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NING and the purpose of a Global Villages Network

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  • Franz Nahrada
    dear all, some time ago, with little success, I have set up a NING site for strengthening our online community system. NING is a wonderful technical solution,
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 29, 2008
      dear all,

      some time ago, with little success, I have set up a NING site for
      strengthening our online community system. NING is a wonderful technical
      solution, and also Andrius has begun to shift much of our work to NING by
      creating a workgroups NING. He asked me to also create a globalvillages
      group there which I finally did.

      http://globalvillages.ning.com - the network page for an emerging
      organisation promoting local autonomy and global networking
      http://worknets.ning.com/group/globalvillages - the group page in
      Worknets, dedicated to the personal contact of independent thinkers in
      Global Villages

      Recently, a few other people followed this example. Les Squires from
      Colorado has successfully started to create NINGs for the transition town
      movement and we started this, based on the help of Sandi Brockway in
      Cambria CA:

      http://transitioneurope.ning.com - its about villages and towns shifting
      from fossil resources to alternatives facing peak oil and the climate
      crisis

      I invited Phil Turner from ECOVAST to transitioneurope because he collects
      valuable resources about renewable energy - and he created this because he
      has another general interest:

      http://ecovastdiscussion.ning.com/ - about the effort to preserve
      villages and small towns as a valid and central pattern of our life.

      Nice structures, but are we going to populate them?

      Yes I think we will, and one of the key issues is that we can allow people
      to work closer together on the base of sharing materials for their very
      partcicular perspective. We can use additional services like slideshare to
      put powerpoints online and so on.

      But we must be clear about purpose and perspective. Each of this networks
      must have different focus, at the same time they all must be communicating
      vessels that strengthen and support each other. In fact, they mutually
      multiply each other if people find the way to their own core motive
      manifested in a social creation.

      Today I was reading another mailing list, bricolab, a group mainly
      focussing on the role of media in local and social development. They had
      several letters from France which were more general in focus, and I
      thought: Yes, this conversation is a wonderful explanation why we need a
      Global Vilages Network.

      So I want to equote these letters and my answer: bugging all of you again
      to subscribe to the Globalvillages and/or NING.

      The conversation is about Italy and France and the drastical political
      changes that affect the core of the European Welfare and Social System.

      somebody linked to a flyer here:
      http://www.radicaleurope.org/texts/nogelmini_polyglot.pdf

      its in 27 different languages and talks by that shere quality about the
      neglected wealth of small cultures.

      As an answer came the following report from France:

      "We face now to the same problem of destroying of the
      education in France with Sarkosy. He wants to privatise
      everything public, and decided few month ago to suppress
      11 000 jobs in education in 2008, and now 13 500 in 2009.
      Too many teachers they say....His minister of education
      declared in september: we don't need" Bac+5
      (years)"-educated teachers for primary schools, but just
      employees. Another example: He decided last year that that
      CEO of private companies can now be directors of
      universities...

      Sarkosy also started this week to dismantle french public
      research, by dividing the french institute in 9
      independant parts, the first step for destroying public
      research.
      People are incredibely passive. Left party, like socialist
      or communist or greens are most of the time silent on all
      this. They just protest with few energy. Ten or twenty
      years ago, we would have organised a general strike for
      ten times less than this.

      Immigrants hunting and homeless hunting has never been so
      strong in France. Yesterday a NGO for homeless people have
      received the judgement for having occupied one street with
      tents and homeless families inside during few weeks last
      spring: 12 000 euros to pay.
      Everywhere in france, the common sense is destroyed, the
      liberties are destroyed, the Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
      is getting far and far behind us, quasi silently. An
      example of the atmosfear:
      -Some of the 9 activists arrested few days ago for this
      train sabotage, like dangerous terrorists with 400
      policemen attacking their farm were accused of
      "clandestinity", " have something to hide", just because
      they don't want to have cellular phones ( like me...) .

      -Since two weeks, French Gendarmes (policemen) are
      performing raids in colleges, with dogs for searching
      cannabis. They come into classrooms with violence during
      class without warning to the teacher, they ask all the
      children to say immobile, hands on the desk, than they let
      the dogs going alone in the class. When the dog find
      something ( food, most of the time) they ask the children
      to go outside, without teachers permission, they search
      into their clothes. They open the pockets and the trousers
      holes. Children are terrorised....this is new the new
      sarkosy order.

      France is Berlusconised every day, and this passivity is
      so dangerous in my opinion...the crisis is here for
      everyone, and we still live with our belongings and
      savings, but soon, the "garde-manger" will be empty, and
      people will be ready for accepting new official fascism,
      or new war.

      I understand better now the reaction of Italians in the
      world, completely desapointed by Italian politicics and
      disgusted by the reaction fo the people in Italy.

      Italy, France... Europe is getting sick. What country is
      next on the list ?

      All this shows how important is to generate global & local
      alternative autonomous systems, generic infrastructures
      and global political fights.

      JN"

      I wrote in reply:

      I think the letter offers a really good exposition of the tragedy we are
      going through and points to the possible solution. In fact, the social and
      welfare state as we used to know can only be saved on the base of deep
      transformation. That is something, isn't it? not easy to swallow, not easy
      at all to enact. We want something very precius to be preserved, but at
      the same time this will only work if we understand that the collapse of
      the welfare state and the berlusconisation of Europe is the result of an
      inevitable economic process, the result of the self-destructive dynamics
      of the whole monetary-value-competition-market system on which it is based.

      Are there solutions? can we enact an alliance between those who want to
      conserve and those who see and promote radical change?

      I think there is a way. Michel Bouwens of P2P fondation has called it "the
      partner state". He has given some interesting references here:

      http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Category:Policy#Towards_a_Partner_State

      I would be interested in this context to form a community of thinkers who
      are deeply involved in this double development of global structures and
      local autonomy. We have set up the Global Villages Network 11 years ago
      and I recently created a NING so that people could start getting in touch.

      Please those of you who feel called join this community:

      http://globalvillages.ning.com/

      -----

      So I hope to make clear that all these are not competing, but
      complementing efforts. We now have to understand deeper how and where the
      complementing works.

      All the best

      Franz
    • Alex Rollin
      Ning is not Open Source, is an incompatible technology (overall), and insures that each group will have difficulty when they, inevitably, decide to move their
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 29, 2008
        Ning is not Open Source, is an incompatible technology (overall), and insures that each group will have difficulty when they, inevitably, decide to move their site's content later on.

