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Re: [Global Warming] Re: Tropical Cyclones (Hurricanes) and Climate Change

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  • Nathan Brown
    What is your educational backgroundd? How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d What do you mean when you say, climate forcing? Nathan Brown
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 1, 2006
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      What is your educational backgroundd?

      How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d What do you mean
      when you say, "climate forcing?"

      Nathan Brown
      Learn how to prevent global warming <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
      joining me in making one simple change.

      On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > What is electrics?
      > >
      >
      > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea is that
      > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static feilds.
      > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you look at CO2
      > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity variable.
      >
      > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on the Talking
      > Tropics show:
      >
      > Here are the podcasts:
      >
      > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
      >
      > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
      >
      > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
      >
      > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
      >
      > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
      >
      > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
      >
      > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
      >
      > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
      >
      > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • pawnfart
      Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and tropical storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in physics, meterology from the
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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        Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and tropical
        storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in physics,
        meterology from the University of Texas and then he retired from the
        Air Force as a meteorologist. He then has been professionally in
        electrics after that for 40 years. I have a math science undergrad
        background, a law degree, and then military duty in electrics. I
        came to electrics and climate forcings through debate on places like
        here, and but came to these discussions with that understanding I had
        from the military plus an ability to put together ideas that comes
        from my legal training and profession.

        What I think is really basic stuff is you can't go directly from CO2
        as a green house gas to directly 'forcing' or dynamically changing
        what climate is. That's because of water in the air, basically. CO2
        as a green house gas accounts for 4 watts per meter squared whereas
        water depending on the kind of it in the air, will providw -100 watts
        per meter squared to 200 watts per meter squared. The assumptions
        have always been that the CO2 heats up the water and causes a
        feedback to increase water content in the air. But no in the main
        where along the line has cloud behaviors -- assuptions about cloud
        behaviors--been examined properly with electrics in mind. So the sub
        set of that unexamined area is what does CO2 changes mean to
        electrical changes that then force cloud behaviors. How could the
        correlations of climate change to present warming conditions match
        with CO2 by different mechanism.

        I urge anyone interested to listen to the podcasts about how
        decarbonation causes electrical changes at the heart of how
        hurricanes self organize. CO2 is critical in the climate process,
        but not the way the mainstream thinks.

        --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > What is your educational backgroundd?
        >
        > How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d What do
        you mean
        > when you say, "climate forcing?"
        >
        > Nathan Brown
        > Learn how to prevent global warming
        <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
        > joining me in making one simple change.
        >
        > On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%
        40yahoogroups.com>,
        > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > What is electrics?
        > > >
        > >
        > > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea is that
        > > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static feilds.
        > > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you look at
        CO2
        > > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity variable.
        > >
        > > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on the
        Talking
        > > Tropics show:
        > >
        > > Here are the podcasts:
        > >
        > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
        > >
        > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
        > >
        > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
        > >
        > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
        > >
        > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
        > >
        > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
        > >
        > > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
        > >
        > > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
        > >
        > > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Nathan Brown
        Being able to explain how everything works is different than being able to notice a strong correlation. It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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          Being able to explain how everything works is different than being able to
          notice a strong correlation.

          It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there is a very strong
          correlation between CO2 and the earth's temp. Don't you agree?

          Nathan Brown
          Learn how to prevent global warming <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
          joining me in making one simple change.

          On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          >
          > Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and tropical
          > storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in physics,
          > meterology from the University of Texas and then he retired from the
          > Air Force as a meteorologist. He then has been professionally in
          > electrics after that for 40 years. I have a math science undergrad
          > background, a law degree, and then military duty in electrics. I
          > came to electrics and climate forcings through debate on places like
          > here, and but came to these discussions with that understanding I had
          > from the military plus an ability to put together ideas that comes
          > from my legal training and profession.
          >
          > What I think is really basic stuff is you can't go directly from CO2
          > as a green house gas to directly 'forcing' or dynamically changing
          > what climate is. That's because of water in the air, basically. CO2
          > as a green house gas accounts for 4 watts per meter squared whereas
          > water depending on the kind of it in the air, will providw -100 watts
          > per meter squared to 200 watts per meter squared. The assumptions
          > have always been that the CO2 heats up the water and causes a
          > feedback to increase water content in the air. But no in the main
          > where along the line has cloud behaviors -- assuptions about cloud
          > behaviors--been examined properly with electrics in mind. So the sub
          > set of that unexamined area is what does CO2 changes mean to
          > electrical changes that then force cloud behaviors. How could the
          > correlations of climate change to present warming conditions match
          > with CO2 by different mechanism.
          >
          > I urge anyone interested to listen to the podcasts about how
          > decarbonation causes electrical changes at the heart of how
          > hurricanes self organize. CO2 is critical in the climate process,
          > but not the way the mainstream thinks.
          >
          > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > What is your educational backgroundd?
          > >
          > > How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d What do
          > you mean
          > > when you say, "climate forcing?"
          > >
          > > Nathan Brown
          > > Learn how to prevent global warming
          > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
          > > joining me in making one simple change.
          > >
          > > On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
          > 40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > What is electrics?
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea is that
          > > > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static feilds.
          > > > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you look at
          > CO2
          > > > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity variable.
          > > >
          > > > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on the
          > Talking
          > > > Tropics show:
          > > >
          > > > Here are the podcasts:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
          > > >
          > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
          > > >
          > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
          > > >
          > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
          > > >
          > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
          > > >
          > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
          > > >
          > > > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
          > > >
          > > > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
          > > >
          > > > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • pawnfart
          Nathan, That s a good question but my answer is coming from a different place. While I am a lawyer I am about a semester away from a math degree and I have
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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            Nathan,

            That's a good question but my answer is coming from a different
            place. While I am a lawyer I am about a semester away from a math
            degree and I have taken 5000 level probability courses in college.
            When you talk about correlation, especially getting into a detailed
            discussion like Steve McIntyre gets into at Audit, statistics
            provides a powerful tool, but it has limits. The hockey stick/Little
            Ice Age debate falls down to uncertainty unless there is an
            appreciation of electrics. BTW, there is a very good paper about the
            Little Ice Age by Keeling and Whorf located here:

            http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/070047197

            There are strong correlations, again, shown between the Little Ice
            Age and tidal cycles. Keeling and Whorf admittedly speculated that
            this cycle was due to tidal overturn. I think its due to electrical
            changes that tidal overturn brings by decarbonation.

