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Re: [globalvillages] for Marcin: a system for self-learning

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  • marcin@steaky.org
    Andrius, Ok, this sounds more concrete. What format were you considering? Can CMapTools be utilized? What about FreeMind? What about any other neural network?
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 20, 2004
      Andrius,

      Ok, this sounds more concrete. What format were you considering? Can
      CMapTools be utilized? What about FreeMind? What about any other neural
      network? I think Ron Stockinger is key in helping us define the
      appropriate tools. At least internally at OSE, i'm interested in defining
      the state of the art in software tools that can be utilized.

      Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the knowledge
      necessary to become a productive member of society. The key assumption
      that i hold here still is based on Maslow's pyramid. Physical needs are
      first, because they influence psychological needs. I don't believe we can
      have a healthy society as long as our physical environment
      (infrastructures, goods and services) is unhealthy. We apparently disagree
      on this point, but one realm of personal growth for me involves the clear
      communication of my 'assumption' that physical needs are first. Physical
      needs means the products of human production infrastructures (production
      of products, ideas, education, infrastructures...). To me, discontinuing
      the thorough addiction to 'making a living' in society is key. When i say
      physical needs are first, i am referring to the infrastructure in society
      which makes many people unhappy in the process of providing human needs.
      The means of production and our physical environment have a profound
      effect on human psychology. We can't be making people feel truly good by
      psychology alone, unless people are spiritual masters. Since there is only
      a small number of 'spiritual masters,' it is better to focus on the whole
      process of manufacturing the physical human environment, since this is
      more tangible, and in my view, easier. Approaching the problem from
      psychology is, to me, like building a house without a foundation. And
      here's the key: if you want to affect people psychologically, you must
      affect their physical experience. In this way, i agree with you, that a
      better society lies in changing the minds of humans. I think that the
      peoples' minds can be changed by changing their physical environment: the
      products they use, the streets they live on, the way they make their
      livelihood. This is why i approach creating a better society from the
      point of the means of production. And means of production includes
      technology, law, finance, organizational issues. I must admit, i find
      efforts that are not based on improving the provision of goods and
      services in some way as not 'getting it.' Pardon my humility level.

      Here i don't mean that everyone becomes an ethical entrepreneur. That's
      the job of, say 1 or so percent of society. Here are my assumptions on how
      the world works: about 1% or so of the population rules the world. That is
      called international finance capital. It includes, for example, the
      adventures of Columbus, and today, the adventures of Goldman Sachs. Next:
      a few percent of the world's population generates the local
      infrastructures: cities, their roads, new housing developments, so forth.
      Still big money, but not as large as the virtual, global finance capital,
      and larger than what the middle class has at its disposition. Next, the
      third class of agents that affect how the world looks are ethical
      entrepreneurs. These are the people who participate in networking,
      organizational, and political life. These are the people that OSE is
      interested in generating. These individuals migrate into the upper two
      classes: the global and local finance capital. The vast majority, 90-95%
      are not involved in any significant way in affecting how the world in the
      future. That is, most people lead 'normal lives,' and have no interest in
      a post-autistic economy.

      In any case, the case for open knowhow is key. Our institutions don't
      train us to become entrepreneurs, but to become part of the industrial
      machine and its support functions. Thus, i see the need for training the
      ethical entrepreneurs to provide options of meeting human needs consistent
      with our deepest and truest needs. For example, we do not need more food
      in the USA. We need real food, quality food, with a corresponding
      infrastructure that nourishes the human spirit at all steps. We do not
      have that yet. I am interested in creating this nourishing infrastructure
      in the food, housing, and other sectors. That vision requires hard
      technical expertise.

      In sum, we need: (1) the ability to collect the information- i see here
      the need to implement a collaboration platform. I see a masterminded
      skeleton, with content filled in an open source way by numerous
      contribution. The main challenge here is to establish the legitimacy of
      such a project to foster wide input. What are your ideas on that? (2) The
      ability to implement the information. We are in the process of acquiring
      50 acres for a full research campus with experimental labs, agriculture
      operations, building demonstrators, so forth. This is the physical plant
      where we can build and test ideas. Moreover, for business models, legal,
      and financial knowhow, we are generating students who are demonstrating
      their abilities by taking concrete steps towards startup of ethical
      enterprise as a requirement for graduation. (3) The ability to organize
      the information. What tools can we use here? Overall, the goal is having
      state of the art procedural and technical information access at one's
      fingertips. Things like: how do i structure my corporation legally to
      handle donations for placing landholdings for the benefit of the public;
      where do i get my seeds? How do i design a closed loop water system for my
      house? Where are the manufacturing blueprints for a wind generator? So
      this includes open source technology, items such as open source
      photovoltaics production, and others.

      Key here is information access: indexical environments, visual
      representation, databasing, expert systems, multimedia generation, etc. I
      see a CMapTools map with links to multimedia on hammering a nail into a
      wall; a website that shows the economic analysis of a housing development;
      name of key person who can help and is most committed to the open-sourcing
      of information; distilled instructions on the steps required to set up a
      telco in Crete; etc. I see some tool like TheBrain, and some features of
      FreeMind.

      On the technical support front, the clear definition of tools to be used
      is important for replicability. That is: what are the tools, how do we
      acquire them and install them, and how do we learn them. This should all
      be at our fingertips. Of course, this changes dynamically, but so far i
      have not seen a one-stop-shop for gaining distilled perspective, or
      expertism, without having to 'jump through hoops' of various professional
      schools or programs. We have a chance to change this, by collecting and
      distilling.

      Here are my thoughts: i have a hard time seeing a distributed effort
      succeeding in this. Missing is focus, because unless people can contribute
      their full attention, all other activities will interfere. That's why
      funding must come through the activity itself. That's the reason why i
      promote work on 'the means of production of goods and services.' As we
      learn, we are also producers; productive acticity has income. This is my
      bootstrapping finance model. For example, by open-sourcing our farm
      project, we are also getting paid by products we grow, as part of an
      integrated social marketing package that is also used to dedicate the
      funds to purchase local lands.

