12467Re: It's in our DNA
- Jun 11, 2006Hey Darkchylde
>>>When I am working with a horse I know the horse technicallydoesn't do wrong- he (or she) is acting on instinct and impulse and
I inadvertantly triggered a response that is detrimental to the
training process. WHereas the horse would not be considered wrong,
I, as the human, being more enlightened and I AM
the one bothering him in the first place (they don't come in my
living room and run me off the couch on a whim to go for a run)I can
be wrong in that I would give into frustration and anger and
aggression and abuse an animal that wouldn't be doing anything but
grazing if it wasn't for me anyway.<<<
I like that picture you paint. It allows for openness towards
other's beliefs without stating that we must throw out critical
perspective in the mix.
>>>So much to reply to. I do not see it as an attack (although itseems my opinion might have been taken as one.)<<<
Don't worry, Darkchylde, most of us in this group actually respect
and enjoy a little bit of a friendly challenge ;) . Honestly, you
don't need to apologize. We test ideas and debate as friends here.
Not everyone is able to do that, and when they find this to be a
threat they write us off as "silly academics". You are welcome to
question my ideas, but expect me to question in return. Keep in mind
that this should always be brought back to the subject at hand....
not just our personal views (that rule applies to me as well).
>>>As a gnostic I avoid anything that smacks of domination, and Ibelieve the only absolute truth is that we are all in this
Very understandable, though I would question whether it is
indicative of being a Gnostic. Of course, the Gnostic was a rebel
against temporal authority, Yaldebaoth and maybe even the Roman
occupation, but on the other hand the Gnostic also believed in a
rightful cosmic order. Personally, I probably still have some of
that punk rock anarchism in me from my youth, but it would not be
right of me to foist that on to historical Gnostic thinking.
>>>Have a problem with dissention? Quite the contrary, my point isthat we cannot judge anothers beliefs to be wrong. That hardly
sounds like there is no room for dissention. And I do believe(this
doesn't make it truth, albeit MY truth) that enlightment will not
come if there is not a tolerance for ALL beliefs and faiths.<<<
I can certainly sympathize, but I am not so sure the Gnostics would.
Think about it another way, Yaldebaoth can be seen as an allegory
for the those very religions you say we should respect (and I
generally feel ambivalent for). In fact, that is actually partly
what his function is. It becomes very clear in the Gospel of Judas
that the Demiurge is intended as an attack on religious faith. This
is not what we can call tolerance of all beliefs and faiths, but
just the opposite... it is a rejection of blind faith and poorly
Now, I am not saying the Gnostics must be right about this. Once
again, that is for people figure out on their own. What I AM saying
is that no one can say that the Gnostics were particularly
>>>I can only speak from my person experience, but I have searchedmany faiths, and even put my name to a few of them, and my present
evolution has led me to gnostism.<<<
I'm sure nearly everyone here can sympathise with the growth process.
>>>And I might point out gnosis means knowledge, and that can takemany forms and have many names but you will know it to
be the truth when you FEEL it, as I do.<<<
Well, actually that isn't really an accurate meaning for the
word "Gnosis" as the Gnostics used it. This is a subject this forum
does tend to revisit pretty often.
>>>Christ never told anyone they were wrong, yet he imparted abelief that I believe brought people around because of that fact.<<<
I guess that depends on who's version we are reading. ;) In the
Bible the "Christ" is quite direct in calling people hypocrites,
etc.. However, we don't have to take the Bible seriously here if we
don't want. There is no assumption of scriptural validity here.
>>>Perhaps you miss the point with so much polartization andjudgement on what is "wrong" and what is "right". I do not even
believe that you are wrong for casting judgement.<<<
I didn't cast any judgement, Darkchylde. I am simply trying to
present a historically acurate understanding of the Gnostic belief
system so people can think and talk about about them in an informed
way. Please don't assume that I am some kind of missionary for that
>>>But I will remind that to dominate, to make oneslef superior forwhat is believed or not is the very urges I seek to eliminate on my
effort to expand the Christ consciouness within me.<<<
No one is trying to dominate here, Darkchylde. This forum deals with
historical forms of Gnosticism, and all we want to do is make sure
that it is understood.... not agreed with.
>>>>I was unaware that Gnosis meant "right" anything. I was under theimpression it meant knowledge and didn't make such constrictive and
human confines on ideas that extend beyond the physical realm.<<<
Like I mentioned above, we do try to stick with the historical
Gnostic meaning of the word "Gnosis" in this group.... for the sake
of communication. I think you will find that Gnostic ideas were very
open in many ways that many people find very interesting today, but
maybe not in the ways that many would LIKE them to be open.
>>>Uncritical acceptance is not what I have for the traditions ofothers, but rather a healthy respect and the true spirit of
compassion and acceptance for anyone - which cannot exist in my heart
while I harbor judgemnt and critism.<<<<
Respect and tolerence is not the same as agreement. Glad you pointed
>>>And to think that I excuse all behavior because I refuse to thinkanother is wrong shows you have made judgments on my rationallizing
that are incomplete, as you do not know me very well.<<<
Hmmmmm, maybe you are right. However, on what grounds do you NOT
excuse a behavior? How can you say something is not ok if you can't
say it is wrong? What is the arbitrary difference you assign?
>>>If as a gnostic I seek to elimiate cosmic ignorance then I woulddo well to steer away from judgements or condemnations. My heart,
which I have learned to listen to, tells me that my head is right.<<<
You needn't defend your heart here (the head may be something a bit
more testable), thit is your own. Honestly, it simply isn't the
point of this forum. What we are talking about is Gnosticism.
>>>I do find it much more interesting with different points of view.After all, aren't we just individual flames of a larger fire?<<<
I find various views interesting as well. After all, without the
challenge I would not have been able to test my own views. Sometimes
I have been wrong (yes, I can say "wrong"), but I think the trick
has been to accept that with humility rather than saying nobody can
be wrong therefore I must be right (Thanks Mike.... I think *lol*).
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