Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Why Don't GW Deniers Present Their "Science?"

Expand Messages
  • lasallia
    After reading Peter s post I am feeling both demeaned and bullied! People, if you are going to accuse others, please make sure you are not guilty of the same
    Message 1 of 97 , Jan 1, 2005
      After reading Peter's post I am feeling both demeaned and bullied!
      People, if you are going to accuse others, please make sure you are
      not guilty of the same offense.

      Peter, I am still waiting for some data to support your claims. I
      have no issue with your contention about albedo related matters, but
      I do have some queries over the scale and the effect. I would like
      to see what evidence you are basing your assertion on, rather than
      rely on the physical theories.

      Thanks,
      Sal

      > Well emadaj50, this is a discussion group, where discussion is the
      thing. No one is denying anything, you seem only intent on demeaning
      others, and as this is the common practice of pundits of the current
      bullied concept, it can only be for to cover a lack of detailed
      explanation.
      .......

      > As to flurocarbons, their inclusion as GHG's seems to rely on
      mistaken interpretations of Quantum Theory based energy states and
      vague, confused meanings of the words radiation, energy and heat.
      >
      > Too much science is ignored to produce the current GHG concepts,
      the cry for this ignored knowledge to be "proven" to the pundit
      simply shows the narrowed vision of those who continue to bully to
      avoid discussion.
      >
      > Your's
      > Peter K Anderson aka HartlodĀ®
      > From the Pocket PC of Peter K Anderson
    • hombredelatierra
      Hi again Jim, Thanks for getting back so soon. Yep, you had the same problems as I did. I will do some further research on the net, maybe on the weekend or
      Message 97 of 97 , Jan 27, 2005
        Hi again Jim,

        Thanks for getting back so soon. Yep, you had the same problems as
        I did. I will do some further research on the net, maybe on the
        weekend or early next week to get myself up to speed.

        Take Care,

        ; ) F.