        It is NOT a good idea to start using NING for just any old reason.

        Especially if they you about your content, then you should definitely not do it.  Especially especially if you write a lot of it.  When you transfer the content out og your Ning site, you will likely lose most of your structured information...which is a real shame, since it is what takes the most time to make.  Things like categories, video clips, event date information, and markup.

        Ning is good for groups that have large large followings where you are only interested in getting people to meet each other.

        I built the FactorE site for Marcin.  Check it out.  If you want to use Open Source software, and you want to be part of a larger whole, then I will gladly make a copy of the site for you to use.  It is configrued with Drupal.

        Ning, to its credit, has a very low barrier to entry.  You don't need to do anything but fill out a sign up form.

        If that is all the time you have for your information and your website, then it might be a good fit.

        If you want to get into a custom application, with a big head start based on the what you can see over at http://factorefarm.org , then drop me a line.  I am wondering how many people are interested because I have been delaying writing the materials to help folks with the setup of the sites and what not.

        Sincerely,

        Alex Rollin the technocratic evolutionary purist, 'tech for the people'



        On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada@...> wrote:

        dear all,

        some time ago, with little success, I have set up a NING site for
        strengthening our online community system. NING is a wonderful technical
        solution, and also Andrius has begun to shift much of our work to NING by
        creating a workgroups NING. He asked me to also create a globalvillages
        group there which I finally did.

        http://globalvillages.ning.com - the network page for an emerging
        organisation promoting local autonomy and global networking
        http://worknets.ning.com/group/globalvillages - the group page in
        Worknets, dedicated to the personal contact of independent thinkers in
        Global Villages

        Recently, a few other people followed this example. Les Squires from
        Colorado has successfully started to create NINGs for the transition town
        movement and we started this, based on the help of Sandi Brockway in
        Cambria CA:

        http://transitioneurope.ning.com - its about villages and towns shifting
        from fossil resources to alternatives facing peak oil and the climate
        crisis

        I invited Phil Turner from ECOVAST to transitioneurope because he collects
        valuable resources about renewable energy - and he created this because he
        has another general interest:

        http://ecovastdiscussion.ning.com/ - about the effort to preserve
        villages and small towns as a valid and central pattern of our life.

        Nice structures, but are we going to populate them?

        Yes I think we will, and one of the key issues is that we can allow people
        to work closer together on the base of sharing materials for their very
        partcicular perspective. We can use additional services like slideshare to
        put powerpoints online and so on.

        But we must be clear about purpose and perspective. Each of this networks
        must have different focus, at the same time they all must be communicating
        vessels that strengthen and support each other. In fact, they mutually
        multiply each other if people find the way to their own core motive
        manifested in a social creation.

        Today I was reading another mailing list, bricolab, a group mainly
        focussing on the role of media in local and social development. They had
        several letters from France which were more general in focus, and I
        thought: Yes, this conversation is a wonderful explanation why we need a
        Global Vilages Network.

        So I want to equote these letters and my answer: bugging all of you again
        to subscribe to the Globalvillages and/or NING.

        The conversation is about Italy and France and the drastical political
        changes that affect the core of the European Welfare and Social System.

        somebody linked to a flyer here:
        http://www.radicaleurope.org/texts/nogelmini_polyglot.pdf

        its in 27 different languages and talks by that shere quality about the
        neglected wealth of small cultures.

        As an answer came the following report from France:

        "We face now to the same problem of destroying of the
        education in France with Sarkosy. He wants to privatise
        everything public, and decided few month ago to suppress
        11 000 jobs in education in 2008, and now 13 500 in 2009.
        Too many teachers they say....His minister of education
        declared in september: we don't need" Bac+5
        (years)"-educated teachers for primary schools, but just
        employees. Another example: He decided last year that that
        CEO of private companies can now be directors of
        universities...

        Sarkosy also started this week to dismantle french public
        research, by dividing the french institute in 9
        independant parts, the first step for destroying public
        research.
        People are incredibely passive. Left party, like socialist
        or communist or greens are most of the time silent on all
        this. They just protest with few energy. Ten or twenty
        years ago, we would have organised a general strike for
        ten times less than this.

        Immigrants hunting and homeless hunting has never been so
        strong in France. Yesterday a NGO for homeless people have
        received the judgement for having occupied one street with
        tents and homeless families inside during few weeks last
        spring: 12 000 euros to pay.
        Everywhere in france, the common sense is destroyed, the
        liberties are destroyed, the Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
        is getting far and far behind us, quasi silently. An
        example of the atmosfear:
        -Some of the 9 activists arrested few days ago for this
        train sabotage, like dangerous terrorists with 400
        policemen attacking their farm were accused of
        "clandestinity", " have something to hide", just because
        they don't want to have cellular phones ( like me...) .

        -Since two weeks, French Gendarmes (policemen) are
        performing raids in colleges, with dogs for searching
        cannabis. They come into classrooms with violence during
        class without warning to the teacher, they ask all the
        children to say immobile, hands on the desk, than they let
        the dogs going alone in the class. When the dog find
        something ( food, most of the time) they ask the children
        to go outside, without teachers permission, they search
        into their clothes. They open the pockets and the trousers
        holes. Children are terrorised....this is new the new
        sarkosy order.

        France is Berlusconised every day, and this passivity is
        so dangerous in my opinion...the crisis is here for
        everyone, and we still live with our belongings and
        savings, but soon, the "garde-manger" will be empty, and
        people will be ready for accepting new official fascism,
        or new war.

        I understand better now the reaction of Italians in the
        world, completely desapointed by Italian politicics and
        disgusted by the reaction fo the people in Italy.

        Italy, France... Europe is getting sick. What country is
        next on the list ?

        All this shows how important is to generate global & local
        alternative autonomous systems, generic infrastructures
        and global political fights.

        JN"

        I wrote in reply:

        I think the letter offers a really good exposition of the tragedy we are
        going through and points to the possible solution. In fact, the social and
        welfare state as we used to know can only be saved on the base of deep
        transformation. That is something, isn't it? not easy to swallow, not easy
        at all to enact. We want something very precius to be preserved, but at
        the same time this will only work if we understand that the collapse of
        the welfare state and the berlusconisation of Europe is the result of an
        inevitable economic process, the result of the self-destructive dynamics
        of the whole monetary-value-competition-market system on which it is based.

        Are there solutions? can we enact an alliance between those who want to
        conserve and those who see and promote radical change?

