10915Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)
- Apr 1, 2005From GichWhere does GNOSIS come into this?...............Achieving Gnosis makes you realise you have always been spiritual from the start.
Nick----- Original Message -----From: gich morganSent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:40 AMSubject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (SALVATION in gnosticism)
SALVATION in gnosticism.
Thanks for some very useful comments on this topic. Could I attempt to sum
them up as follows:
(1) Materialists - they die.
(2) Psychics - they MAY get another chance.
(3) Spirituals - they meld back into the Pleroma,....
Where does GNOSIS come into this?
----- Original Message -----
From: "pmcvflag" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:38 AM
Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Pursuit of gnosis (and the source)
> Ok, Gich......
>>>>"Back to the present. It might help if I outline my thoughts on
> the "inner spark" and the TWIN. We haven't discussed this in depth
> but I have found the idea of a TWIN or CONSORT (acting as some sort
> of mirror of ourselves) very useful in trying to get to grips with
> gnostic cosmology and the esoteric gnosis. It seems to me that a
> useful way of conceptualising this is to think of MAN having
> an "inner spark" and the TWIN having an "outer spark". These are
> only "names"; not necessarily physically "inside" or "outside" of
> anything; in fact to avoid the "inner/ outer" confusion it would
> probably be better to call them the "man spark" and the "twin
> I think you may be right that we are a little closer to being on the
> same page in that you seem to recognize that while the "inner"
> and "outer" are important contextual tools, as such they cannot be
> strictly and conclusively seperated in the other context.
> Just remember, no matter what context, you may want to be careful
> with your "man spark".
>>>>"We can think of both MAN and the TWIN as dualities and I find
> the following diagram a useful aid to conception:
>  (Man, "inner spark")<<<------"link"------>>>(Twin, "outer
> I think of the "link" rather like a "communications channel" between
> the inner and outer sparks. Man is born ignorant of his true nature
> and, in this state, the communication is one-way: the Twin knows
> about the Man, but the Man does not know the Twin. However, after
> Man receives the esoteric gnosis the communication becomes two-way
> and Man gets to know the Twin; he gets to know his true nature and
> the nature of the spiritual realm (the pleroma)."<<<
> This depends on what you are calling the "Man" ("person", if we wish
> to be PC)... the body? the mind? Remember, Gnostics consider the
> person to be three parts, not two. Where are you trying to draw the
> link? I'll bring that up again with your next chart.
>>>>"Your words "we are a sort of twin to our spiritual consort" seem
> to mirror my thoughts above and diagram  quite well.
> So, you are stating that WE are the entity "not of this world" that
> is involved in our personal receipt of the esoteric gnosis."<<<
> Hmmm, sort of, in that for the Gnostics of old the Logos and the
> Sophia are manifest in our existance and in our initiation. Where
> the Sophia is equated with the soul, the Logos is equated with the
>>>>"I have been thinking of Man as a duality something like:
>  [(body, (mind, ignorance), soul) || ("inner spark")]
> and the "not of this world" part of Man is the "inner spark".
> Whether this "spark" is physically inside or outside of the body (or
> both) does not matter."<<<
> One of the big differences between Gnostics and modern Christians is
> the fact that modern Christians are supposed to think of the human
> as a duality. Gnostics, on the other hand, did not. Instead the
> human had THREE parts....
> Body, Mind, Spirit.
> The mind (not to be confused with the intellect) was equated with
> the "soul", and the spirit with the infinite Pleroma.
>>>>"After receipt of the esoteric gnosis the duality changes to
> something like:
>  [(body) || (mind, gnosis) <---awareness---> (soul, "inner
> The "not of this world" part of Man is now the pair (soul, "inner
> spark")and Man, through his "mind" (now equipped with gnosis),
> becomes aware of his soul, the "inner spark", the Twin (via the
> link) and the pleroma."<<<
> It is not something we can categorically state to be Gnostic belief,
> that every person has this "Consort".... OR... that it is
> necessarily simply a matter of recognizing that we do have it
> (perhaps it would be something that we actually sort of create, or
> incubate). Although this does seem to be the basic Valentinian
> outline, not all the texts deal with it in the same way.
>>>>"(Q1) In the receipt of the esoteric gnosis do you see any
> channelling of this gnosis to Man from the Twin?"<<<
> Well, not in the way that New Agers "channel" beings from Atlantis.
> The mind talks to the body, the spirit talks to the mind... the
> Consort is the spiritual spark, so in that way the Gnostics
> certainly believed that the Consort is instrumental in bestowing
>>>>"(Q2) In the receipt of the esoteric gnosis do you see any
> channelling of this gnosis to Man from the pleroma?"<<<
> The Consort is IN the Pleroma, so there is no difference between
> your q1 and q2.
>>>>"(Q3) Do the gnostics believe, literally, in the existence of the
> pleroma, a place where "the saved" enjoy everlasting life after
> their earthly death?"<<<
> Different texts seem to deal with this in different ways, but
> generally speaking... no... there is no "Heaven" where Gnostics
> believed they floated on clouds and played harps in praise of God
> for all eternity. Instead, in release from linear existance there
> would be no conciousness as we know it. Again, there are no hard
> fast rules here as to how Gnostics dealt with the subject, but the
> general rule of thumb looked something like this...
> You are what you identify with (not what you think you identify
> with, or we could all simply say "spirit"). If your primary identity
> is with the body, then you die with that body.... the end. If you
> identify with the soul, then depending on the group you either die
> with the body, or perhaps you are recycled without identity, or
> perhaps you go to a sort of temporary little heaven (or hell) and
> get another chance to try again. If you identify with the spirit
> then you meld back into the Pleroma, which then melds back into the
> Second Father, which then disappears into the First Father.
>>>>"I'm leaving your questions to me for the time being. This post
> is long enough already! :)"<<<
> That is ok, most of them where rhetorical questions meant to get you
> to consider your own questions in a slightly different way.
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