        --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Frank,
        >
        > I've had a heck of a time finding info on this issue. While everyone
        > (except possibly Peter) recognizes that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and
        > causes warming through the absorption of IR the is little written on
        > the specifics, very little measurement or testing that I have been
        > able to find.
        >
        > I'll put what I've got up and we can go from there.
        >
        > Jim
        >
        > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "hombredelatierra"
        > <hombredelatierra2@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Jim,
        > >
        > > Great! Go get 'em! I saw something you posted on IR Band
        > > Saturation earlier. It looked pretty good.
        > >
        > > Try to explain jargon: remember, the target audience is the
        > > "concerned layman" or eco-journalist searching for balance in
        > perspective.
        > >
        > > To help me get started, do you have any suggestions for
        > keywords
        > > or publications to search? In the past I have tried to locate info
        > on
        > > the net or in peer-reviewed journals re: IR band staturation for
        > CO2.
        > > I was surprised how little there was relating to GW and how much
        > > uncertainty there was in calibration is some parts of the spectrum.
        > >
        > > ; ) Frank
        > >
        > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Frank,
        > > >
        > > > No problem, I've got something already writtent that I can
        > quickly
        > > > modify. I do need access to the files section. I can see it, but
        > not
        > > > create or upload.
        > > >
        > > > Jim
        > > >
        > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "hombredelatierra"
        > > > <hombredelatierra2@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Jim,
        > > > >
        > > > > Glad to hear from ya! Take a look at the msgs I left
        > today. I
        > > > > think Sal may have solved our problem already: simply create a
        > text
        > > > > file. This will keep a permanent record on site and avoids the
        > > > hassle
        > > > > of creating new sites. Do you think your suggestion is better?
        > > > >
        > > > > Are you up to writing a short intro - for the "intelligent
        > > > > layman" - on the IR Band Saturation debate to get the ball
        > rolling,
        > > > > say, over the next week?
        > > > >
        > > > > Is is possible to access Yahoo site construction
        > instructions
        > > > on
        > > > > screen if one is not a site owner? This would help a lot in
        > > > deciding
        > > > > what options are best.
        > > > >
        > > > > Ecologically,
        > > > >
        > > > > Frank
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Frank,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Why don't we make a living document on here? By that we can
        > post
        > > > > our
        > > > > > text and links in a message, then others can post and the
        > living
        > > > > > document can be modified. This would be in the inbox of
        > anyone
        > > > > > reading this via E-mail, but also available on the Yahoo
        > Groups
        > > > > > website, which is where I read and post.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I could quickly whip up a web page on one of the many free
        > hosts,
        > > > > but
        > > > > > do we really gain much by this?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Jim
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "hombredelatierra"
        > > > > > <hombredelatierra2@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi Jim,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Well, speaking with Ken, the site owner, I discovered there
        > may
        > > > > be a
        > > > > > > problem with adding pages. (This is not the case on Msn
        > where
        > > > user
        > > > > > > pages are allowed.) This problem definitely requires more
        > > > > research.
        > > > > > > Does anyone know for sure what user page options Yahoo
        > offers?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I guess initially I was thinking of a short text to explain
        > the
        > > > IR
        > > > > > > band saturation debate with links (if possible) to
        > professional
        > > > > > > (peer-reviewed) articles and texts. We could then present
        > the
        > > > > > various
        > > > > > > arguments - hopefully vetted by some pros. Weight could be
        > > > > > attributed
        > > > > > > to the various positions based upon peer comments, etc. The
        > > > idea
        > > > > > would
        > > > > > > be to provide a research tool for the concerned layman or
        > > > > activist
        > > > > > (to
        > > > > > > counter disinfo campaigns). I would like to keep the info as
        > > > > > > "objective" (fairminded) as possible.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Frank
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv
        > <no_reply@y...>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Frank,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Working together will be just fine. Let me know how you
        > think
        > > > > we
        > > > > > > > should preceed.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Thanks
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jim
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "hombredelatierra"
        > > > > > > > <hombredelatierra2@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Hello Jim,
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I think our best bet is a page on this site dealing
        > with
        > > > the
        > > > > IR
        > > > > > band
        > > > > > > > > saturation issue for starters. Do you want to work on
        > the
        > > > > page
        > > > > > solo
        > > > > > > > or
        > > > > > > > > with me? I figure two heads are better than one (unless
        > > > > they're
        > > > > > on
        > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > same body). I am going to contact Ken, the owner, and