      My way to generate the focus is to have bootstrapping financing, augmented
      by many donations. Thus, it is full time work, where people communicate
      directly with one another. The distillation process can then take shape. I
      see a team of 100 people on-site by year end 2006 at OSE. This way we are
      generating significant local improvement: lands acquired for permanent
      sound use, millions of dollars in goods and corresponding healthy
      livelihoods generated, etc. These are measurable.

      So how do we continue?

      Marcin

      On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, minciusodas wrote:

      > Hi Marcin,
      >
      > I am catching up with your letter. Thank you!
      > Here is a "distillation" of your key needs as I understand them.
      >
      > You want to: create beautiful livelihoods
      > By means of: open access to knowledge
      > In particular, expressed as: an expert system to lead the user
      > through the design of a house
      > For which you need to: Mastermind the collection of the information
      > into integrated business models.
      >
      > I would approach this so that it radiates from a human perspective.
      > I would start with the human concerns, working from the wider issues
      > to the narrower issues. This is an organizing principle that will
      > allow for the evolution of our knowledge. We could create:
      >
      > - A glossary of key concepts. For you they might include "beautiful
      > livelihood", "open access", "sustainability", "affordability", etc.
      > You would define your key concepts in words and with examples or
      > illustrations, continuously refining or expanding so they are very
      > well grounded and we can understand you. Others might restate these
      > concepts in their own words. But you would be the reference point
      > for the key concepts most important for you, just as Joy Tang might
      > define "AIDS economy" or Franz Nahrada might define "global
      > villages". This is not so much about the actual words, but about the
      > concepts that certain individuals are anchoring with them.
      >
      > - An unfolding tree of ideas. Your outline contains many ideas about
      > life, many assumptions - for example, that houses are best designed
      > using principles from the natural world, that we should avoid debt,
      > or that we should be financially literate. It is important to make
      > these assumptions explicit, and to clarify them. As part of that, I
      > think it is very helpful to show which assumptions are core, and
      > which are derivative. How does one assumption derive from another?
      > This prioritization will make it much easier to critique, verify,
      > correct and apply your principles. I think it is also the basis for
      > an expert system that would guide through decision making or learning
      > processes. For example, why should a person build a new home if they
      > haven't understood why they need one? or what are valid reasons for
      > having a home, old or new? For example, the goals of Open Source
      > Ecology might be better met perhaps if people realized that they can
      > live quite happily in smaller homes, or with other people.
      >
      > - A documentation of subjective contexts (often as stories, but
      > including relevant data, such as financial or physical) that are the
      > grounding for your assumptions. Other people may also share their
      > stories. Because generally we do not "prove" our assertions but
      > instead we simply have "testimony" from people that they find it to
      > be so. (This is often what we mean by "wisdom"). This is why I
      > speak of assumptions, because they are oriented to serve and direct
      > our subjective outlook, and so they are and should be vulnerable to
      > correction at any time. Often this is a matter of new understanding,
      > perhaps more mature, perhaps mistaken, perhaps a reinterpretation.
      >
      > - The ability to generate maps of agreement or disagreement by
      > participants with regard to the assumptions. People are able to work
      > together even when they do not agree on every point. It helps for
      > them to recognize where their assumptions match, and where not. And
      > how do they phrase them with regard to the key concepts.
      >
      > - Often these assumptions may be detailed to show that they
      > are "rules of thumb" that mediate a recurrent activity and an
      > associated structure that is evoked, sustained, imposed. We may
      > speak of these as "patterns" in the sense of Christopher Alexander,
      > and relate them in a "pattern language".
      >
      > - At this point we can have a program of self-learning which I
      > imagine is a branching out (and looping back) of questions that
      > people should explore (sooner or later) if they care about a
      > subject. And it would provide means to explore the questions,
      > including the study of classic texts, visits to relevant sites,
      > discussion with experts, collection of data, personal investigations
      > or exercises, etc. There should also be a way to document one's
      > learning and contribute one's findings.
      >
      > This may sound quite abstract. But personally I think by treating
      > our questions as primarily of subjective importance, it deals with
      > the most personal and important ones first. And it quickly branches
      > out to the "practical" issues like "I need to learn how to hammer"
      > or "How can I get lumber?" but also "Maybe I should live with my
      > grandparents instead" or "I should really move to France" or "This is
      > the part with which my wife does not agree".
      >
      > I think with such a system we can be well grounded so that we can
      > with sufficient confidence encourage new participants, and they can
      > quickly find themselves. We may think of this system as a way for
      > people to "know themselves" as straightforwardly as possible. This
      > is perhaps the greatest purpose of "open source" and the hurdle that
      > it overcomes.
      >
      > - It is then straightforward for students to develop business plans
      > that they can test to consider if they make sense for themselves, and
      > to what extent they might make sense for others. These would
      > actually be more like "life plans" rather than business plans. So we
      > would develop tools for them to express their life plans as
      > calculations in the context of the tree of assumptions that they have
      > personally explored and tested.
      >
      > - We will also have connection with a WOW system that would help one
      > find the websites that are useful in exploring these questions, and
      > an online networking system for engaging the needed resources.
      >
      > Marcin, would such a system satisfy your needs? What more should be
      > added? Or how would you shape this? I think this as roughly fitting
      > in with the "pattern repository" parts of our web system for working
      > openly, and I will try to redraw that.
      >
      > I think this system will be personally rewarding for participants and
      > will also help them practically achieve what they desire.
      >
      > Andrius
      >
      > Andrius Kulikauskas
      > Minciu Sodas
      > http://www.ms.lt
      > ms@...
      > from Bonn, Germany
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Franz Nahrada
      Wow this letter of Marcin is thought-provoquing! I thought it should be broken down to pieces, so here I start writing about the issue of physical needs.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 21, 2004
        Wow this letter of Marcin is thought-provoquing! I thought it should be
        broken down to pieces, so here I start writing about the issue of physical
        needs.

        Marcin - even if I think the need hiearchy is different for different
        people, I agree on this point with you: Our society abounds on the surface
        with opportunities to satisfy physical needs, but if you look closer, it
        is maybe exactly because of that the poorest and most deprived society in
        history.