            Regardless, my studies have been more about tropical storms--and
            that's how I get to the climate discussion, from that vantage. Here
            is an example of the state of the debate, IMHO:

            http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,233454,00.html

            "Yet global warming alarmists, including those at NOAA, expect us to
            unthinkingly"

            This is a good example of the language that the the fossil fuel
            apologists use as propaganda.

            'alarmist'

            'unthinkingly'

            I simply hate these inflamatory terms.

            First of all, Milloy is clueless about electrics. So 'unthinkingly'
            should apply to him. And in so applying, he has no standing to even
            be in the debate. Indeed, his only real argument he makes is
            economic, and even with that argument it fails to consider
            externalities, because his assumption here is that climate change
            comes with no costs that you could cause or do anything about.

            I was initially a poster with debunkers (Malloy's bb) but as soon as
            I became a skeptic of the skeptics, I realize the circle jerking goes
            both ways but EVERYONE is harmed by the censorship that occurs in the
            debate.

            Pretty much whatever the theory you can count of the fossil fuel
            apologists to make an argument that the fossil fuel consumption
            subsidies should be continued. Typically the argument goes chaos was,
            chaos is, burn fossil fuels. And that argument always has
            an 'uncertainty' aspect.

            The Little Ice Age against the hockey stick debate is only a variant
            of that argument.

            When Steve Malloy talks about the low tropical storm levels in the
            Atlantic, the meteorology community responds with discussions of El
            Nino and 'shear'. So Malloy is saying uncertainty and the meteorology
            community is saying predictable because of El Nino.

            But the questions about hurricanes and electrics remain. Why did
            Gilbert in 1988 get followed by a quiet year in the West Caribbean in
            1989? Or Wilma by a quiet year this year in the same basin? Electrics
            offers a solid reason with capactive couplings extending to the sub
            surface of the earth, and changing electrics there that decrease
            coupling potential for some time.

            Likewise the super El Nino call by James Hansen was forced by the
            super one that occurred in 1997-8, preventing a proximate
            reoccurance. A real discussion about how climate works cannot take
            place without electrics.

            And once you get to electrics, than you get to a living earth
            MODULATING electrics and instead of a chaotic system, you have a
            modulated one, and the whole chaos was, chaos is argument falls to
            bits.


            --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Being able to explain how everything works is different than being
            able to
            > notice a strong correlation.
            >
            > It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there is a very
            strong
            > correlation between CO2 and the earth's temp. Don't you agree?
            >
            > Nathan Brown
            > Learn how to prevent global warming
            <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
            > joining me in making one simple change.
            >
            > On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > >
            > > Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and
            tropical
            > > storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in physics,
            > > meterology from the University of Texas and then he retired from
            the
            > > Air Force as a meteorologist. He then has been professionally in
            > > electrics after that for 40 years. I have a math science undergrad
            > > background, a law degree, and then military duty in electrics. I
            > > came to electrics and climate forcings through debate on places
            like
            > > here, and but came to these discussions with that understanding I
            had
            > > from the military plus an ability to put together ideas that comes
            > > from my legal training and profession.
            > >
            > > What I think is really basic stuff is you can't go directly from
            CO2
            > > as a green house gas to directly 'forcing' or dynamically changing
            > > what climate is. That's because of water in the air, basically.
            CO2
            > > as a green house gas accounts for 4 watts per meter squared
            whereas
            > > water depending on the kind of it in the air, will providw -100
            watts
            > > per meter squared to 200 watts per meter squared. The assumptions
            > > have always been that the CO2 heats up the water and causes a
            > > feedback to increase water content in the air. But no in the main
            > > where along the line has cloud behaviors -- assuptions about cloud
            > > behaviors--been examined properly with electrics in mind. So the
            sub
            > > set of that unexamined area is what does CO2 changes mean to
            > > electrical changes that then force cloud behaviors. How could the
            > > correlations of climate change to present warming conditions match
            > > with CO2 by different mechanism.
            > >
            > > I urge anyone interested to listen to the podcasts about how
            > > decarbonation causes electrical changes at the heart of how
            > > hurricanes self organize. CO2 is critical in the climate process,
            > > but not the way the mainstream thinks.
            > >
            > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%
            40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > What is your educational backgroundd?
            > > >
            > > > How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d What do
            > > you mean
            > > > when you say, "climate forcing?"
            > > >
            > > > Nathan Brown
            > > > Learn how to prevent global warming
            > > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
            > > > joining me in making one simple change.
            > > >
            > > > On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%
            40yahoogroups.com>>
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%
            40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
            > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > What is electrics?
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea is
            that
            > > > > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static
            feilds.
            > > > > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you
            look at
            > > CO2
            > > > > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity variable.
            > > > >
            > > > > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on the
            > > Talking
            > > > > Tropics show:
            > > > >
            > > > > Here are the podcasts:
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
            > > > >
            > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
            > > > >
            > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
            > > > >
            > > > > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
            > > > >
            > > > > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • tarh7777
            Would you guys explain something to me. Even the most ardent GWer (at least anyone who has studied it at all) will agree to it being on the order of tenths or
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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              Would you guys explain something to me.
              Even the most ardent GWer (at least anyone who has studied it at all)
              will agree to it being on the order of tenths or hundredeths of a
              degree increase per year. And the usual annual temperature range most
              places is at least five degree per year and much more than that in the
              upper latitudes. The usual diurnal range also varies perhaps more than
              that.
              HOW IS IT THAT THE TINY INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE CAUSED BY GLOBAL
              WARMING IS MORE SIGNIFICANT IN CAUSING HURRICANES THAN THE MUCH GREATER
              INCREASE DUE TO ANNUAL OR DIURNAL WARMING?
              I think someone is trying to conn us.
            • Nathan Brown
              The annual and diurnal warming continue while the overal tempature goes up. Also, the annual and diurnal fluctuations in temp do have a hug impace on
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                The annual and diurnal warming continue while the overal tempature goes up.

