to the
      training process. WHereas the horse would not be considered wrong,
      I, as the human, being more enlightened and I AM
      the one bothering him in the first place (they don't come in my
      living room and run me off the couch on a whim to go for a run)I can
      be wrong in that I would give into frustration and anger and
      aggression and abuse an animal that wouldn't be doing anything but
      grazing if it wasn't for me anyway.<<<

      I like that picture you paint. It allows for openness towards
      other's beliefs without stating that we must throw out critical
      perspective in the mix.

      >>>So much to reply to. I do not see it as an attack (although it
      seems my opinion might have been taken as one.)<<<

      Don't worry, Darkchylde, most of us in this group actually respect
      and enjoy a little bit of a friendly challenge ;) . Honestly, you
      don't need to apologize. We test ideas and debate as friends here.
      Not everyone is able to do that, and when they find this to be a
      threat they write us off as "silly academics". You are welcome to
      question my ideas, but expect me to question in return. Keep in mind
      that this should always be brought back to the subject at hand....
      not just our personal views (that rule applies to me as well).

      >>>As a gnostic I avoid anything that smacks of domination, and I
      believe the only absolute truth is that we are all in this
      together.<<<

      Very understandable, though I would question whether it is
      indicative of being a Gnostic. Of course, the Gnostic was a rebel
      against temporal authority, Yaldebaoth and maybe even the Roman
      occupation, but on the other hand the Gnostic also believed in a
      rightful cosmic order. Personally, I probably still have some of
      that punk rock anarchism in me from my youth, but it would not be
      right of me to foist that on to historical Gnostic thinking.

      >>>Have a problem with dissention? Quite the contrary, my point is
      that we cannot judge anothers beliefs to be wrong. That hardly
      sounds like there is no room for dissention. And I do believe(this
      doesn't make it truth, albeit MY truth) that enlightment will not
      come if there is not a tolerance for ALL beliefs and faiths.<<<

      I can certainly sympathize, but I am not so sure the Gnostics would.
      Think about it another way, Yaldebaoth can be seen as an allegory
      for the those very religions you say we should respect (and I
      generally feel ambivalent for). In fact, that is actually partly
      what his function is. It becomes very clear in the Gospel of Judas
      that the Demiurge is intended as an attack on religious faith. This
      is not what we can call tolerance of all beliefs and faiths, but
      just the opposite... it is a rejection of blind faith and poorly
      thought beliefs.

      Now, I am not saying the Gnostics must be right about this. Once
      again, that is for people figure out on their own. What I AM saying
      is that no one can say that the Gnostics were particularly
      relativist.

      >>>I can only speak from my person experience, but I have searched
      many faiths, and even put my name to a few of them, and my present
      evolution has led me to gnostism.<<<

      I'm sure nearly everyone here can sympathise with the growth process.

      >>>And I might point out gnosis means knowledge, and that can take
      many forms and have many names but you will know it to
      be the truth when you FEEL it, as I do.<<<

      Well, actually that isn't really an accurate meaning for the
      word "Gnosis" as the Gnostics used it. This is a subject this forum
      does tend to revisit pretty often.

      >>>Christ never told anyone they were wrong, yet he imparted a
      belief that I believe brought people around because of that fact.<<<

      I guess that depends on who's version we are reading. ;) In the
      Bible the "Christ" is quite direct in calling people hypocrites,
      etc.. However, we don't have to take the Bible seriously here if we
      don't want. There is no assumption of scriptural validity here.

      >>>Perhaps you miss the point with so much polartization and
      judgement on what is "wrong" and what is "right". I do not even
      believe that you are wrong for casting judgement.<<<

      I didn't cast any judgement, Darkchylde. I am simply trying to
      present a historically acurate understanding of the Gnostic belief
      system so people can think and talk about about them in an informed
      way. Please don't assume that I am some kind of missionary for that
      position.

      >>>But I will remind that to dominate, to make oneslef superior for
      what is believed or not is the very urges I seek to eliminate on my
      effort to expand the Christ consciouness within me.<<<

      No one is trying to dominate here, Darkchylde. This forum deals with
      historical forms of Gnosticism, and all we want to do is make sure
      that it is understood.... not agreed with.

      >>>>I was unaware that Gnosis meant "right" anything. I was under the
      impression it meant knowledge and didn't make such constrictive and
      human confines on ideas that extend beyond the physical realm.<<<

      Like I mentioned above, we do try to stick with the historical
      Gnostic meaning of the word "Gnosis" in this group.... for the sake
      of communication. I think you will find that Gnostic ideas were very
      open in many ways that many people find very interesting today, but
      maybe not in the ways that many would LIKE them to be open.

      >>>Uncritical acceptance is not what I have for the traditions of
      others, but rather a healthy respect and the true spirit of
      compassion and acceptance for anyone - which cannot exist in my heart
      while I harbor judgemnt and critism.<<<<

      Respect and tolerence is not the same as agreement. Glad you pointed
      that out.

      >>>And to think that I excuse all behavior because I refuse to think
      another is wrong shows you have made judgments on my rationallizing
      that are incomplete, as you do not know me very well.<<<

      Hmmmmm, maybe you are right. However, on what grounds do you NOT
      excuse a behavior? How can you say something is not ok if you can't
      say it is wrong? What is the arbitrary difference you assign?

      >>>If as a gnostic I seek to elimiate cosmic ignorance then I would
      do well to steer away from judgements or condemnations. My heart,
      which I have learned to listen to, tells me that my head is right.<<<

      You needn't defend your heart here (the head may be something a bit
      more testable), thit is your own. Honestly, it simply isn't the
      point of this forum. What we are talking about is Gnosticism.

      >>>I do find it much more interesting with different points of view.
      After all, aren't we just individual flames of a larger fire?<<<

      I find various views interesting as well. After all, without the
      challenge I would not have been able to test my own views. Sometimes
      I have been wrong (yes, I can say "wrong"), but I think the trick
      has been to accept that with humility rather than saying nobody can
      be wrong therefore I must be right (Thanks Mike.... I think *lol*).

      PMCV
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