        In my research I have identified three major fields

        - there is no system of physical needs like there is no system of needs at
        all, rather single indulgements; systemic schizophrenia
        - there is a systemic paradoc that creates wealth and poverty and
        therefore different levels of physical needs
        - there is a general irresponsibility and maybe inability to cope around
        overall effects of physical goods - wrongly called "side effects" like in
        the world of drugs - which has led to an explosion in toxidity

        all three points deserve closer observation. The globalvillages concept
        adresses all of them. I think that there is an increasing awareness also
        in the corporate world that we have run into a "complexity trap" and we
        have to sort out *systems of needs* than just singularized needs (there is
        a liberating effect in singularizing also, though. so we do not want
        systems that allow not so singularize needs). In this context there is a
        strong subtext to support open source development because it can better
        address systems of needs.

        There is no time currently to say much about the three fields of research,
        maybe just sketch where there might be best places these subjects are/were
        dealt with:

        a) interrelation of needs and interrelation of goods: Most likely can be
        dealt with in the "pattern language for global villages", if there is
        enough participation. The source I owe most to is Ulrich Sigor with his
        unpublished bits and pieces of a "Qualitative Economics". This is like a
        mine with treasures, but it takes a lot of time to dig in it. Oekonux is a
        group which could also deal with qualitative economics, which means map
        out the social interactions in production and consumption and turn it into
        a system of passive and active competencies. Production in a
        labor-divisive economy begets communication, this communication is reqired
        by the cluetrain manifesto, but we have not thought tht through as a
        system of social roles.

        b) systemic paradox of wealth and poverty: there is a lot of connections
        that I have who address it. I just mention the one in the US which is most
        promising for me. I mean J.W. Smith, a researcher whom I met through Sandi
        in Cambria and who has set up the Institute for Economic Democracy. J..W.
        is the first traditional economist that I know who has started working
        openly. His book "Cooperative Capitalism" as well as its precessors "The
        Worlds Wasted Wealth I and II" are in full text on the web and JW has a
        policy that allows authors to take and modify his researches. (Compare
        this to the outrageous copyright wars that other people in the business of
        critique have started)
        JWs work and books can be found here: http://www.ied.info/summary.html

        I think JW does a lot on the political economy of farming, so I hope you
        can have a read here, Marcin

        c) subtle damage and toxidity: her much was unvailed in the groundbreaking
        work of McDonough/Braungart "Cradle to Cradle". The whole system of
        industrial production is extremely rotten and inconsiderate, forced by
        increasing acceleration of production cycles forced by competition.
        see http://www.mbdc.com/

        The problem is that there are interdependencies, but each field in itself
        has a certain internal logic. It is also very easy to think that
        everything in the world is due to one specific logic. I think that is not
        the case. That makes it very difficult to communicate even with the
        communities that deal with a certain segment. They do not see their place
        in the whole.

        But it would be very promising to agree that if the three communities
        would work together, we would have real concrete solutions.

        And global villages are a wholistic model where the three issues can be
        dealt with. This is not (yet) a solution for the whole world!

        Franz


        globalvillages@yahoogroups.com on Mittwoch, 21. Juli 2004 at 05:08 Uhr
        +0100 wrote:
        >Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the knowledge
        >necessary to become a productive member of society. The key assumption
        >that i hold here still is based on Maslow's pyramid. Physical needs are
        >first, because they influence psychological needs. I don't believe we can
        >have a healthy society as long as our physical environment
        >(infrastructures, goods and services) is unhealthy. We apparently
        >disagree
        >on this point, but one realm of personal growth for me involves the clear
        >communication of my 'assumption' that physical needs are first. Physical
        >needs means the products of human production infrastructures (production
        >of products, ideas, education, infrastructures...). To me, discontinuing
        >the thorough addiction to 'making a living' in society is key. When i say
        >physical needs are first, i am referring to the infrastructure in society
        >which makes many people unhappy in the process of providing human needs.
        >The means of production and our physical environment have a profound
        >effect on human psychology. We can't be making people feel truly good by
        >psychology alone, unless people are spiritual masters. Since there is
        >only
        >a small number of 'spiritual masters,' it is better to focus on the whole
        >process of manufacturing the physical human environment, since this is
        >more tangible, and in my view, easier. Approaching the problem from
        >psychology is, to me, like building a house without a foundation. And
        >here's the key: if you want to affect people psychologically, you must
        >affect their physical experience. In this way, i agree with you, that a
        >better society lies in changing the minds of humans. I think that the
        >peoples' minds can be changed by changing their physical environment: the
        >products they use, the streets they live on, the way they make their
        >livelihood. This is why i approach creating a better society from the
        >point of the means of production. And means of production includes
        >technology, law, finance, organizational issues. I must admit, i find
        >efforts that are not based on improving the provision of goods and
        >services in some way as not 'getting it.' Pardon my humility level.
      • ms@auste.elnet.lt
        Hi Marcin, Thank you for your letter. I will now try to write more concretely how we might work together. First, my travel plans. Tomorrow I will go to
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 22, 2004
          Hi Marcin,

          Thank you for your letter. I will now try to write more concretely how we
          might work together.

          First, my travel plans. Tomorrow I will go to Maastricht to meet with Kim
          Veltman, a colleague of Franz and an original thinker in knowledge
          organization. There I hope to catch up on what is the "state of the art".

          I have also done important original work in this field. In 1999, I started
          work on an import-export standard for tools for organizing thoughts -
          something that is necessary for tools like FreeMind to be usable so that our
          thoughts don't get trapped in any particular tool. I received funding from
          http://www.thebrain.com and http://www.mindmanager.com and organized a
          working group of 45 makers and users of such tools (including inventors of
          open source tools Thoughtstream, Lucid Fried Eggs, Touchgraph, FreeMind and
          more) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thinkingpowerfully/

          I wrote a paper "Organizing Thoughts into Sequences, Hierarchies and
          Networks" http://www.ms.lt/ms/projects/structurekinds/paper052499.html
          "Sequences, hierarchies, and networks are three basic external structuring
          modes. In practice, when a sequence, hierarchy, or network grows too large,
          an additional structuring must be introduced to get things back under
          control. Each restructuring makes for a qualitatively different
          visualization, giving six basic visualization types: chronicle, evolution,
          catalog, atlas, tour, canon"

          and a draft of a modeling language, Mindset:
          http://www.ms.lt/mindset.html

          I pursued this as Editor/Moderator for the Knowledge Management Consortium
          International, Convener of the Infrared Data Assocation working group Flow of
          Experiences, and Member of the Authoring Group for the XML for Topic Maps
          standard. But I was not able to get funding from large companies, so I had to
          move on.
          I continue to lead http://groups.yahoogroups.com/group/personalbrain/

          I will see if Kim Veltman might be interested in participating as an
          investigator, in which case I would restructure our "thinkingpowerfully"
          working group around him.