                Also, the annual and diurnal fluctuations in temp do have a hug impace on
                hurricanes. Hurricanes only happen during the warm part of the year!

                Does this answer your question?

                Nathan Brown
                Learn how to prevent global warming <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                making one simple change.

                On 12/2/06, tarh7777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                >
                > Would you guys explain something to me.
                > Even the most ardent GWer (at least anyone who has studied it at all)
                > will agree to it being on the order of tenths or hundredeths of a
                > degree increase per year. And the usual annual temperature range most
                > places is at least five degree per year and much more than that in the
                > upper latitudes. The usual diurnal range also varies perhaps more than
                > that.
                > HOW IS IT THAT THE TINY INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE CAUSED BY GLOBAL
                > WARMING IS MORE SIGNIFICANT IN CAUSING HURRICANES THAN THE MUCH GREATER
                > INCREASE DUE TO ANNUAL OR DIURNAL WARMING?
                > I think someone is trying to conn us.
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nathan Brown
                I wasn t talking about the hockey stick, little ice age debate. From the evidence I ve seen it seems that the fluctuations in temp and CO2 are clearly
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
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                  I wasn't talking about the hockey stick, little ice age debate. From the
                  evidence I've seen it seems that the fluctuations in temp and CO2 are
                  clearly related, but there is noise in the relationship that shows up in
                  things like the little ice age difference.

                  Also, I'm interested in what you are saying about electrics, but I don't
                  take fox news as a credible source.

                  Do you have other sources you could reference that talk about the general
                  theory of electrics?

                  Nathan Brown
                  Learn how to prevent global warming <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                  joining me in making one simple change.


                  On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  >
                  > Nathan,
                  >
                  > That's a good question but my answer is coming from a different
                  > place. While I am a lawyer I am about a semester away from a math
                  > degree and I have taken 5000 level probability courses in college.
                  > When you talk about correlation, especially getting into a detailed
                  > discussion like Steve McIntyre gets into at Audit, statistics
                  > provides a powerful tool, but it has limits. The hockey stick/Little
                  > Ice Age debate falls down to uncertainty unless there is an
                  > appreciation of electrics. BTW, there is a very good paper about the
                  > Little Ice Age by Keeling and Whorf located here:
                  >
                  > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/070047197
                  >
                  > There are strong correlations, again, shown between the Little Ice
                  > Age and tidal cycles. Keeling and Whorf admittedly speculated that
                  > this cycle was due to tidal overturn. I think its due to electrical
                  > changes that tidal overturn brings by decarbonation.
                  >
                  > Regardless, my studies have been more about tropical storms--and
                  > that's how I get to the climate discussion, from that vantage. Here
                  > is an example of the state of the debate, IMHO:
                  >
                  > http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,233454,00.html
                  >
                  > "Yet global warming alarmists, including those at NOAA, expect us to
                  > unthinkingly"
                  >
                  > This is a good example of the language that the the fossil fuel
                  > apologists use as propaganda.
                  >
                  > 'alarmist'
                  >
                  > 'unthinkingly'
                  >
                  > I simply hate these inflamatory terms.
                  >
                  > First of all, Milloy is clueless about electrics. So 'unthinkingly'
                  > should apply to him. And in so applying, he has no standing to even
                  > be in the debate. Indeed, his only real argument he makes is
                  > economic, and even with that argument it fails to consider
                  > externalities, because his assumption here is that climate change
                  > comes with no costs that you could cause or do anything about.
                  >
                  > I was initially a poster with debunkers (Malloy's bb) but as soon as
                  > I became a skeptic of the skeptics, I realize the circle jerking goes
                  > both ways but EVERYONE is harmed by the censorship that occurs in the
                  > debate.
                  >
                  > Pretty much whatever the theory you can count of the fossil fuel
                  > apologists to make an argument that the fossil fuel consumption
                  > subsidies should be continued. Typically the argument goes chaos was,
                  > chaos is, burn fossil fuels. And that argument always has
                  > an 'uncertainty' aspect.
                  >
                  > The Little Ice Age against the hockey stick debate is only a variant
                  > of that argument.
                  >
                  > When Steve Malloy talks about the low tropical storm levels in the
                  > Atlantic, the meteorology community responds with discussions of El
                  > Nino and 'shear'. So Malloy is saying uncertainty and the meteorology
                  > community is saying predictable because of El Nino.
                  >
                  > But the questions about hurricanes and electrics remain. Why did
                  > Gilbert in 1988 get followed by a quiet year in the West Caribbean in
                  > 1989? Or Wilma by a quiet year this year in the same basin? Electrics
                  > offers a solid reason with capactive couplings extending to the sub
                  > surface of the earth, and changing electrics there that decrease
                  > coupling potential for some time.
                  >
                  > Likewise the super El Nino call by James Hansen was forced by the
                  > super one that occurred in 1997-8, preventing a proximate
                  > reoccurance. A real discussion about how climate works cannot take
                  > place without electrics.
                  >
                  > And once you get to electrics, than you get to a living earth
                  > MODULATING electrics and instead of a chaotic system, you have a
                  > modulated one, and the whole chaos was, chaos is argument falls to
                  > bits.
                  >
                  > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Being able to explain how everything works is different than being
                  > able to
                  > > notice a strong correlation.
                  > >
                  > > It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there is a very
                  > strong
                  > > correlation between CO2 and the earth's temp. Don't you agree?
                  > >
                  > > Nathan Brown
                  > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                  > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                  > > joining me in making one simple change.
                  > >
                  > > On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and
                  > tropical
                  > > > storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in physics,
                  > > > meterology from the University of Texas and then he retired from
                  > the
                  > > > Air Force as a meteorologist. He then has been professionally in
                  > > > electrics after that for 40 years. I have a math science undergrad
                  > > > background, a law degree, and then military duty in electrics. I
                  > > > came to electrics and climate forcings through debate on places
                  > like
                  > > > here, and but came to these discussions with that understanding I
                  > had
                  > > > from the military plus an ability to put together ideas that comes
                  > > > from my legal training and profession.
                  > > >
                  > > > What I think is really basic stuff is you can't go directly from
                  > CO2
                  > > > as a green house gas to directly 'forcing' or dynamically changing
                  > > > what climate is. That's because of water in the air, basically.
                  > CO2
                  > > > as a green house gas accounts for 4 watts per meter squared
                  > whereas
                  > > > water depending on the kind of it in the air, will providw -100
                  > watts
                  > > > per meter squared to 200 watts per meter squared. The assumptions
                  > > > have always been that the CO2 heats up the water and causes a
                  > > > feedback to increase water content in the air. But no in the main
                  > > > where along the line has cloud behaviors -- assuptions about cloud
                  > > > behaviors--been examined properly with electrics in mind. So the
                  > sub
                  > > > set of that unexamined area is what does CO2 changes mean to
                  > > > electrical changes that then force cloud behaviors. How could the
                  > > > correlations of climate change to present warming conditions match
                  > > > with CO2 by different mechanism.
                  > > >
                  > > > I urge anyone interested to listen to the podcasts about how
                  > > > decarbonation causes electrical changes at the heart of how
                  > > > hurricanes self organize. CO2 is critical in the climate process,
                  > > > but not the way the mainstream thinks.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What is your educational backgroundd?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d What do
                  > > > you mean
                  > > > > when you say, "climate forcing?"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Nathan Brown
                  > > > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                  > > > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                  > > > > joining me in making one simple change.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <no_reply%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com<globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                  > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                  > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > What is electrics?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea is
                  > that
                  > > > > > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static
                  > feilds.
                  > > > > > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you
                  > look at
                  > > > CO2
                  > > > > > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity variable.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on the
                  > > > Talking
                  > > > > > Tropics show:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Here are the podcasts:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • pawnfart
                  Nathan I have to go to this cheer leading comp for one of my kids so I won t be around for the next day or so. But there is a great place to go where I have a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Nathan I have to go to this cheer leading comp for one of my kids so
                    I won't be around for the next day or so. But there is a great place
                    to go where I have a huge number of links. It's The Weather Channel
                    bb tropics thread. It's located at http://www.weather.com/interact
                    and then go to tropics. A lot of it is real time monitoring of
                    storms. For instance you can see a discussion from electrics
                    standpoint on Durian. I post as Purple Heart. Got to go.