        > see
        > > > how
        > > > > > this
        > > > > > > > can
        > > > > > > > > be done.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > ; ) Ecologically,
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Frank
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv
        > > > <no_reply@y...>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Hi Frank,
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > My turn to apologize... I've been out of pocket for a
        > few
        > > > > > days.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > This sounds good to me, I have interest in both the
        > > > topics
        > > > > > you
        > > > > > > > > > mentioned. I am especially interested in the IR band
        > > > > > saturation
        > > > > > > > > > issue, so I'll take that one.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > How should this work? Are we to write up a page and
        > post
        > > > it
        > > > > > here?
        > > > > > > > Or
        > > > > > > > > > setup a website?
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Jim
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > --- In
        > globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "hombredelatierra"
        > > > > > > > > > <hombredelatierra2@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim,
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > I apologize for the delay in getting back but I
        > have
        > > > been
        > > > > > > > > > really "time
        > > > > > > > > > > compressed" lately.
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > So I guess it a question of picking one of the
        > topics I
        > > > > > > > mentioned:
        > > > > > > > > > CO2
        > > > > > > > > > > feedback and temp, IR band saturation, etc. You
        > can
        > > > pick
        > > > > > but
        > > > > > > > those
        > > > > > > > > > > two are my faves for the moment. They are often
        > > > presented
        > > > > > as
        > > > > > > > weak
        > > > > > > > > > > points in the armor of the pro-GW camp hence are
        > highly
        > > > > > > > relevant to
        > > > > > > > > > > the debate. I don't really think we can resolve any
        > of
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > issues I
        > > > > > > > > > > mentioned ; ) However, we might be able to provide
        > some
        > > > > > useful
        > > > > > > > links
        > > > > > > > > > > and info of use to the general public searching for
        > a
        > > > way
        > > > > > > > through
        > > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > thicket of propaganda and official pronouncements.
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > I think we should aim to sketch the basic positions
        > and
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > various
        > > > > > > > > > > attacks and defenses employed. I know this would
        > sure
        > > > be
        > > > > a
        > > > > > good
        > > > > > > > > > > exercise for me. For example, I don't know how much
        > > > > weight
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > give
        > > > > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > > > the statement "CO2 levels have risen after global
        > temp
        > > > > > rises"
        > > > > > > > > > > especially the INTERPRETATION that should be
        > applied.
        > > > > Does
        > > > > > it
        > > > > > > > mean
        > > > > > > > > > > that CO2 levels rises are innocuous or does it mean
        > > > that
        > > > > > CO2
        > > > > > > > level
        > > > > > > > > > > rises might be extremely dangerous? I have seen
        > > > arguments
        > > > > > on
        > > > > > > > both
        > > > > > > > > > > sides. I would like to attempt to provide guidance
        > to
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > intelligent
        > > > > > > > > > > layman (the voter) in choosing the most reasonable
        > > > > > > > interpretation.
        > > > > > > > > > Not
        > > > > > > > > > > being specialists - and this might in fact be our
        > > > > strength -
        > > > > > our
        > > > > > > > > > > emphasis should be on the logical consistency and
        > > > > strength
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > arguments, rather than any attempt to determine
        > > > > underlying
        > > > > > > > causal
        > > > > > > > > > > mechanisms (unless, of course, the best evidence
        > and
        > > > > > opinions of
        > > > > > > > > > > professionals leans heavily in one direction).
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > If you have the time, you can write a short text
        > for a
        > > > > > special
        > > > > > > > topic
        > > > > > > > > > > page. Or I will do it during next week. Let me
        > know.
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > Ecologically,
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Frank
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv
        > > > > > <no_reply@y...>
        > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Frank,
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
        > > > > globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "hombredelatierra"
        > > > > > > > > > > > <hombredelatierra2@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim,
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, jtr_iv
        > > > > > > > <no_reply@y...>
        > > > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > " I'm game, and I have questions on those
        > subjects
        > > > as
        > > > > > well.
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > At this point I have to wonder if such a
        > > > discussion
        > > > > > can
        > > > > > > > take
        > > > > > > > > > place
        > > > > > > > > > > > > though. I've tried to have similar discussions
        > and
        > > > > > ended up
        > > > > > > > > > > > > spending a huge amout of time addressing
        > attacks on
        > > > > > authors
        > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > > > > > attacks on websites."