          Partly I write this so that you would understand my qualifications,
          experience, practical results (such as WOW), strategic thinking (on a level
          of standards, data formats, interchange, content, usage patterns) in
          comparison with Ron Stockinger and the creators of the software that you
          mention. Of course, everybody can have good ideas and interesting projects.
          I think more important than all of this is the ability to participate openly,
          for example, through our open correspondence. Because then we can grow. And
          also our ability to develop and use tools (such as a simple Yahoo group) that
          are not toys or fictions but actually produce results. I just write as a
          reality check - I have seen in Ron a few good sparks but so far nothing much
          I can latch onto that deals with my own needs - and he is just learning to
          work openly and is not adept at it (Which is to say that, yes, I want to work
          with all people, but I will focus my efforts to the extent that do work
          openly). The tools you mention are not to my knowledge anything that meets
          any absolute needs, (for example I am creating very useful diagrams with just
          Microsoft Paint) and there are much simpler tools (and usage patterns) that
          would have a bigger effect in terms of what I imagine we need.

          I must go - I will think more about what you write and respond.

          I have part-time work that I can do while traveling. I think I will go from
          Maastricht to Brussels to London to Wales (to work with John Rogers as
          hopefully our investigator for multidimensional economy, community
          currencies, etc.) and perhaps throughout in England and Scotland. I might
          return to Lithuania to organize in the countryside in September and then go
          to the Poland ERDE meeting (will you come?) and then it would be a great time
          to go to Madison, Wisconsin and stay for a month and a half. So I could work
          for you and with you before, there, and after.

          Just as you understand "bootstrapping", so do I think of the information
          process, that each participant must gain directly from each action they take,
          and that is difficult to organize socially. (That is the basis of my
          diagram). So the foundation is to get people immediate value from generating
          and entering content. Next, we can consider how to navigate that
          information. I hope my paper helps express my focus on a data format (rather
          than tools) which would be free to move between different kinds of
          visualization systems (the tools will come as needed for particular purposes
          and will continuously improve if the content doesn't get trapped but can flow
          freely).

          Peace,

          Andrius

          Andrius Kulikauskas
          Minciu Sodas
          http://www.ms.lt
          ms@...



          Data , "marcin@..." <marcin@...> Rašyta:

          >Andrius,
          >
          >Ok, this sounds more concrete. What format were you considering? Can
          >CMapTools be utilized? What about FreeMind? What about any other neural
          >network? I think Ron Stockinger is key in helping us define the
          >appropriate tools. At least internally at OSE, i'm interested in defining
          >the state of the art in software tools that can be utilized.
          >
          >Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the knowledge
          >necessary to become a productive member of society. The key assumption
          >that i hold here still is based on Maslow's pyramid. Physical needs are
          >first, because they influence psychological needs. I don't believe we can
          >have a healthy society as long as our physical environment
          >(infrastructures, goods and services) is unhealthy. We apparently disagree
          >on this point, but one realm of personal growth for me involves the clear
          >communication of my 'assumption' that physical needs are first. Physical
          >needs means the products of human production infrastructures (production
          >of products, ideas, education, infrastructures...). To me, discontinuing
          >the thorough addiction to 'making a living' in society is key. When i say
          >physical needs are first, i am referring to the infrastructure in society
          >which makes many people unhappy in the process of providing human needs.
          >The means of production and our physical environment have a profound
          >effect on human psychology. We can't be making people feel truly good by
          >psychology alone, unless people are spiritual masters. Since there is only
          >a small number of 'spiritual masters,' it is better to focus on the whole
          >process of manufacturing the physical human environment, since this is
          >more tangible, and in my view, easier. Approaching the problem from
          >psychology is, to me, like building a house without a foundation. And
          >here's the key: if you want to affect people psychologically, you must
          >affect their physical experience. In this way, i agree with you, that a
          >better society lies in changing the minds of humans. I think that the
          >peoples' minds can be changed by changing their physical environment: the
          >products they use, the streets they live on, the way they make their
          >livelihood. This is why i approach creating a better society from the
          >point of the means of production. And means of production includes
          >technology, law, finance, organizational issues. I must admit, i find
          >efforts that are not based on improving the provision of goods and
          >services in some way as not 'getting it.' Pardon my humility level.
          >
          >Here i don't mean that everyone becomes an ethical entrepreneur. That's
          >the job of, say 1 or so percent of society. Here are my assumptions on how
          >the world works: about 1% or so of the population rules the world. That is
          >called international finance capital. It includes, for example, the
          >adventures of Columbus, and today, the adventures of Goldman Sachs. Next:
          >a few percent of the world's population generates the local
          >infrastructures: cities, their roads, new housing developments, so forth.
          >Still big money, but not as large as the virtual, global finance capital,
          >and larger than what the middle class has at its disposition. Next, the
          >third class of agents that affect how the world looks are ethical
          >entrepreneurs. These are the people who participate in networking,
          >organizational, and political life. These are the people that OSE is
          >interested in generating. These individuals migrate into the upper two
          >classes: the global and local finance capital. The vast majority, 90-95%
          >are not involved in any significant way in affecting how the world in the
          >future. That is, most people lead 'normal lives,' and have no interest in
          >a post-autistic economy.
          >
          >In any case, the case for open knowhow is key. Our institutions don't
          >train us to become entrepreneurs, but to become part of the industrial
          >machine and its support functions. Thus, i see the need for training the
          >ethical entrepreneurs to provide options of meeting human needs consistent
          >with our deepest and truest needs. For example, we do not need more food
          >in the USA. We need real food, quality food, with a corresponding
          >infrastructure that nourishes the human spirit at all steps. We do not
          >have that yet. I am interested in creating this nourishing infrastructure
          >in the food, housing, and other sectors. That vision requires hard
          >technical expertise.
          >
          >In sum, we need: (1) the ability to collect the information- i see here
          >the need to implement a collaboration platform. I see a masterminded
          >skeleton, with content filled in an open source way by numerous
          >contribution. The main challenge here is to establish the legitimacy of
          >such a project to foster wide input. What are your ideas on that? (2) The
          >ability to implement the information. We are in the process of acquiring
          >50 acres for a full research campus with experimental labs, agriculture
          >operations, building demonstrators, so forth. This is the physical plant
          >where we can build and test ideas. Moreover, for business models, legal,
          >and financial knowhow, we are generating students who are demonstrating
          >their abilities by taking concrete steps towards startup of ethical
          >enterprise as a requirement for graduation. (3) The ability to organize
          >the information. What tools can we use here? Overall, the goal is having
          >state of the art procedural and technical information access at one's
          >fingertips. Things like: how do i structure my corporation legally to
          >handle donations for placing landholdings for the benefit of the public;
          >where do i get my seeds? How do i design a closed loop water system for my
          >house? Where are the manufacturing blueprints for a wind generator? So
          >this includes open source technology, items such as open source
          >photovoltaics production, and others.
          >
          >Key here is information access: indexical environments, visual
          >representation, databasing, expert systems, multimedia generation, etc. I
          >see a CMapTools map with links to multimedia on hammering a nail into a
          >wall; a website that shows the economic analysis of a housing development;
          >name of key person who can help and is most committed to the open-sourcing
          >of information; distilled instructions on the steps required to set up a
          >telco in Crete; etc. I see some tool like TheBrain, and some features of
          >FreeMind.
          >
          >On the technical support front, the clear definition of tools to be used
          >is important for replicability. That is: what are the tools, how do we
          >acquire them and install them, and how do we learn them. This should all
          >be at our fingertips. Of course, this changes dynamically, but so far i
          >have not seen a one-stop-shop for gaining distilled perspective, or
          >expertism, without having to 'jump through hoops' of various professional
          >schools or programs. We have a chance to change this, by collecting and
          >distilling.
          >
          >Here are my thoughts: i have a hard time seeing a distributed effort
          >succeeding in this. Missing is focus, because unless people can contribute
          >their full attention, all other activities will interfere. That's why
          >funding must come through the activity itself. That's the reason why i
          >promote work on 'the means of production of goods and services.' As we
          >learn, we are also producers; productive acticity has income. This is my
          >bootstrapping finance model. For example, by open-sourcing our farm
          >project, we are also getting paid by products we grow, as part of an
          >integrated social marketing package that is also used to dedicate the
          >funds to purchase local lands.
          >
          >My way to generate the focus is to have bootstrapping financing, augmented
          >by many donations. Thus, it is full time work, where people communicate
          >directly with one another. The distillation process can then take shape. I
          >see a team of 100 people on-site by year end 2006 at OSE. This way we are
          >generating significant local improvement: lands acquired for permanent
          >sound use, millions of dollars in goods and corresponding healthy
          >livelihoods generated, etc. These are measurable.
          >
          >So how do we continue?
          >
          >Marcin
          >
          >On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, minciusodas wrote:
          >
          >> Hi Marcin,
          >>
          >> I am catching up with your letter. Thank you!
          >> Here is a "distillation" of your key needs as I understand them.
          >>
          >> You want to: create beautiful livelihoods
          >> By means of: open access to knowledge
          >> In particular, expressed as: an expert system to lead the user
          >> through the design of a house
          >> For which you need to: Mastermind the collection of the information
          >> into integrated business models.
          >>
          >> I would approach this so that it radiates from a human perspective.
          >> I would start with the human concerns, working from the wider issues
          >> to the narrower issues. This is an organizing principle that will
          >> allow for the evolution of our knowledge. We could create:
          >>
          >> - A glossary of key concepts. For you they might include "beautiful
          >> livelihood", "open access", "sustainability", "affordability", etc.
          >> You would define your key concepts in words and with examples or
          >> illustrations, continuously refining or expanding so they are very
          >> well grounded and we can understand you. Others might restate these
          >> concepts in their own words. But you would be the reference point
          >> for the key concepts most important for you, just as Joy Tang might
          >> define "AIDS economy" or Franz Nahrada might define "global
          >> villages". This is not so much about the actual words, but about the
          >> concepts that certain individuals are anchoring with them.
          >>
          >> - An unfolding tree of ideas. Your outline contains many ideas about
          >> life, many assumptions - for example, that houses are best designed
          >> using principles from the natural world, that we should avoid debt,
          >> or that we should be financially literate. It is important to make
          >> these assumptions explicit, and to clarify them. As part of that, I
          >> think it is very helpful to show which assumptions are core, and
          >> which are derivative. How does one assumption derive from another?
          >> This prioritization will make it much easier to critique, verify,
          >> correct and apply your principles. I think it is also the basis for
          >> an expert system that would guide through decision making or learning
          >> processes. For example, why should a person build a new home if they
          >> haven't understood why they need one? or what are valid reasons for
          >> having a home, old or new? For example, the goals of Open Source
          >> Ecology might be better met perhaps if people realized that they can
          >> live quite happily in smaller homes, or with other people.
          >>
          >> - A documentation of subjective contexts (often as stories, but
          >> including relevant data, such as financial or physical) that are the
          >> grounding for your assumptions. Other people may also share their
          >> stories. Because generally we do not "prove" our assertions but
          >> instead we simply have "testimony" from people that they find it to
          >> be so. (This is often what we mean by "wisdom"). This is why I
          >> speak of assumptions, because they are oriented to serve and direct
          >> our subjective outlook, and so they are and should be vulnerable to
          >> correction at any time. Often this is a matter of new understanding,
          >> perhaps more mature, perhaps mistaken, perhaps a reinterpretation.
          >>
          >> - The ability to generate maps of agreement or disagreement by
          >> participants with regard to the assumptions. People are able to work
          >> together even when they do not agree on every point. It helps for
          >> them to recognize where their assumptions match, and where not. And
          >> how do they phrase them with regard to the key concepts.
          >>
          >> - Often these assumptions may be detailed to show that they
          >> are "rules of thumb" that mediate a recurrent activity and an
          >> associated structure that is evoked, sustained, imposed. We may
          >> speak of these as "patterns" in the sense of Christopher Alexander,
          >> and relate them in a "pattern language".
          >>
          >> - At this point we can have a program of self-learning which I
          >> imagine is a branching out (and looping back) of questions that
          >> people should explore (sooner or later) if they care about a
          >> subject. And it would provide means to explore the questions,
          >> including the study of classic texts, visits to relevant sites,
          >> discussion with experts, collection of data, personal investigations
          >> or exercises, etc. There should also be a way to document one's
          >> learning and contribute one's findings.
          >>
          >> This may sound quite abstract. But personally I think by treating
          >> our questions as primarily of subjective importance, it deals with
          >> the most personal and important ones first. And it quickly branches
          >> out to the "practical" issues like "I need to learn how to hammer"
          >> or "How can I get lumber?" but also "Maybe I should live with my
          >> grandparents instead" or "I should really move to France" or "This is
          >> the part with which my wife does not agree".
          >>
          >> I think with such a system we can be well grounded so that we can
          >> with sufficient confidence encourage new participants, and they can
          >> quickly find themselves. We may think of this system as a way for
          >> people to "know themselves" as straightforwardly as possible. This
          >> is perhaps the greatest purpose of "open source" and the hurdle that
          >> it overcomes.
          >>
          >> - It is then straightforward for students to develop business plans
          >> that they can test to consider if they make sense for themselves, and
          >> to what extent they might make sense for others. These would
          >> actually be more like "life plans" rather than business plans. So we
          >> would develop tools for them to express their life plans as
          >> calculations in the context of the tree of assumptions that they have
          >> personally explored and tested.
          >>
          >> - We will also have connection with a WOW system that would help one
          >> find the websites that are useful in exploring these questions, and
          >> an online networking system for engaging the needed resources.
          >>
          >> Marcin, would such a system satisfy your needs? What more should be
          >> added? Or how would you shape this? I think this as roughly fitting
          >> in with the "pattern repository" parts of our web system for working
          >> openly, and I will try to redraw that.
          >>
          >> I think this system will be personally rewarding for participants and
          >> will also help them practically achieve what they desire.
          >>
          >> Andrius
          >>
          >> Andrius Kulikauskas
          >> Minciu Sodas
          >> http://www.ms.lt
          >> ms@...
          >> from Bonn, Germany
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • minciusodas
          Hi Marcin, I am thinking about your requirements. I am extracting and restating your statements - please correct me! You want to organize the knowledge by
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 22, 2004
            Hi Marcin,