                    Mike

                    --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I wasn't talking about the hockey stick, little ice age debate.
                    From the
                    > evidence I've seen it seems that the fluctuations in temp and CO2
                    are
                    > clearly related, but there is noise in the relationship that shows
                    up in
                    > things like the little ice age difference.
                    >
                    > Also, I'm interested in what you are saying about electrics, but I
                    don't
                    > take fox news as a credible source.
                    >
                    > Do you have other sources you could reference that talk about the
                    general
                    > theory of electrics?
                    >
                    > Nathan Brown
                    > Learn how to prevent global warming
                    <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                    > joining me in making one simple change.
                    >
                    >
                    > On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Nathan,
                    > >
                    > > That's a good question but my answer is coming from a different
                    > > place. While I am a lawyer I am about a semester away from a math
                    > > degree and I have taken 5000 level probability courses in college.
                    > > When you talk about correlation, especially getting into a
                    detailed
                    > > discussion like Steve McIntyre gets into at Audit, statistics
                    > > provides a powerful tool, but it has limits. The hockey
                    stick/Little
                    > > Ice Age debate falls down to uncertainty unless there is an
                    > > appreciation of electrics. BTW, there is a very good paper about
                    the
                    > > Little Ice Age by Keeling and Whorf located here:
                    > >
                    > > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/070047197
                    > >
                    > > There are strong correlations, again, shown between the Little Ice
                    > > Age and tidal cycles. Keeling and Whorf admittedly speculated that
                    > > this cycle was due to tidal overturn. I think its due to
                    electrical
                    > > changes that tidal overturn brings by decarbonation.
                    > >
                    > > Regardless, my studies have been more about tropical storms--and
                    > > that's how I get to the climate discussion, from that vantage.
                    Here
                    > > is an example of the state of the debate, IMHO:
                    > >
                    > >
                    http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,233454,00.html
                    > >
                    > > "Yet global warming alarmists, including those at NOAA, expect us
                    to
                    > > unthinkingly"
                    > >
                    > > This is a good example of the language that the the fossil fuel
                    > > apologists use as propaganda.
                    > >
                    > > 'alarmist'
                    > >
                    > > 'unthinkingly'
                    > >
                    > > I simply hate these inflamatory terms.
                    > >
                    > > First of all, Milloy is clueless about electrics.
                    So 'unthinkingly'
                    > > should apply to him. And in so applying, he has no standing to
                    even
                    > > be in the debate. Indeed, his only real argument he makes is
                    > > economic, and even with that argument it fails to consider
                    > > externalities, because his assumption here is that climate change
                    > > comes with no costs that you could cause or do anything about.
                    > >
                    > > I was initially a poster with debunkers (Malloy's bb) but as soon
                    as
                    > > I became a skeptic of the skeptics, I realize the circle jerking
                    goes
                    > > both ways but EVERYONE is harmed by the censorship that occurs in
                    the
                    > > debate.
                    > >
                    > > Pretty much whatever the theory you can count of the fossil fuel
                    > > apologists to make an argument that the fossil fuel consumption
                    > > subsidies should be continued. Typically the argument goes chaos
                    was,
                    > > chaos is, burn fossil fuels. And that argument always has
                    > > an 'uncertainty' aspect.
                    > >
                    > > The Little Ice Age against the hockey stick debate is only a
                    variant
                    > > of that argument.
                    > >
                    > > When Steve Malloy talks about the low tropical storm levels in the
                    > > Atlantic, the meteorology community responds with discussions of
                    El
                    > > Nino and 'shear'. So Malloy is saying uncertainty and the
                    meteorology
                    > > community is saying predictable because of El Nino.
                    > >
                    > > But the questions about hurricanes and electrics remain. Why did
                    > > Gilbert in 1988 get followed by a quiet year in the West
                    Caribbean in
                    > > 1989? Or Wilma by a quiet year this year in the same basin?
                    Electrics
                    > > offers a solid reason with capactive couplings extending to the
                    sub
                    > > surface of the earth, and changing electrics there that decrease
                    > > coupling potential for some time.
                    > >
                    > > Likewise the super El Nino call by James Hansen was forced by the
                    > > super one that occurred in 1997-8, preventing a proximate
                    > > reoccurance. A real discussion about how climate works cannot take
                    > > place without electrics.
                    > >
                    > > And once you get to electrics, than you get to a living earth
                    > > MODULATING electrics and instead of a chaotic system, you have a
                    > > modulated one, and the whole chaos was, chaos is argument falls to
                    > > bits.
                    > >
                    > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%
                    40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Being able to explain how everything works is different than
                    being
                    > > able to
                    > > > notice a strong correlation.
                    > > >
                    > > > It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there is a very
                    > > strong
                    > > > correlation between CO2 and the earth's temp. Don't you agree?
                    > > >
                    > > > Nathan Brown
                    > > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                    > > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                    > > > joining me in making one simple change.
                    > > >
                    > > > On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%
                    40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and
                    > > tropical
                    > > > > storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in
                    physics,
                    > > > > meterology from the University of Texas and then he retired
                    from
                    > > the
                    > > > > Air Force as a meteorologist. He then has been professionally
                    in
                    > > > > electrics after that for 40 years. I have a math science
                    undergrad
                    > > > > background, a law degree, and then military duty in
                    electrics. I
                    > > > > came to electrics and climate forcings through debate on
                    places
                    > > like
                    > > > > here, and but came to these discussions with that
                    understanding I
                    > > had
                    > > > > from the military plus an ability to put together ideas that
                    comes
                    > > > > from my legal training and profession.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What I think is really basic stuff is you can't go directly
                    from
                    > > CO2
                    > > > > as a green house gas to directly 'forcing' or dynamically
                    changing
                    > > > > what climate is. That's because of water in the air,
                    basically.
                    > > CO2
                    > > > > as a green house gas accounts for 4 watts per meter squared
                    > > whereas
                    > > > > water depending on the kind of it in the air, will providw -
                    100
                    > > watts
                    > > > > per meter squared to 200 watts per meter squared. The
                    assumptions
                    > > > > have always been that the CO2 heats up the water and causes a
                    > > > > feedback to increase water content in the air. But no in the
                    main
                    > > > > where along the line has cloud behaviors -- assuptions about
                    cloud
                    > > > > behaviors--been examined properly with electrics in mind. So
                    the
                    > > sub
                    > > > > set of that unexamined area is what does CO2 changes mean to
                    > > > > electrical changes that then force cloud behaviors. How could
                    the
                    > > > > correlations of climate change to present warming conditions
                    match
                    > > > > with CO2 by different mechanism.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I urge anyone interested to listen to the podcasts about how
                    > > > > decarbonation causes electrical changes at the heart of how
                    > > > > hurricanes self organize. CO2 is critical in the climate
                    process,
                    > > > > but not the way the mainstream thinks.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%
                    40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > What is your educational backgroundd?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d
                    What do
                    > > > > you mean
                    > > > > > when you say, "climate forcing?"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Nathan Brown
                    > > > > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                    > > > > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                    > > > > > joining me in making one simple change.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%
                    40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > <no_reply%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com<globalwarming%
                    40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                    > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                    > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > What is electrics?
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea
                    is
                    > > that
                    > > > > > > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static
                    > > feilds.
                    > > > > > > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you
                    > > look at
                    > > > > CO2
                    > > > > > > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity
                    variable.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on
                    the
                    > > > > Talking
                    > > > > > > Tropics show:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Here are the podcasts:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • tarh7777
                    You did not even begin to answer the question. There are too many other tiny variances occurring in the world which could cause hurricanes if your hypothesis
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You did not even begin to answer the question. There are too many
                      other tiny variances occurring in the world which could cause
                      hurricanes if your hypothesis were true.


                      -- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > The annual and diurnal warming continue while the overal tempature
                      goes up.
                      >
                      > Also, the annual and diurnal fluctuations in temp do have a hug
                      impace on
                      > hurricanes. Hurricanes only happen during the warm part of the
                      year!
                      >
                      > Does this answer your question?
                      >
                      > Nathan Brown
                      > Learn how to prevent global warming
                      <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                      > making one simple change.
                      >
                      > On 12/2/06, tarh7777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Would you guys explain something to me.
                      > > Even the most ardent GWer (at least anyone who has studied it at
                      all)
                      > > will agree to it being on the order of tenths or hundredeths of a
                      > > degree increase per year. And the usual annual temperature range
                      most
                      > > places is at least five degree per year and much more than that
                      in the
                      > > upper latitudes. The usual diurnal range also varies perhaps more
                      than
                      > > that.
                      > > HOW IS IT THAT THE TINY INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE CAUSED BY GLOBAL
                      > > WARMING IS MORE SIGNIFICANT IN CAUSING HURRICANES THAN THE MUCH
                      GREATER
                      > > INCREASE DUE TO ANNUAL OR DIURNAL WARMING?
                      > > I think someone is trying to conn us.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • pawnfart
                      The electrics answer is simple. For each degF there is a one percent drop in resistance. Lightning occurs typically in the late afternoon, which gives some
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The electrics answer is simple.