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > What I'm driven by is curiosity, I think. If
        > the
        > > > sun
        > > > > > > > warming is
        > > > > > > > > > > > > heating the earth, so be it. I would like to
        > try a
        > > > > > > > coordinated
        > > > > > > > > > > > > search for technical info, primarily using the
        > net
        > > > > > although
        > > > > > > > I
        > > > > > > > > > have
        > > > > > > > > > > > > access to university libraries with peer
        > reviewed
        > > > > > journals.
        > > > > > > > I
        > > > > > > > > > gave
        > > > > > > > > > > > > a short wish list of topics we could choose
        > from.
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > That sounds good Frank. I'm curious also. I want
        > to
        > > > > > > > understand
        > > > > > > > > > where
        > > > > > > > > > > > these facts and figures come from, what the
        > actual
        > > > > causes
        > > > > > > > are.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > "And of course everytime such a discussion
        > comes up
        > > > > > people
        > > > > > > > > > > > > immediately try to shift the discussion from
        > global
        > > > > > warming
        > > > > > > > > > science
        > > > > > > > > > > > > to the next step, action to stop it, as you've
        > > > found
        > > > > in
        > > > > > > > this
        > > > > > > > > > > > > thread."
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, my agenda is pro-Sustainable Development
        > > > (SD).
        > > > > I
        > > > > > link
        > > > > > > > > > this to
        > > > > > > > > > > > > the goal of equity in access to opportunity and
        > > > > > resources
        > > > > > > > on a
        > > > > > > > > > > > > planetary scale. No equity - no peace; no
        > peace -
        > > > no
        > > > > > SD; no
        > > > > > > > SD -
        > > > > > > > > > no
        > > > > > > > > > > > > equity: they can't be separated. If, in fact,
        > GW
        > > > does
        > > > > > pose a
        > > > > > > > > > > > > significant risk to climatic and food
        > production
        > > > > > stability,
        > > > > > > > it
        > > > > > > > > > can
        > > > > > > > > > > > > only exacerbate the equity-SD challenges and
        > > > further
        > > > > > reduce
        > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > > amount of time we have left to find solutions
        > > > before
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > system
        > > > > > > > > > > > > implodes. GW is simply another potential high-
        > > > stakes
        > > > > > > > stressor
        > > > > > > > > > on an
        > > > > > > > > > > > > already unviable world-resource "management"
        > > > system.
        > > > > > > > Whether or
        > > > > > > > > > not
        > > > > > > > > > > > > GW is
        > > > > > > > > > > > > "real" and, if real, "anthropogenic"
        > or "natural",
        > > > > > steps
        > > > > > > > must be
        > > > > > > > > > > > > taken, and fast, to promote SD or there will be
        > > > hell
        > > > > to
        > > > > > > > pay. In
        > > > > > > > > > this
        > > > > > > > > > > > > sense, I can be trusted: the GW issue won't
        > > > > > fundamentally
        > > > > > > > > > change my
        > > > > > > > > > > > > outlook; it can only speed up the agenda a
        > bit. ; )
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > That is quite a lot... but in general I agree
        > with
        > > > you
        > > > > > here.
        > > > > > > > With
        > > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > looming possibility of peak oil we need to work
        > > > towards
        > > > > > > > renewable
        > > > > > > > > > > > energy sources.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can be creative. I believe we can
        > create a
        > > > > > page
        > > > > > > > > > dealing
        > > > > > > > > > > > > with, say, one or two of the topics on my short
        > > > list
        > > > > of
        > > > > > > > > > research
        > > > > > > > > > > > > topics like IR band saturation or CO2-
        > temperature
        > > > > > feedback
        > > > > > > > > > loops.
        > > > > > > > > > > > > We could post
        > > > > > > > > > > > > some links, write a short survey of the problem
        > > > area
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > invite
        > > > > > > > > > > > > serious people to check the links and
        > contribute on
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > specialized
        > > > > > > > > > > > > topic page. I would especially try to get some
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > climate
        > > > > > > > > > > > > professionals, physicists, physical chemists,
        > heat
        > > > > > > > engineers,
        > > > > > > > > > etc.
        > > > > > > > > > > > > to comment upon the survey text - are you a
        > good
        > > > arm
        > > > > > > > twister,
        > > > > > > > > > > > > flatterer?
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > LOL... probably not. I seem to have more of a
        > talent
        > > > at
        > > > > > > > bringing
        > > > > > > > > > out
        > > > > > > > > > > > the worst in people, although I must confess I
        > don't
        > > > > > > > understand
        > > > > > > > > > why.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > For comments and guidance we might try offsite,
        > > > too:
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > Neuman
        > > > > > > > > > > > > boys'
        > > > > > > > > > > > > sites, RealClimate.org, some of the
        > professional
        > > > > group
        > > > > > site
        > > > > > > > > > members
        > > > > > > > > > > > > (climatologists, union of concerned scientists,
        > etc)
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this suggestion interesting, for starters?
        > > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds good to me... I'm in.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Jim
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.