            I am thinking about your requirements. I am extracting and restating
            your statements - please correct me!

            You want to organize the knowledge by which we can be "productive"
            members of society. But this does not mean that we need
            more "things". It means that we need them to be nourishing, and
            especially for the infrastructure to nourish us at every step.

            You want to:
            1) collect information on the state of the art
            2) apply that information in your pilot projects
            3) organize all of that information so that it is easy to access

            You want an open working together. You favor a bootstrapping method
            where each step in each activity brings its own clear, direct value.
            This allows participants to focus more on the particular work they
            choose to do. You work especially with participants who are of high
            and growing consciousness.

            You want to also document the best tools for your work, and make that
            available.

            Is this summary OK?

            I have thoughts on it. Basically, I agree that it is crucial that
            each step be spiritually nourishing - and this is I think a key part
            of the information. It is the "data field" that is the common thread
            in all the data. Another key part is the physical effect. So our
            repository should show how they are intertwined. This intertwining
            is how there can be bootstrapping (or growing resonance) between the
            physical and the spiritual. It is a key aspect to be mindful of, to
            learn and master. Likewise, in the "division of labor" for
            assembling the information, each step needs to be its own reward, and
            give some value directly to the one doing it. This is the principle
            behind the diagram I have drawn.

            I think that a key point to consider is that often the best way to
            find information is to find the expert and converse with them. This
            is an opportunity to make much of the information process a
            worthwhile investment in the sense of nourishing the spirit. We
            might consider how to make such queries mutually beneficial. It can
            be, for example, part of the business model to honor those who are
            helping with their knowledge. That might be through an alternate
            currency. I think that effective information systems need to be at
            least half human, otherwise we are running in mental mazes trying to
            avoid each other, it is an anti-social, anti-learning outlook.

            Also, the state of the art for "tools for thinking" is very low. On
            the other hand, it is not difficult to create useful tools from
            scratch. The problem is discovering the usage patterns that really
            work, and also finding an effective division of labor for your
            community.

            Thinking,

            Andrius

            Andrius Kulikauskas
            Minciu Sodas
            http://www.ms.lt
            ms@...


            the rest is from Marcin's letters
            ---------------------------------------------------------

            At least internally at OSE, i'm interested in defining the state of
            the art in software tools that can be utilized.

            (1) the ability to collect the information- i see here the need to
            implement a collaboration platform. I see a masterminded skeleton,
            with content filled in an open source way by numerous contribution.
            The main challenge here is to establish the legitimacy of such a
            project to foster wide input.

            (2) The ability to implement the information. We are acquiring
            50 acres for a full research campus with experimental labs,
            agriculture operations, building demonstrators, so forth. Moreover,
            for business models, legal, and financial knowhow, we are generating
            students who are demonstrating their abilities by taking concrete
            steps towards startup of ethical enterprise as a requirement for
            graduation.

            (3) The ability to organize the information. What tools can we use
            here? Overall, the goal is having state of the art procedural and
            technical information access at one's fingertips. Things like: how do
            i structure my corporation legally to handle donations for placing
            landholdings for the benefit of the public; where do i get my seeds?
            How do i design a closed loop water system for my house? Where are
            the manufacturing blueprints for a wind generator? So this includes
            open source technology, items such as open source photovoltaics
            production, and others.

            Key here is information access: indexical environments, visual
            representation, databasing, expert systems, multimedia generation,
            etc. I see a CMapTools map with links to multimedia on hammering a
            nail into a wall; a website that shows the economic analysis of a
            housing development; name of key person who can help and is most
            committed to the open-sourcing of information; distilled instructions
            on the steps required to set up a telco in Crete; etc. I see some
            tool like TheBrain, and some features of FreeMind.