                        For each degF there is a one percent drop in resistance.

                        Lightning occurs typically in the late afternoon, which gives some
                        diurnal character to a tropical storm, but a tropical storm is formed
                        from a capacitive coupling of displacement currents from lightning,
                        which may be on the other side of the world. These potential
                        differences are created in the ionosphere and oceans and travel along
                        these conductive mediums providing that potential difference
                        globally, both day and night. So if you decrease the resistances by
                        increasing the temperatures of the oceans, you are going to get
                        global increases in electrics. At the same time, the question is
                        moot because with increases in CO2 you don't have to go to an
                        indirect feedback in warming SSTs--you go directly to CO2 which from
                        outgassing of CO2 has conductivity implication with surface lows and
                        the ion counts that occur there.

                        --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, tarh7777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You did not even begin to answer the question. There are too many
                        > other tiny variances occurring in the world which could cause
                        > hurricanes if your hypothesis were true.
                        >
                        >
                        > -- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The annual and diurnal warming continue while the overal
                        tempature
                        > goes up.
                        > >
                        > > Also, the annual and diurnal fluctuations in temp do have a hug
                        > impace on
                        > > hurricanes. Hurricanes only happen during the warm part of the
                        > year!
                        > >
                        > > Does this answer your question?
                        > >
                        > > Nathan Brown
                        > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                        > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                        > > making one simple change.
                        > >
                        > > On 12/2/06, tarh7777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Would you guys explain something to me.
                        > > > Even the most ardent GWer (at least anyone who has studied it
                        at
                        > all)
                        > > > will agree to it being on the order of tenths or hundredeths of
                        a
                        > > > degree increase per year. And the usual annual temperature
                        range
                        > most
                        > > > places is at least five degree per year and much more than that
                        > in the
                        > > > upper latitudes. The usual diurnal range also varies perhaps
                        more
                        > than
                        > > > that.
                        > > > HOW IS IT THAT THE TINY INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE CAUSED BY GLOBAL
                        > > > WARMING IS MORE SIGNIFICANT IN CAUSING HURRICANES THAN THE MUCH
                        > GREATER
                        > > > INCREASE DUE TO ANNUAL OR DIURNAL WARMING?
                        > > > I think someone is trying to conn us.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • Mark Koskenmaki
                        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                          neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
                          email me at mark at neofast dot net
                          541-969-8200
                          Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
                          To: <globalwarming@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:51 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Global Warming] Re: Tropical Cyclones (Hurricanes) and Climate
                          Change


                          > Being able to explain how everything works is different than being able to
                          > notice a strong correlation.
                          >
                          > It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there is a very strong
                          > correlation between CO2 and the earth's temp. Don't you agree?
                          >
                          > Nathan Brown


                          The Hockey Stick is pure garbage.
                        • Nathan Brown
                          Mike, I m not looking for tons of links, I m looking for a basic explanation of what you are talking about. Nathan Brown Learn how to prevent global warming
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Mike,

                            I'm not looking for tons of links, I'm looking for a basic explanation of
                            what you are talking about.

                            Nathan Brown
                            Learn how to prevent global warming <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                            joining me in making one simple change.