        I think there is a way. Michel Bouwens of P2P fondation has called it "the
        partner state". He has given some interesting references here:

        http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Category:Policy#Towards_a_Partner_State

        I would be interested in this context to form a community of thinkers who
        are deeply involved in this double development of global structures and
        local autonomy. We have set up the Global Villages Network 11 years ago
        and I recently created a NING so that people could start getting in touch.

        Please those of you who feel called join this community:

        http://globalvillages.ning.com/

        -----

        So I hope to make clear that all these are not competing, but
        complementing efforts. We now have to understand deeper how and where the
        complementing works.

        All the best

        Franz




        --
        Alex Rollin
        I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates

      • Franz Nahrada
        Alex, thank you for your concerns. I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 29, 2008
          Alex,

          thank you for your concerns.

          I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
          Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
          great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
          Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
          beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
          http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61

          Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for transitiontowns
          UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started Transition
          Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I have
          a point:

          * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality would take
          a 2 years development cycle.
          * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
          allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
          * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
          business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
          traditional web 2.0 stuff.

          Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed in safe
          places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
          neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I have
          been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
          have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of time, the
          precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
          going and create the network of people and ideas.

          I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
          community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
          factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do that and
          it seems you dont get reliable work for free.

          The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
          stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running sometimes
          in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who maintain
          this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely on a
          corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst case
          here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy whom I
          remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and with him
          died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
          permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
          several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
          practically loosing all the work.

          But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
          difference for all of us.

          Franz
        • Felipe Fonseca
          Hi Franz, Allex (my turn as a lurker here ;)) I tend to agree with Alex... Ning is a pretty unstable and somewhat hard to customize corporate solution. I too
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 29, 2008
            Hi Franz, Allex

            (my turn as a lurker here ;))

            I tend to agree with Alex... Ning is a pretty unstable and somewhat
            hard to customize corporate solution. I too prefer a totally hosted and
            open drupal installation, but there are of course some issues. It requires
            a lot more skill and dedication than the ning solution. The benefits are
            enormous, though, and I do reinforce the idea that owning you online
            infrastructure is totally related to issues as autonomy, control of what
            is made of you content and transparency as to whom (if anyone) you
            sell your visitors' attention (I mean, those google ads in ning...).

            I'm also willing to help with information in case someone would like to
            try it this way...

