10088Re: A question
- Aug 31, 2004Hey IgnisApocryphon.
In addition to Lady Cari's answer to you in post
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/10084 I wanted to
bring tis together with the conversation between Mike and Annie.
Mike states to Annie
>>>"Thank-you Marcion (sorry, couldn't resist). :-) Good point,BTW."<<<
Whether or not Mike intended this (I assume he is aware of it) it
does seem to be relavant to the post that Annie writes on a few
levels. Annie wrote...
>>>"Just my opinion, however. If you read the bible, next time youdo, for an experiment, read it with the frame of mind that the OT
YHVH and the NT "Father" are two different dieties."<<<
You see, IgnisApocryphon, Marcion proposed a cosmological system that
is essentially identical to what we find in Gnosticism, with the
Demiurge, etc.. In fact, it is common for people to come to the club
here and assume Marcion WAS Gnostic, based simply on the fact that
his cosmology was the same. Care to guess why Marcion would not be
It works like this; Marcion, unlike Gnostics, believed that salvation
was gained by faith in the actual literal validity of his system (at
least that is how it looks in the things we read from the
heresiologists). The Gnostic model is not dependant on a literal
belief of the cosmology. SOme may have believed it literally, others
may not have.... but the Gnostic writings themselves make fairly
clear that what is important is the underlying MEANING of the texts.
We know this from many sources. First, as you can see from the
passages that Cari gave you, Gnostics understood the problem of
language in communicating these kinds of ideas... and is many
passages they even tell us more specifically that the meanings are
hidden. Two, the heresiologists tell us this about the Gnostics. Of
course, we can't always believe this source but in this case it is
held up by the evidence. Three, the very structure of many Gnostic
sects, in which we know that part of the initiatory process was to
learn the hidden meanings of the texts that other Christians took to
be literal, makes very clear that part of the very essence of gaining
Gnosis was about comming to understand these meanings.
Now, let me be specific about something here. There has been a lot of
talk here lately that seems to place Gnosticism in some sort
of "Spiritual Anarchist" camp of free interperatation without any
church structure. Historically, this is simply not true. It DOES seem
to be true that Gnostic sects sometimes participated in a sort of
creative interperative session, but this was still done under
guidance and was done with the intent of adding richness to the
intended goal (maybe something like modern music teachers do with
thier classes when trying to drive home a principle of a specific
point in music theory... there is creativity but there is ALSO a
point that is not so individual).
Gnostics do have some specific beliefs that make the term "Gnostic"
possible, and one set of those is the cosmology you mention, while
the other is how that cosmology relates to an internal struggle.
I hope that helps more than it confuses :)
--- In email@example.com, "ignisapocryphon" <jstatom@o...>
> On the Demiurge...community
> Is the demiurge a construct of the human mind as "Jehovah", or is it
> real metaphysical transcendent being?
> I'd like some feedback on archetypes and metaphysics... How is God
> viewed? As a transcendent, metaphysical being? Or an archetype? Or
> both? I've always thought that the metaphysical realm and the
> archetypal (sp?) realm coincide with each other to produce mystic
> experiences. (Can there be more than one "gnosis"?) Thoughts and
> comments are greatly appreciated.
> I'm going for the Valentinian POV if anyone wants to know.
> I know that's a mouthfull, but still.
> Also, while I'm at it, I might as well say that the Gnostic
> is one I plan to stay with. I've seen that it is very, VERYfriendly
> and open to new-comers. I've also seen the oppression we face byexperience
> Christians and non-Christians. I'm very proud to say I'm a Gnostic
> Christian and I hope to learn much and maybe have a mystic
> myself soon. It's been a great joy of mine to understand just whatand
> communication with and interaction with The Divine is all about...
> Gnostics take it back to it's roots, when time with God was holy
> unadulterated, no sound or anything... Wow, it's just overwhelmingto
> even talk about. Anywho, I'm sure you guys are tired of me being a
> Comments are appreciated. :D
> Christ is holy,
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