                            On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                            >
                            > Nathan I have to go to this cheer leading comp for one of my kids so
                            > I won't be around for the next day or so. But there is a great place
                            > to go where I have a huge number of links. It's The Weather Channel
                            > bb tropics thread. It's located at http://www.weather.com/interact
                            > and then go to tropics. A lot of it is real time monitoring of
                            > storms. For instance you can see a discussion from electrics
                            > standpoint on Durian. I post as Purple Heart. Got to go.
                            >
                            > Mike
                            >
                            > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I wasn't talking about the hockey stick, little ice age debate.
                            > From the
                            > > evidence I've seen it seems that the fluctuations in temp and CO2
                            > are
                            > > clearly related, but there is noise in the relationship that shows
                            > up in
                            > > things like the little ice age difference.
                            > >
                            > > Also, I'm interested in what you are saying about electrics, but I
                            > don't
                            > > take fox news as a credible source.
                            > >
                            > > Do you have other sources you could reference that talk about the
                            > general
                            > > theory of electrics?
                            > >
                            > > Nathan Brown
                            > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                            > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                            > > joining me in making one simple change.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Nathan,
                            > > >
                            > > > That's a good question but my answer is coming from a different
                            > > > place. While I am a lawyer I am about a semester away from a math
                            > > > degree and I have taken 5000 level probability courses in college.
                            > > > When you talk about correlation, especially getting into a
                            > detailed
                            > > > discussion like Steve McIntyre gets into at Audit, statistics
                            > > > provides a powerful tool, but it has limits. The hockey
                            > stick/Little
                            > > > Ice Age debate falls down to uncertainty unless there is an
                            > > > appreciation of electrics. BTW, there is a very good paper about
                            > the
                            > > > Little Ice Age by Keeling and Whorf located here:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/070047197
                            > > >
                            > > > There are strong correlations, again, shown between the Little Ice
                            > > > Age and tidal cycles. Keeling and Whorf admittedly speculated that
                            > > > this cycle was due to tidal overturn. I think its due to
                            > electrical
                            > > > changes that tidal overturn brings by decarbonation.
                            > > >
                            > > > Regardless, my studies have been more about tropical storms--and
                            > > > that's how I get to the climate discussion, from that vantage.
                            > Here
                            > > > is an example of the state of the debate, IMHO:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,233454,00.html
                            > > >
                            > > > "Yet global warming alarmists, including those at NOAA, expect us
                            > to
                            > > > unthinkingly"
                            > > >
                            > > > This is a good example of the language that the the fossil fuel
                            > > > apologists use as propaganda.
                            > > >
                            > > > 'alarmist'
                            > > >
                            > > > 'unthinkingly'
                            > > >
                            > > > I simply hate these inflamatory terms.
                            > > >
                            > > > First of all, Milloy is clueless about electrics.
                            > So 'unthinkingly'
                            > > > should apply to him. And in so applying, he has no standing to
                            > even
                            > > > be in the debate. Indeed, his only real argument he makes is
                            > > > economic, and even with that argument it fails to consider
                            > > > externalities, because his assumption here is that climate change
                            > > > comes with no costs that you could cause or do anything about.
                            > > >
                            > > > I was initially a poster with debunkers (Malloy's bb) but as soon
                            > as
                            > > > I became a skeptic of the skeptics, I realize the circle jerking
                            > goes
                            > > > both ways but EVERYONE is harmed by the censorship that occurs in
                            > the
                            > > > debate.
                            > > >
                            > > > Pretty much whatever the theory you can count of the fossil fuel
                            > > > apologists to make an argument that the fossil fuel consumption
                            > > > subsidies should be continued. Typically the argument goes chaos
                            > was,
                            > > > chaos is, burn fossil fuels. And that argument always has
                            > > > an 'uncertainty' aspect.
                            > > >
                            > > > The Little Ice Age against the hockey stick debate is only a
                            > variant
                            > > > of that argument.
                            > > >
                            > > > When Steve Malloy talks about the low tropical storm levels in the
                            > > > Atlantic, the meteorology community responds with discussions of
                            > El
                            > > > Nino and 'shear'. So Malloy is saying uncertainty and the
                            > meteorology
                            > > > community is saying predictable because of El Nino.
                            > > >
                            > > > But the questions about hurricanes and electrics remain. Why did
                            > > > Gilbert in 1988 get followed by a quiet year in the West
                            > Caribbean in
                            > > > 1989? Or Wilma by a quiet year this year in the same basin?
                            > Electrics
                            > > > offers a solid reason with capactive couplings extending to the
                            > sub
                            > > > surface of the earth, and changing electrics there that decrease
                            > > > coupling potential for some time.
                            > > >
                            > > > Likewise the super El Nino call by James Hansen was forced by the
                            > > > super one that occurred in 1997-8, preventing a proximate
                            > > > reoccurance. A real discussion about how climate works cannot take
                            > > > place without electrics.
                            > > >
                            > > > And once you get to electrics, than you get to a living earth
                            > > > MODULATING electrics and instead of a chaotic system, you have a
                            > > > modulated one, and the whole chaos was, chaos is argument falls to