            Best wishes from cloudy Ubatuba

            efe

            On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 07:46, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin@...> wrote:
            > Ning is not Open Source, is an incompatible technology (overall), and
            > insures that each group will have difficulty when they, inevitably, decide
            > to move their site's content later on.
            >
            > It is NOT a good idea to start using NING for just any old reason.
            >
            > Especially if they you about your content, then you should definitely not do
            > it. Especially especially if you write a lot of it. When you transfer the
            > content out og your Ning site, you will likely lose most of your structured
            > information...which is a real shame, since it is what takes the most time to
            > make. Things like categories, video clips, event date information, and
            > markup.
            >
            > Ning is good for groups that have large large followings where you are only
            > interested in getting people to meet each other.
            >
            > I built the FactorE site for Marcin. Check it out. If you want to use Open
            > Source software, and you want to be part of a larger whole, then I will
            > gladly make a copy of the site for you to use. It is configrued with
            > Drupal.
            >
            > Ning, to its credit, has a very low barrier to entry. You don't need to do
            > anything but fill out a sign up form.
            >
            > If that is all the time you have for your information and your website, then
            > it might be a good fit.
            >
            > If you want to get into a custom application, with a big head start based on
            > the what you can see over at http://factorefarm.org , then drop me a line.
            > I am wondering how many people are interested because I have been delaying
            > writing the materials to help folks with the setup of the sites and what
            > not.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Alex Rollin the technocratic evolutionary purist, 'tech for the people'
            >
            >
            >
            > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> dear all,
            >>
            >> some time ago, with little success, I have set up a NING site for
            >> strengthening our online community system. NING is a wonderful technical
            >> solution, and also Andrius has begun to shift much of our work to NING by
            >> creating a workgroups NING. He asked me to also create a globalvillages
            >> group there which I finally did.
            >>
            >> http://globalvillages.ning.com - the network page for an emerging
            >> organisation promoting local autonomy and global networking
            >> http://worknets.ning.com/group/globalvillages - the group page in
            >> Worknets, dedicated to the personal contact of independent thinkers in
            >> Global Villages
            >>
            >> Recently, a few other people followed this example. Les Squires from
            >> Colorado has successfully started to create NINGs for the transition town
            >> movement and we started this, based on the help of Sandi Brockway in
            >> Cambria CA:
            >>
            >> http://transitioneurope.ning.com - its about villages and towns shifting
            >> from fossil resources to alternatives facing peak oil and the climate
            >> crisis
            >>
            >> I invited Phil Turner from ECOVAST to transitioneurope because he collects
            >> valuable resources about renewable energy - and he created this because he
            >> has another general interest:
            >>
            >> http://ecovastdiscussion.ning.com/ - about the effort to preserve
            >> villages and small towns as a valid and central pattern of our life.
            >>
            >> Nice structures, but are we going to populate them?
            >>
            >> Yes I think we will, and one of the key issues is that we can allow people
            >> to work closer together on the base of sharing materials for their very
            >> partcicular perspective. We can use additional services like slideshare to
            >> put powerpoints online and so on.
            >>
            >> But we must be clear about purpose and perspective. Each of this networks
            >> must have different focus, at the same time they all must be communicating
            >> vessels that strengthen and support each other. In fact, they mutually
            >> multiply each other if people find the way to their own core motive
            >> manifested in a social creation.
            >>
            >> Today I was reading another mailing list, bricolab, a group mainly
            >> focussing on the role of media in local and social development. They had
            >> several letters from France which were more general in focus, and I
            >> thought: Yes, this conversation is a wonderful explanation why we need a
            >> Global Vilages Network.
            >>
            >> So I want to equote these letters and my answer: bugging all of you again
            >> to subscribe to the Globalvillages and/or NING.
            >>
            >> The conversation is about Italy and France and the drastical political
            >> changes that affect the core of the European Welfare and Social System.
            >>
            >> somebody linked to a flyer here:
            >> http://www.radicaleurope.org/texts/nogelmini_polyglot.pdf
            >>
            >> its in 27 different languages and talks by that shere quality about the
            >> neglected wealth of small cultures.
            >>
            >> As an answer came the following report from France:
            >>
            >> "We face now to the same problem of destroying of the
            >> education in France with Sarkosy. He wants to privatise
            >> everything public, and decided few month ago to suppress
            >> 11 000 jobs in education in 2008, and now 13 500 in 2009.
            >> Too many teachers they say....His minister of education
            >> declared in september: we don't need" Bac+5
            >> (years)"-educated teachers for primary schools, but just
            >> employees. Another example: He decided last year that that
            >> CEO of private companies can now be directors of
            >> universities...
            >>
            >> Sarkosy also started this week to dismantle french public
            >> research, by dividing the french institute in 9
            >> independant parts, the first step for destroying public
            >> research.
            >> People are incredibely passive. Left party, like socialist
            >> or communist or greens are most of the time silent on all
            >> this. They just protest with few energy. Ten or twenty
            >> years ago, we would have organised a general strike for
            >> ten times less than this.
            >>
            >> Immigrants hunting and homeless hunting has never been so
            >> strong in France. Yesterday a NGO for homeless people have
            >> received the judgement for having occupied one street with
            >> tents and homeless families inside during few weeks last
            >> spring: 12 000 euros to pay.
            >> Everywhere in france, the common sense is destroyed, the
            >> liberties are destroyed, the Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
            >> is getting far and far behind us, quasi silently. An
            >> example of the atmosfear:
            >> -Some of the 9 activists arrested few days ago for this
            >> train sabotage, like dangerous terrorists with 400
            >> policemen attacking their farm were accused of
            >> "clandestinity", " have something to hide", just because
            >> they don't want to have cellular phones ( like me...) .
            >>
            >> -Since two weeks, French Gendarmes (policemen) are
            >> performing raids in colleges, with dogs for searching
            >> cannabis. They come into classrooms with violence during
            >> class without warning to the teacher, they ask all the
            >> children to say immobile, hands on the desk, than they let
            >> the dogs going alone in the class. When the dog find
            >> something ( food, most of the time) they ask the children
            >> to go outside, without teachers permission, they search
            >> into their clothes. They open the pockets and the trousers
            >> holes. Children are terrorised....this is new the new
            >> sarkosy order.
            >>
            >> France is Berlusconised every day, and this passivity is
            >> so dangerous in my opinion...the crisis is here for
            >> everyone, and we still live with our belongings and
            >> savings, but soon, the "garde-manger" will be empty, and
            >> people will be ready for accepting new official fascism,
            >> or new war.
            >>
            >> I understand better now the reaction of Italians in the
            >> world, completely desapointed by Italian politicics and
            >> disgusted by the reaction fo the people in Italy.
            >>
            >> Italy, France... Europe is getting sick. What country is
            >> next on the list ?
            >>
            >> All this shows how important is to generate global & local
            >> alternative autonomous systems, generic infrastructures
            >> and global political fights.
            >>
            >> JN"
            >>
            >> I wrote in reply:
            >>
            >> I think the letter offers a really good exposition of the tragedy we are
            >> going through and points to the possible solution. In fact, the social and
            >> welfare state as we used to know can only be saved on the base of deep
            >> transformation. That is something, isn't it? not easy to swallow, not easy
            >> at all to enact. We want something very precius to be preserved, but at
            >> the same time this will only work if we understand that the collapse of
            >> the welfare state and the berlusconisation of Europe is the result of an
            >> inevitable economic process, the result of the self-destructive dynamics
            >> of the whole monetary-value-competition-market system on which it is
            >> based.
            >>
            >> Are there solutions? can we enact an alliance between those who want to
            >> conserve and those who see and promote radical change?
            >>
            >> I think there is a way. Michel Bouwens of P2P fondation has called it "the
            >> partner state". He has given some interesting references here:
            >>
            >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Category:Policy#Towards_a_Partner_State
            >>
            >> I would be interested in this context to form a community of thinkers who
            >> are deeply involved in this double development of global structures and
            >> local autonomy. We have set up the Global Villages Network 11 years ago
            >> and I recently created a NING so that people could start getting in touch.
            >>
            >> Please those of you who feel called join this community:
            >>
            >> http://globalvillages.ning.com/
            >>
            >> -----
            >>
            >> So I hope to make clear that all these are not competing, but
            >> complementing efforts. We now have to understand deeper how and where the
            >> complementing works.
            >>
            >> All the best
            >>
            >> Franz
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Alex Rollin
            > I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates
            >
            >



            --
            FelipeFonseca
            ~motw - "o que nos mata é o vqv" ~
            http://weblab.tk
            http://efeefe.no-ip.org
            http://mutirao.metareciclagem.org
          • Alex Rollin
            Franz, Your wish to get things going is a sound one, in general. As soon as you started to talk, though, I found that I needed to come out and state another
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 29, 2008
              Franz,

              Your wish to 'get things going' is a sound one, in general.

              As soon as you started to talk, though, I found that I needed to come out
              and state another reason that I continue to dissuade people from using Ning.

              Ning makes it extraordinarily for others to reuse your work later.

              What is more important to you?

              Getting started quickly?

              Or

              Building something that others can extend so that the work can continue?



              For everyone,


              I have looked through the presentation on the site at open.coop and most of
              it can be built. But very little of it needs to, right now. Trying to use
              software for things that people do well, especially in small communities, is
              a bit like trying getting a bionic arm when you living tissue isn't
              damaged. Getting the bionic arm just means you have less sensitivity in
              your hand.

              That being said, I am offering a COPY of the site at
              http://factorefarm.org If everyone who wishes to invest in the LONG
              term viability of their web
              infrastructure works together, even just a little bit, then each can gain
              new insights into publishing and the knowledge of maintenance 'arts' can be
              distributed and honed.

              Fortunately for us, we have Franz's example to learn from! Learn the
              important stuff and spread it around! Don't rely on single people or single
              entities to take care of mission critical tasks!

              I won't go into the crazy, wild, futuristic amazing things that are
              implicitly possible with the software copy you can have for FREE.

              I won't go into the amazing feeling of working with coordinated publishing
              efforts on multiple continents, and the excitement of learning along with
              others.

              I want to focus on the fact that I want to share this with you, and I want
              to lower the barriers to be competitive with Ning, so that, for those of you
              who really do want to write and publish, so that you have what you need!

              That goes for you too, Franz, Andrius, and Gary. You guys are leaders in
              the sense that you are responsible for the first impressions of many people,
              even though your main job is representing the information of others. Using
              Ning shows a certain lack of investment in critical infrastructure. Not
              only that, but, your information presentations on Minciu are not order in a
              consistant way that others might access.

              Here's the way I think about infrastructure.

              Can you copy it and give away the underlying information used to create it?
              Can you extend it in many ways without major compromise to the integrity of
              the core innovation?
              If someone wanted a copy of what you have, your 'thing,' and you had never
              done it before, would you be proud of your core simplicity in sharing?
              When someone shares their innovation on the core with you, can you make use
              of it because of a shared platform?

              The tools of the network trade are information and exposure. Most of us
              deal with this in some way shape or form, and it is now possible to, without
              financial cost, to learn or aqcuire the capability to express resilience in
              this area.

              There are no excuses for using Ning or other proprietary platforms
              (including Yahoo groups!) for information management now.

              So, in a world where that is true, you just have to state your case, and
              help will appear.

              Who are you?

              What are you trying to do?

              What barriers are you running into?

              What do you need?

              How can we help?

              Alex






              On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada@...> wrote:

              > Alex,
              >
              > thank you for your concerns.
              >
              > I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
              > Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
              > great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
              > Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
              > beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
              > http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61
              >
              > Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for transitiontowns
              > UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started Transition
              > Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I have
              > a point:
              >
              > * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality would take
              > a 2 years development cycle.
              > * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
              > allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
              > * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
              > business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
              > traditional web 2.0 stuff.
              >
              > Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed in safe
              > places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
              > neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I have
              > been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
              > have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of time, the
              > precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
              > going and create the network of people and ideas.
              >
              > I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
              > community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
              > factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do that and
              > it seems you dont get reliable work for free.
              >
              > The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
              > stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running sometimes
              > in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who maintain
              > this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely on a
              > corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst case
              > here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy whom I
              > remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and with him
              > died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
              > permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
              > several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
              > practically loosing all the work.
              >
              > But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
              > difference for all of us.
              >
              > Franz
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Alex Rollin
              I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates
            • Alex Rollin
              Is there some reason you have held my mail? A ... -- Alex Rollin I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 30, 2008
                Is there some reason you have held my mail?

                A

                On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin@...> wrote:
                Franz,

                Your wish to 'get things going' is a sound one, in general.

                As soon as you started to talk, though, I found that I needed to come out and state another reason that I continue to dissuade people from using Ning.

                Ning makes it extraordinarily for others to reuse your work later.

                What is more important to you?

                Getting started quickly?

                Or

                Building something that others can extend so that the work can continue?

                For everyone,


                I have looked through the presentation on the site at open.coop and most of it can be built.  But very little of it needs to, right now.  Trying to use software for things that people do well, especially in small communities, is a bit like trying getting a bionic arm when you living tissue isn't damaged.  Getting the bionic arm just means you have less sensitivity in your hand.

                That being said, I am offering a COPY of the site at http://factorefarm.org .  If everyone who wishes to invest in the LONG term viability of their web infrastructure works together, even just a little bit, then each can gain new insights into publishing and the knowledge of maintenance 'arts' can be distributed and honed. 

                Fortunately for us, we have Franz's example to learn from!  Learn the important stuff and spread it around!  Don't rely on single people or single entities to take care of mission critical tasks!

                I won't go into the crazy, wild, futuristic amazing things that are implicitly possible with the software copy you can have for FREE. 

                I won't go into the amazing feeling of working with coordinated publishing efforts on multiple continents, and the excitement of learning along with others.

                I want to focus on the fact that I want to share this with you, and I want to lower the barriers to be competitive with Ning, so that, for those of you who really do want to write and publish, so that you have what you need!

                That goes for you too, Franz, Andrius, and Gary.  You guys are leaders in the sens ethat you are responsible for the first impressions of many people, even though your main job is representing the information of others.  Using Ning shows a certain lack of investment in critical infrastructure.  Not only that, but, your information presentations on Minciu are not order in a consistant way that others might access.

                Here's the way I think about infrastructure.

                Can you copy it and give away the underlying information used to create it?
                Can you extend it in many ways without major compromise to the integrity of the core innovation?
                If someone wanted a copy of what you have, your 'thing,' and you had never done it before, would you be proud of your core simplicity in sharing?
                When someone shares their innovation on the core with you, can you make use of it because of a shared platform?

                The tools of the network trade are information and exposure.  Most of us deal with this in some way shape or form, and it is now possible to, without financial cost, to learn or aqcuire the capability to express resilience in this area.

                There are no excuses for using Ning or other proprietary platforms (including Yahoo groups!) for information management now.

                So, in a world where that is true, you just have to state your case, and help will appear.

                Who are you?
                What are you trying to do?
                What barriers are you running into?
                What do you need?
                How can we help?

                Alex







                On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada@...> wrote:

                Alex,

                thank you for your concerns.

                I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
                Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
                great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
                Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
                beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
                http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61

                Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for transitiontowns
                UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started Transition
                Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I have
                a point:

                * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality would take
                a 2 years development cycle.
                * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
                allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
                * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
                business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
                traditional web 2.0 stuff.

                Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed in safe
                places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
                neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I have
                been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
                have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of time, the
                precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
                going and create the network of people and ideas.

                I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
                community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
                factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do that and
                it seems you dont get reliable work for free.

                The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
                stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running sometimes
                in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who maintain
                this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely on a
                corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst case
                here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy whom I
                remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and with him
                died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
                permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
                several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
                practically loosing all the work.

                But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
                difference for all of us.

                Franz




                --
                Alex Rollin
                I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates




                --
                Alex Rollin
                I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates

              • Marcin Jakubowski
                Alex, Can you show a sample implementation of what a Social Network - the same function that Ning presently assumes - would look like on the Drupal platform?
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 30, 2008
                  Alex,

                  Can you show a sample implementation of what a Social Network - the same function that Ning presently assumes - would look like on the Drupal platform?

                  Can you produce an easy to use replica of Ning, where barriers to entry are comparably low?

                  If we can have a good Drupal resource like this, with an attractive skin like Ning, then this could indeed become more attractive than Ning - not only for hard-core open source followers, but also for average people.

                  Thus, show us a replicable product that requires little investment on that part of the Social Network organizer. If this is currently not possible, then it is definitely worth investing in making it possible.

                  Marcin



                  On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin@...> wrote:

                  Franz,

                  Your wish to 'get things going' is a sound one, in general.

                  As soon as you started to talk, though, I found that I needed to come out
                  and state another reason that I continue to dissuade people from using Ning.