                            > > > bits.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com <globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                            > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Being able to explain how everything works is different than
                            > being
                            > > > able to
                            > > > > notice a strong correlation.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It seems clear from the hockey stick graph that there is a very
                            > > > strong
                            > > > > correlation between CO2 and the earth's temp. Don't you agree?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Nathan Brown
                            > > > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                            > > > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                            > > > > joining me in making one simple change.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On 12/2/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <no_reply%
                            > 40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Both my father and I are writing a paper on electrics and
                            > > > tropical
                            > > > > > storms/climate. His background is a undergrad degree in
                            > physics,
                            > > > > > meterology from the University of Texas and then he retired
                            > from
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > Air Force as a meteorologist. He then has been professionally
                            > in
                            > > > > > electrics after that for 40 years. I have a math science
                            > undergrad
                            > > > > > background, a law degree, and then military duty in
                            > electrics. I
                            > > > > > came to electrics and climate forcings through debate on
                            > places
                            > > > like
                            > > > > > here, and but came to these discussions with that
                            > understanding I
                            > > > had
                            > > > > > from the military plus an ability to put together ideas that
                            > comes
                            > > > > > from my legal training and profession.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > What I think is really basic stuff is you can't go directly
                            > from
                            > > > CO2
                            > > > > > as a green house gas to directly 'forcing' or dynamically
                            > changing
                            > > > > > what climate is. That's because of water in the air,
                            > basically.
                            > > > CO2
                            > > > > > as a green house gas accounts for 4 watts per meter squared
                            > > > whereas
                            > > > > > water depending on the kind of it in the air, will providw -
                            > 100
                            > > > watts
                            > > > > > per meter squared to 200 watts per meter squared. The
                            > assumptions
                            > > > > > have always been that the CO2 heats up the water and causes a
                            > > > > > feedback to increase water content in the air. But no in the
                            > main
                            > > > > > where along the line has cloud behaviors -- assuptions about
                            > cloud
                            > > > > > behaviors--been examined properly with electrics in mind. So
                            > the
                            > > > sub
                            > > > > > set of that unexamined area is what does CO2 changes mean to
                            > > > > > electrical changes that then force cloud behaviors. How could
                            > the
                            > > > > > correlations of climate change to present warming conditions
                            > match
                            > > > > > with CO2 by different mechanism.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I urge anyone interested to listen to the podcasts about how
                            > > > > > decarbonation causes electrical changes at the heart of how
                            > > > > > hurricanes self organize. CO2 is critical in the climate
                            > process,
                            > > > > > but not the way the mainstream thinks.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com<globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                            > 40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                            > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                            > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > What is your educational backgroundd?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > How does conductivity of CO2 relate to global warming?d
                            > What do
                            > > > > > you mean
                            > > > > > > when you say, "climate forcing?"
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Nathan Brown
                            > > > > > > Learn how to prevent global warming
                            > > > > > <http://www.acoolerclimate.com/yg> by
                            > > > > > > joining me in making one simple change.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > On 12/1/06, pawnfart <no_reply@yahoogroups.com<no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <no_reply%
                            > 40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > <no_reply%
                            > > > 40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com<globalwarming%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <globalwarming%
                            > 40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                            > > > 40yahoogroups.com><globalwarming%
                            > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > > > > > > "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@>
                            > > > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > What is electrics?
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Electrics is a complexity on the climate topic. The idea
                            > is
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > > > cloud microphysics behave differently in changing static
                            > > > feilds.
                            > > > > > > > Then, when you look at CO2 as a climate forcing, than you
                            > > > look at
                            > > > > > CO2
                            > > > > > > > not just as a green house gas, but as a conductivity
                            > variable.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > These ideas in summary form were presented by podcasts on
                            > the
                            > > > > > Talking
                            > > > > > > > Tropics show:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Here are the podcasts:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/talkintropics.htm
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_05_18.mp3
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_08_10.mp3
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I am on 25 minutes into the show.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.podweather.com/index.php?id=1599
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > On the Nov 2 TT I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • pawnfart
                            I actually talked to Richard Lindzen on the phone yesterday about the paper my father and I are writing. We talked for about a half hour, and I made him late
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                              I actually talked to Richard Lindzen on the phone yesterday about the
                              paper my father and I are writing. We talked for about a half hour,
                              and I made him late for an appointment. The material that we talked
                              about was summed pretty much in this segment of the Talkin Tropics
                              show:


                              > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.
                              > >
                              > > http://www.tropicalupdate.com/audio/tt_2006_07_06.mp3
                              > >
                              > > I am on 20 minutes into the show.

                              The major improvement in the theory my father and I are introducing
                              since then is the model of a tropical storm includes electrical
                              implications not just from space above but also from the earth
                              below. That is about 40 minutes of audio and if you listen to it--
                              take the time to do so, your questions will IMHO become 1,000% more
                              pointed and intelligent and I won't have to repeat myself and I am
                              getting shorter on time to do this kind of chatting.

                              Alot of what I talked about with Prof Lindzen yesterday included
                              repeating much of what was said in that first show. What was not
                              said there was more to earth core magnetics and cloud behaviors on my
                              behalf and suggestions and skeptical feedback on his.

                              I have had a chance to think about most of what his skepical comments
                              were and I basically have satisfied myself, anyway, of most of his
                              comments. There is only one comment I might not be able to respond
                              to, only because some of the discussion of the 'iris' mathematics is
                              beyond me and I haven't read recent papers and data related to
                              the 'iris' paper.

                              Mike Doran

                              --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Brown" <Nathandg@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > I'm not looking for tons of links, I'm looking for a basic
                              explanation of
                              > what you are talking about.
                              >
                              > Nathan Brown
                            • Ken MacClune
                              A comment by Judith Curry on the WMO report from Roger Jr. Blog.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 11, 2006
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                                A comment by Judith Curry on the WMO report from Roger Jr. Blog.

                                http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/001011that_didnt_take_lon.html

                                http://tinyurl.com/vdfn6

                                "Roger, you are missing a key issue in the hurricane/global warming
                                debate. Hurricane forecasters/researchers (represented by the WMO
                                group) and climate researchers have different perspectives on this.
                                The WMO group consists of hurricane researchers and operational
                                forecasters, a large number of whom are former students of Bill
                                Gray's; only Knutsen and Emanuel bridge to the climate communities. So
                                I would not call the WMO report a broad consensus statement. If anyone
                                is attending the AGU meeting next week, you will be exposed to a huge
                                number of papers (mostly from the climate research community) on the
                                topic of hurricanes and global warming. So there is no "consensus"
                                statement that is accepted by both the community of climate
                                researchers and hurricane researchers/forecasters involved in
                                conducting research on this subject. Mike Mann's statement is
                                consistent with with the opinion of a number of climate researchers.
                                There have been several attempts to bridge the divide; I made such an
                                attempt in my August BAMS article. But it is premature to accept the
                                WMO statement as any kind of a broad consensus on this subject."


                                --- In globalwarming@yahoogroups.com, "Ken MacClune"
                                <kenneth.mack@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > WMO Consensus Statement on Tropical Cyclones and Climate Change
                                >
                                > The global community of tropical cyclone researchers and
                                > forecasters as represented at the 6th International Workshop on
                                > Tropical Cyclones of the World Meteorological Organization has
                                > released a statement on the links between anthropogenic
                                > (human-induced) climate change and tropical cyclones, including
                                > hurricanes and typhoons.
                                >
                                > The ten consensus statements are as follows:
                                >
                                > Consensus Statements by International Workshop on Tropical
                                > Cyclones-VI (IWTC-VI) Participants
                                >
                                > 1. Though there is evidence both for and against the existence of
                                > a detectable anthropogenic signal in the tropical cyclone climate
                                > record to date, no firm conclusion can be made on this point.
                                >
                                > 2. No individual tropical cyclone can be directly attributed to
                                > climate change.
                                >
                                > 3. The recent increase in societal impact from tropical cyclones
                                > has largely been caused by rising concentrations of population and
                                > infrastructure in coastal regions.
                                >
                                > 4. Tropical cyclone wind-speed monitoring has changed dramatically
                                > over the last few decades, leading to difficulties in determining
                                > accurate trends.
                                >
                                > 5. There is an observed multi-decadal variability of tropical
                                > cyclones in some regions whose causes, whether natural, anthropogenic
                                > or a combination, are currently being debated. This variability makes
                                > detecting any long-term trends in tropical cyclone activity
                                difficult.
                                >
                                > 6. It is likely that some increase in tropical cyclone peak
                                > wind-speed and rainfall will occur if the climate continues to warm.
                                > Model studies and theory project a 3-5% increase in wind-speed per
                                > degree Celsius increase of tropical sea surface temperatures.
                                >
                                > 7. There is an inconsistency between the small changes in
                                > wind-speed projected by theory and modeling versus large changes
                                > reported by some observational studies.
                                >
                                > 8. Although recent climate model simulations project a decrease or
                                > no change in global tropical cyclone numbers in a warmer climate,
                                > there is low confidence in this projection. In addition, it is unknown
                                > how tropical cyclone tracks or areas of impact will change in the
                                future.
                                >
                                > 9. Large regional variations exist in methods used to monitor
                                > tropical cyclones. Also, most regions have no measurements by
                                > instrumented aircraft. These significant limitations will continue to
                                > make detection of trends difficult.
                                >
                                > 10. If the projected rise in sea level due to global warming
                                > occurs, then the vulnerability to tropical cyclone storm surge
                                > flooding would increase.
                                >
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