                  Ning makes it extraordinarily for others to reuse your work later.

                  What is more important to you?

                  Getting started quickly?

                  Or

                  Building something that others can extend so that the work can continue?

                  For everyone,

                  I have looked through the presentation on the site at open.coop and most of
                  it can be built. But very little of it needs to, right now. Trying to use
                  software for things that people do well, especially in small communities, is
                  a bit like trying getting a bionic arm when you living tissue isn't
                  damaged. Getting the bionic arm just means you have less sensitivity in
                  your hand.

                  That being said, I am offering a COPY of the site at
                  http://factorefarm.org. If everyone who wishes to invest in the LONG
                  term viability of their web
                  infrastructure works together, even just a little bit, then each can gain
                  new insights into publishing and the knowledge of maintenance 'arts' can be
                  distributed and honed.

                  Fortunately for us, we have Franz's example to learn from! Learn the
                  important stuff and spread it around! Don't rely on single people or single
                  entities to take care of mission critical tasks!

                  I won't go into the crazy, wild, futuristic amazing things that are
                  implicitly possible with the software copy you can have for FREE.

                  I won't go into the amazing feeling of working with coordinated publishing
                  efforts on multiple continents, and the excitement of learning along with
                  others.

                  I want to focus on the fact that I want to share this with you, and I want
                  to lower the barriers to be competitive with Ning, so that, for those of you
                  who really do want to write and publish, so that you have what you need!

                  That goes for you too, Franz, Andrius, and Gary. You guys are leaders in
                  the sense that you are responsible for the first impressions of many people,
                  even though your main job is representing the information of others. Using
                  Ning shows a certain lack of investment in critical infrastructure. Not
                  only that, but, your information presentations on Minciu are not order in a
                  consistant way that others might access.

                  Here's the way I think about infrastructure.

                  Can you copy it and give away the underlying information used to create it?
                  Can you extend it in many ways without major compromise to the integrity of
                  the core innovation?
                  If someone wanted a copy of what you have, your 'thing,' and you had never
                  done it before, would you be proud of your core simplicity in sharing?
                  When someone shares their innovation on the core with you, can you make use
                  of it because of a shared platform?

                  The tools of the network trade are information and exposure. Most of us
                  deal with this in some way shape or form, and it is now possible to, without
                  financial cost, to learn or aqcuire the capability to express resilience in
                  this area.

                  There are no excuses for using Ning or other proprietary platforms
                  (including Yahoo groups!) for information management now.

                  So, in a world where that is true, you just have to state your case, and
                  help will appear.

                  Who are you?

                  What are you trying to do?

                  What barriers are you running into?

                  What do you need?

                  How can we help?

                  Alex



                  On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada@...> wrote:

                  > Alex,
                  >
                  > thank you for your concerns.
                  >
                  > I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
                  > Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
                  > great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
                  > Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
                  > beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
                  > http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61
                  >
                  > Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for transitiontowns
                  > UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started Transition
                  > Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I have
                  > a point:
                  >
                  > * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality would take
                  > a 2 years development cycle.
                  > * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
                  > allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
                  > * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
                  > business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
                  > traditional web 2.0 stuff.
                  >
                  > Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed in safe
                  > places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
                  > neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I have
                  > been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
                  > have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of time, the
                  > precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
                  > going and create the network of people and ideas.
                  >
                  > I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
                  > community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
                  > factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do that and
                  > it seems you dont get reliable work for free.
                  >
                  > The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
                  > stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running sometimes
                  > in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who maintain
                  > this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely on a
                  > corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst case
                  > here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy whom I
                  > remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and with him
                  > died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
                  > permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
                  > several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
                  > practically loosing all the work.
                  >
                  > But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
                  > difference for all of us.
                  >
                  > Franz
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Alex Rollin
                  I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates




                  --
                  ----
                  A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

                  -- Robert A. Heinlein
                • Alex Rollin
                  A single free module handles the social features in Drupal to the extent that NING offers them. Piece of cake! http://spin.com is built with Drupal, and users
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 30, 2008
                    A single free module handles the social features in Drupal to the extent that NING offers them.

                    Piece of cake!

                    http://spin.com is built with Drupal, and users a similar feature allowing people to be 'freinds.'

                    That being said, it takes about 3 minutes to add this feature to the base project that was setup for Factor E Farm at http://factorefarm.org

                    Drupal isn't a good fit for everyone, I admit that wholeheartedly.  If you care about your content though, and you are planning on creating quite a bit, then it is a potential solution worth looking at.

                    A

                    On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Marcin Jakubowski <joseph.dolittle@...> wrote:

                    Alex,

                    Can you show a sample implementation of what a Social Network - the same function that Ning presently assumes - would look like on the Drupal platform?

                    Can you produce an easy to use replica of Ning, where barriers to entry are comparably low?

                    If we can have a good Drupal resource like this, with an attractive skin like Ning, then this could indeed become more attractive than Ning - not only for hard-core open source followers, but also for average people.

                    Thus, show us a replicable product that requires little investment on that part of the Social Network organizer. If this is currently not possible, then it is definitely worth investing in making it possible.

                    Marcin



                    On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin@...> wrote:

                    Franz,

                    Your wish to 'get things going' is a sound one, in general.

                    As soon as you started to talk, though, I found that I needed to come out
                    and state another reason that I continue to dissuade people from using Ning.

                    Ning makes it extraordinarily for others to reuse your work later.

                    What is more important to you?

                    Getting started quickly?

                    Or

                    Building something that others can extend so that the work can continue?

                    For everyone,

                    I have looked through the presentation on the site at open.coop and most of
                    it can be built. But very little of it needs to, right now. Trying to use
                    software for things that people do well, especially in small communities, is
                    a bit like trying getting a bionic arm when you living tissue isn't
                    damaged. Getting the bionic arm just means you have less sensitivity in
                    your hand.

                    That being said, I am offering a COPY of the site at
                    http://factorefarm.org. If everyone who wishes to invest in the LONG
                    term viability of their web
                    infrastructure works together, even just a little bit, then each can gain
                    new insights into publishing and the knowledge of maintenance 'arts' can be
                    distributed and honed.

                    Fortunately for us, we have Franz's example to learn from! Learn the
                    important stuff and spread it around! Don't rely on single people or single
                    entities to take care of mission critical tasks!

                    I won't go into the crazy, wild, futuristic amazing things that are
                    implicitly possible with the software copy you can have for FREE.

                    I won't go into the amazing feeling of working with coordinated publishing
                    efforts on multiple continents, and the excitement of learning along with
                    others.

                    I want to focus on the fact that I want to share this with you, and I want
                    to lower the barriers to be competitive with Ning, so that, for those of you
                    who really do want to write and publish, so that you have what you need!

                    That goes for you too, Franz, Andrius, and Gary. You guys are leaders in
                    the sense that you are responsible for the first impressions of many people,

                    even though your main job is representing the information of others. Using
                    Ning shows a certain lack of investment in critical infrastructure. Not
                    only that, but, your information presentations on Minciu are not order in a
                    consistant way that others might access.

                    Here's the way I think about infrastructure.

                    Can you copy it and give away the underlying information used to create it?
                    Can you extend it in many ways without major compromise to the integrity of
                    the core innovation?
                    If someone wanted a copy of what you have, your 'thing,' and you had never
                    done it before, would you be proud of your core simplicity in sharing?
                    When someone shares their innovation on the core with you, can you make use
                    of it because of a shared platform?

                    The tools of the network trade are information and exposure. Most of us
                    deal with this in some way shape or form, and it is now possible to, without
                    financial cost, to learn or aqcuire the capability to express resilience in
                    this area.

                    There are no excuses for using Ning or other proprietary platforms
                    (including Yahoo groups!) for information management now.

                    So, in a world where that is true, you just have to state your case, and
                    help will appear.

                    Who are you?

                    What are you trying to do?

                    What barriers are you running into?

                    What do you need?

                    How can we help?

                    Alex


                    On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada@...> wrote:

                    > Alex,
                    >
                    > thank you for your concerns.
                    >
                    > I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
                    > Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
                    > great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
                    > Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
                    > beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
                    > http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61
                    >
                    > Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for transitiontowns
                    > UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started Transition
                    > Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I have
                    > a point:
                    >
                    > * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality would take
                    > a 2 years development cycle.
                    > * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
                    > allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
                    > * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
                    > business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
                    > traditional web 2.0 stuff.
                    >
                    > Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed in safe
                    > places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
                    > neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I have
                    > been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
                    > have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of time, the
                    > precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
                    > going and create the network of people and ideas.
                    >
                    > I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
                    > community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
                    > factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do that and
                    > it seems you dont get reliable work for free.
                    >
                    > The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
                    > stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running sometimes
                    > in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who maintain
                    > this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely on a
                    > corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst case
                    > here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy whom I
                    > remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and with him
                    > died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
                    > permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
                    > several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
                    > practically loosing all the work.
                    >
                    > But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
                    > difference for all of us.
                    >
                    > Franz
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Alex Rollin
                    I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates




                    --
                    ----
                    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

                    -- Robert A. Heinlein



                    --
                    Alex Rollin
                    I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates

                  • Sasha
                    Hi Franz and all, This is quite important issue and both sides have good points. May I add that there are open source solutions for social networks? There is
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
                      Hi Franz and all,
                      This is quite important issue and both sides have good points. May I
                      add that there are open source solutions for social networks?
                      There is http://news.elgg.org/ for example. I don't know much about it
                      but is a readily available and probably user friendly solution.

                      Sasha

                      --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, "Franz Nahrada" <f.nahrada@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Alex,
                      >
                      > thank you for your concerns.
                      >
                      > I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
                      > Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
                      > great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
                      > Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
                      > beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
                      > http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61
                      >
                      > Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for
                      transitiontowns
                      > UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started
                      Transition
                      > Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I
                      have
                      > a point:
                      >
                      > * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality
                      would take
                      > a 2 years development cycle.
                      > * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
                      > allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
                      > * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
                      > business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
                      > traditional web 2.0 stuff.
                      >
                      > Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed
                      in safe
                      > places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
                      > neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I
                      have
                      > been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
                      > have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of
                      time, the
                      > precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
                      > going and create the network of people and ideas.
                      >
                      > I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
                      > community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
                      > factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do
                      that and
                      > it seems you dont get reliable work for free.
                      >
                      > The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
                      > stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running
                      sometimes
                      > in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who
                      maintain
                      > this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely
                      on a
                      > corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst
                      case
                      > here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy
                      whom I
                      > remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and
                      with him
                      > died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
                      > permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
                      > several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
                      > practically loosing all the work.
                      >
                      > But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
                      > difference for all of us.
                      >
                      > Franz
                      >
                    • Haas Bernhard, (RU2)
                      Dear all, I read some of the discussions about the IT background to support visionary ideas like globalvillages. As I understood (sorry for my poor english),
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
                        Dear all,

                        I read some of the discussions about the IT background to support visionary ideas like globalvillages. As I understood (sorry for my poor english), there are two different points of views:
                        Ning: low technical level, but (perhaps) troubles to move then to other programs; good for beginners
                        Drupal and others: open source, not so easy to get aquainted to it, in the long run more efficient

                        My opinion: For me, these technical solutions are the BACKGROUND to get things done together - not the really important thing. It should be as easy as much as possible, to get more people involved. And then after some time, we should change to a solution for a longer term.
                        If we can't transfer easy from NING to other solutions ist okay for me, because in some years, 90% of the information is irrelevant to the situation then, new "products" are available, but we have set up some hundreds of people working with us - and most of them will be no computer technicians, like me and 99% of all the persons who get things done aren't it either.

                        I am sure, we will find the best solution for our situation now,
                        Best rgards,
                        Bernhard

                        Personal background:
                        Since four years I am head of village regeneration in Lower Austria. My 7 collegues and myself are supporting about 30 professional moderators for local concerns and we are subsidying about 300 - 350 local projects per year in 200 villages. 40.000 local people are gathered in 700 local associations for village regeneration and doing more than 400.000 hours work - per year and for free.

                        Village Renewal in Lower Austria
                        Importance of the programme
                        Village Renewal is a big issue in the policy of the province of Lower Austria, one of the nine Federal Provinces of the Federal Republic of Austria, although the amount of money granted by the government is rather modest (annual costs: about 3,2 Million Euros).
                        The Governor of Lower Austria, Dr. Erwin Pröll, has started the programme and promotes it strongly.


                        Some facts
                        The main direction of Village Renewal in Lower Austria is to strengthen local communities. The participation of many members of the communities in the planning process as well as in the steps of putting the plans into practice brings a high standard of quality of the projects accompanied by a high grade of acceptance.

                        Our model of direct participation of every person interested in the shape of her direct living space has been realized in about 700 villages with inhabitants between 100 and 5.000. For bigger places we have the action of Town Renewal.

                        Principles for Village Renewal
                        The guidelines set out the following principles for village renewal:

                        * The village and the rural area should maintain and strengthen their cultural distinctiveness from urban areas, thus preserving a healthy tension.
                        * In rural areas the regional economic circulation should be reinforced by the development of regional acticities making use of regional strengths, and a high degree of self-sufficiency should be achieved in economic, social and cultural terms.
                        * The independence of the villages should be reinforced by the development and promotion of individual responsibility and self- aid among the population.


                        Areas of Activities
                        Defined areas of activity are:
                        * improvement of the village structure and design
                        * renovation of buildings
                        * utilization of local energy resources (energy plan)
                        * assuring and improving the ecology
                        * socio-cultural renewal
                        * improvement of the structure of agricultural undertakings
                        * assuring a reasonable standard of living


                        How the programme is working
                        The province of Lower Austria bears most of the costs of the assistance to the villages made by the professional motivators and moderators of the process.
                        The provincial government also pays subsidies for local projects depending on the size of the project with costs between a few hundred Euros and about 15.000 Euros. In no case the subsidy can be higher than half of the total costs. Normally the subsidy is much less than 50 %.

                        The professional moderators need a high social and communicative competence which provides optimal support for the working together of all interest groups in the planning and decision process.



                        -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                        Von: globalvillages@yahoogroups.com [mailto:globalvillages@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Franz Nahrada
                        Gesendet: Samstag, 29. November 2008 12:03
                        An: globalvillages@yahoogroups.com
                        Betreff: Re: [globalvillages] NING and the purpose of a Global Villages Network


                        Alex,

                        thank you for your concerns.

                        I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a beautifuly crafted comic caroon here: http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61

                        Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for transitiontowns UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started Transition Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I have a point:

                        * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality would take a 2 years development cycle.
                        * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier, allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
                        * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the traditional web 2.0 stuff.

                        Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed in safe places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I have been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of time, the precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things going and create the network of people and ideas.

                        I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do that and it seems you dont get reliable work for free.

                        The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running sometimes in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who maintain this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely on a corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst case here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy whom I remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and with him died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was practically loosing all the work.

                        But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of difference for all of us.

                        Franz




                        ------------------------------------

                        Each letter sent to globalvillages@yahoogroups.com enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.orgYahoo! Groups Links
                      • Marcin Jakubowski
                        I agree with not putting so much emphasis on the platform at this point, from the standpoint of portability - for the followingory reason. TRUE portability is
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
                          I agree with not putting so much emphasis on the platform at this
                          point, from the standpoint of portability - for the followingory
                          reason.

                          TRUE portability is the TRANSLATION of information content to PHYSICAL
                          REALITY. The physical reality is the best repository/database of
                          information discussed, and it can be documented readily with video. It
                          is not easy to delete it, either.

                          Thus, any information that doesn't reach the stage of REALITY
                          CREATION, is, in my opinion, not worth recording anyway.

                          My two cents,

                          Marcin


                          On 12/1/08, Sasha <mrkflux@...> wrote:
                          > Hi Franz and all,
                          > This is quite important issue and both sides have good points. May I
                          > add that there are open source solutions for social networks?
                          > There is http://news.elgg.org/ for example. I don't know much about it
                          > but is a readily available and probably user friendly solution.
                          >
                          > Sasha
                          >
                          > --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, "Franz Nahrada" <f.nahrada@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Alex,
                          >>
                          >> thank you for your concerns.
                          >>
                          >> I recently had a talk with Gary Alexander, whom I met personally in
                          >> Cambridge 2003 and who is one of the finest networkers I know of. His
                          >> great fascinating vision of a Social Network (PlaNet) that supports
                          >> Global Villages in their trade and development can be read in form of a
                          >> beautifuly crafted comic caroon here:
                          >> http://open.coop/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=61
                          >>
                          >> Gary is in touch with the people that try to do a site for
                          > transitiontowns
                          >> UK (Ben Brangwyn) and inevitably we had a clash when I started
                          > Transition
                          >> Europe on NING. But in the course of our discussions Gary saw that I
                          > have
                          >> a point:
                          >>
                          >> * NING is available right now whereas the planned functionality
                          > would take
                          >> a 2 years development cycle.
                          >> * NING delivers easy to use functionality and has a low entry - barrier,
                          >> allowing non-techies to set up groups, blogs etc. (you admit that)
                          >> * NING although commercial does the right thing - its totally in the
                          >> business of supporting communities and it does this much better than the
                          >> traditional web 2.0 stuff.
                          >>
                          >> Most content like events is trajectory. Content can also be placed
                          > in safe
                          >> places - but where is a really safe place? Most people dont own a server
                          >> neither they have the time to do maintainance and technical setup. I
                          > have
                          >> been following Drupal projects and setups and I simply dont even want to
                          >> have the headache of passive understanding. It requires a lot of
                          > time, the
                          >> precious resource that we dont have. As you can see I like to get things
                          >> going and create the network of people and ideas.
                          >>
                          >> I agree that there is a pressing need that in the long run we need a
                          >> community led infrastructure, like Marcin is calling for community led
                          >> factories. We have to admit that currently we are too weak to do
                          > that and
                          >> it seems you dont get reliable work for free.
                          >>
                          >> The Good thing is that you can link to a wiki in NING and run the best
                          >> stuff there as an achive and manual. But even here I am running
                          > sometimes
                          >> in the difficulty of having arguments and issues with people who
                          > maintain
                          >> this. That is still another question. Its very sad but I rather rely
                          > on a
                          >> corporation like NING than on one single technical person. The worst
                          > case
                          >> here in Austria was Wolf Steinhauer (Earthway) He was a lovely guy
                          > whom I
                          >> remember with very special feelings - but he died misearably and
                          > with him
                          >> died a lot of online endavours, scrambled, dead - lots of the Austrian
                          >> permaculture and communities stuff, unreconstructeable treasures. I had
                          >> several people to work with the GIVE site - when they left I was
                          >> practically loosing all the work.
                          >>
                          >> But thank you for the good work you do for Marcin. It has made a lot of
                          >> difference for all of us.
                          >>
                          >> Franz
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          ----
                          A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
                          butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
                          accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
                          give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
                          problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
                          efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

                          -- Robert A. Heinlein
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