            On the technical support front, the clear definition of tools to be
            used is important for replicability. That is: what are the tools, how
            do we acquire them and install them, and how do we learn them. This
            should all be at our fingertips. Of course, this changes dynamically,
            but so far i have not seen a one-stop-shop for gaining distilled
            perspective, or expertism, without having to 'jump through hoops' of
            various professional schools or programs. We have a chance to change
            this, by collecting and distilling.

            Here are my thoughts: i have a hard time seeing a distributed effort
            succeeding in this. Missing is focus, because unless people can
            contribute their full attention, all other activities will interfere.
            That's why funding must come through the activity itself. That's the
            reason why i promote work on 'the means of production of goods and
            services.' As we learn, we are also producers; productive acticity
            has income. This is my bootstrapping finance model. For example, by
            open-sourcing our farm project, we are also getting paid by products
            we grow, as part of an integrated social marketing package that is
            also used to dedicate the funds to purchase local lands.

            ----------------------------------------------------

            open knowhow is key. i see the need for training the ethical
            entrepreneurs to provide options of meeting human needs consistent
            with our deepest and truest needs. For example, we do not need more
            food in the USA. We need real food, quality food, with a corresponding
            infrastructure that nourishes the human spirit at all steps. That
            vision requires hard technical expertise.

            Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the knowledge
            necessary to become a productive member of society. The key assumption
            that i hold: Physical needs are first. Physical needs means the
            products of human production infrastructures (production of products,
            ideas, education, infrastructures...). i am referring to the
            infrastructure in society which makes many people unhappy in the
            process of providing human needs. focus on the whole process of
            manufacturing the physical human environment. means of production
            includes technology, law, finance, organizational issues. efforts are
            based on improving the provision of goods and services

            Ethical entrepreneurs - that's the job of, say 1 or so percent of
            society. They participate in networking, organizational, and
            political life. OSE is interested in generating them. They further
            migrate into the upper two classes: the global and local finance
            capital. Most people lead 'normal lives,' and have no interest in
            a post-autistic economy.

            -----------------------------

            What format were you considering? Can CMapTools be utilized? What
            about FreeMind? What about any other neural network?
          • Paul S Prueitt
            Our group, www.bcngroup.org, is developing a technology that provides an informational transparency over the social discourse. communication continued at:
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 23, 2004
              Our group, www.bcngroup.org, is developing a technology that provides an informational transparency over the social discourse.
               
              communication continued at:
               
               
              in reference to a note from globalvillages Yahoo e-forum
               
               
              Please let me know if your address should not be included in out communications, or if you would like to add any addresses. 
               
               
            • marcin@steaky.org
              Andrius, That s essentially right. The inherent part of the work for me is not to focus on a social process with the remote community, which is a virtual
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 25, 2004
                Andrius,

                That's essentially right. The inherent part of the work for me is not to
                focus on a social process with the remote community, which is a virtual
                social activity, but a local process where people are getting trained and
                jobs are being created. All based on knowledge from all over the earth.
                All towards providing human needs locally- food, housing, education,
                physical needs, security needs, renunciation needs, and so forth, but
                starting with basic needs. Our physical infrastructures are to be healed.

                This sounds flaky, but the bottom line is the bottom line. The teleology
                is clear: viable economic models for open source economic development,
                using practical tools, adhering to measurable results.

                On experts: we are not looking for process but for ' results,' namely,
                technical operationalization knowhow. We aim to start a local process
                using these results. The key is real local projects, whose philosophy and
                implementation can be adapted to any area of the world, using their local
                resources. People anywhere have the same basic, as well as higher, needs.
                We aim to generate the experts locally.

                Marcin


                On
                Thu, 22 Jul 2004, minciusodas wrote:

                > Hi Marcin,
                >
                > I am thinking about your requirements. I am extracting and restating
                > your statements - please correct me!
                >
                > You want to organize the knowledge by which we can be "productive"
                > members of society. But this does not mean that we need
                > more "things". It means that we need them to be nourishing, and
                > especially for the infrastructure to nourish us at every step.
                >
                > You want to:
                > 1) collect information on the state of the art
                > 2) apply that information in your pilot projects
                > 3) organize all of that information so that it is easy to access
                >
                > You want an open working together. You favor a bootstrapping method
                > where each step in each activity brings its own clear, direct value.
                > This allows participants to focus more on the particular work they
                > choose to do. You work especially with participants who are of high
                > and growing consciousness.
                >
                > You want to also document the best tools for your work, and make that
                > available.
                >
                > Is this summary OK?
                >
                > I have thoughts on it. Basically, I agree that it is crucial that
                > each step be spiritually nourishing - and this is I think a key part
                > of the information. It is the "data field" that is the common thread
                > in all the data. Another key part is the physical effect. So our
                > repository should show how they are intertwined. This intertwining
                > is how there can be bootstrapping (or growing resonance) between the
                > physical and the spiritual. It is a key aspect to be mindful of, to
                > learn and master. Likewise, in the "division of labor" for
                > assembling the information, each step needs to be its own reward, and
                > give some value directly to the one doing it. This is the principle
                > behind the diagram I have drawn.
                >
                > I think that a key point to consider is that often the best way to
                > find information is to find the expert and converse with them. This
                > is an opportunity to make much of the information process a
                > worthwhile investment in the sense of nourishing the spirit. We
                > might consider how to make such queries mutually beneficial. It can
                > be, for example, part of the business model to honor those who are
                > helping with their knowledge. That might be through an alternate
                > currency. I think that effective information systems need to be at
                > least half human, otherwise we are running in mental mazes trying to
                > avoid each other, it is an anti-social, anti-learning outlook.
                >
                > Also, the state of the art for "tools for thinking" is very low. On
                > the other hand, it is not difficult to create useful tools from
                > scratch. The problem is discovering the usage patterns that really
                > work, and also finding an effective division of labor for your
                > community.
                >
                > Thinking,
                >
                > Andrius
                >
                > Andrius Kulikauskas
                > Minciu Sodas
                > http://www.ms.lt
                > ms@...
                >
                >
                > the rest is from Marcin's letters
                > ---------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > At least internally at OSE, i'm interested in defining the state of
                > the art in software tools that can be utilized.
                >
                > (1) the ability to collect the information- i see here the need to
                > implement a collaboration platform. I see a masterminded skeleton,
                > with content filled in an open source way by numerous contribution.
                > The main challenge here is to establish the legitimacy of such a
                > project to foster wide input.
                >
                > (2) The ability to implement the information. We are acquiring
                > 50 acres for a full research campus with experimental labs,
                > agriculture operations, building demonstrators, so forth. Moreover,
                > for business models, legal, and financial knowhow, we are generating
                > students who are demonstrating their abilities by taking concrete
                > steps towards startup of ethical enterprise as a requirement for
                > graduation.
                >
                > (3) The ability to organize the information. What tools can we use
                > here? Overall, the goal is having state of the art procedural and
                > technical information access at one's fingertips. Things like: how do
                > i structure my corporation legally to handle donations for placing
                > landholdings for the benefit of the public; where do i get my seeds?
                > How do i design a closed loop water system for my house? Where are
                > the manufacturing blueprints for a wind generator? So this includes
                > open source technology, items such as open source photovoltaics
                > production, and others.
                >
                > Key here is information access: indexical environments, visual
                > representation, databasing, expert systems, multimedia generation,
                > etc. I see a CMapTools map with links to multimedia on hammering a
                > nail into a wall; a website that shows the economic analysis of a
                > housing development; name of key person who can help and is most
                > committed to the open-sourcing of information; distilled instructions
                > on the steps required to set up a telco in Crete; etc. I see some
                > tool like TheBrain, and some features of FreeMind.
                >
                > On the technical support front, the clear definition of tools to be
                > used is important for replicability. That is: what are the tools, how
                > do we acquire them and install them, and how do we learn them. This
                > should all be at our fingertips. Of course, this changes dynamically,
                > but so far i have not seen a one-stop-shop for gaining distilled
                > perspective, or expertism, without having to 'jump through hoops' of
                > various professional schools or programs. We have a chance to change
                > this, by collecting and distilling.
                >
                > Here are my thoughts: i have a hard time seeing a distributed effort
                > succeeding in this. Missing is focus, because unless people can
                > contribute their full attention, all other activities will interfere.
                > That's why funding must come through the activity itself. That's the
                > reason why i promote work on 'the means of production of goods and
                > services.' As we learn, we are also producers; productive acticity
                > has income. This is my bootstrapping finance model. For example, by
                > open-sourcing our farm project, we are also getting paid by products
                > we grow, as part of an integrated social marketing package that is
                > also used to dedicate the funds to purchase local lands.
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------
                >
                > open knowhow is key. i see the need for training the ethical
                > entrepreneurs to provide options of meeting human needs consistent
                > with our deepest and truest needs. For example, we do not need more
                > food in the USA. We need real food, quality food, with a corresponding
                > infrastructure that nourishes the human spirit at all steps. That
                > vision requires hard technical expertise.
                >
                > Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the knowledge
                > necessary to become a productive member of society. The key assumption
                > that i hold: Physical needs are first. Physical needs means the
                > products of human production infrastructures (production of products,
                > ideas, education, infrastructures...). i am referring to the
                > infrastructure in society which makes many people unhappy in the
                > process of providing human needs. focus on the whole process of
                > manufacturing the physical human environment. means of production
                > includes technology, law, finance, organizational issues. efforts are
                > based on improving the provision of goods and services
                >
                > Ethical entrepreneurs - that's the job of, say 1 or so percent of
                > society. They participate in networking, organizational, and
                > political life. OSE is interested in generating them. They further
                > migrate into the upper two classes: the global and local finance
                > capital. Most people lead 'normal lives,' and have no interest in
                > a post-autistic economy.
                >
                > -----------------------------
                >
                > What format were you considering? Can CMapTools be utilized? What
                > about FreeMind? What about any other neural network?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • minciusodas
                Hi Marcin, Thank you for your letter. I don t understand how you fit together the local and the global. It almost seems that you don t need a global dimension
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 28, 2004
                  Hi Marcin,

                  Thank you for your letter.

                  I don't understand how you fit together the local and the global. It
                  almost seems that you don't need a global dimension for your
                  projects - they stand on their own locally. The only purpose of a
                  global society seems to be to share results of what works locally.
                  That seems to imply that conditions around the world are very similar
                  and it is straightforward to adapt solutions from one place to
                  another.

                  My experience is that, around the world, there is much more in common
                  between people than between their situations. For example, Wisconsin
                  is one of the wealthiest places in the world. Transferring solutions
                  from Wisconsin to Lithuania is almost like transfering them from
                  Monaco to Calcutta. Especially if our interest is self-
                  sustainability, which very much depends on the local situation. What
                  is constructive activity in one land may be quite destructive in
                  another, and vice versa.

                  Personally - practically and theoretically - I place a lot of hope in
                  the global economy. (I think our working together is a small piece
                  of that). It might be argued that the progress of civilization has
                  come from the ability of people to work together across greater and
                  greater barriers. In a global world, I don't understand how you can
                  have viable "local" business models if they don't rely on global
                  teams. Unless perhaps you live in a very wealthy country that can
                  exploit other countries (and migrants, etc.) without having to think
                  much about it. Also, I don't understand why I (as a "nonlocal"
                  expert) would want to invest myself in a "local" community that
                  wanted to disconnect with me as soon as it could. A local solution
                  perhaps would be to pay a local expert a local wage.

                  I have been thinking (and speaking with Kim Veltman) about how to
                  organize the collection (for each key participant) of key words, key
                  ideas, patterns and their relationships. But again I think this is
                  about investing in people. I think as a person you have a great
                  future, but I think many of your solutions are wrong. (And at this
                  stage isn't it to be expected that most of your solutions are
                  incomplete or wrong?) So why would I invest myself in
                  your "solutions"? if you are going to abandon them. Wouldn't it be
                  more reasonable to invest myself in you as a person?

                  These next few weeks I have to focus on paying clients. I am also
                  traveling (Friday to Brussels, then London, then Wales). I apologize
                  I am not prompt in responding.

                  Marcin, I suppose a key question is, Do you want to share resources
                  to build a system that would be useful for several groups (such as
                  OneVillage, GlobalVillages, Minciu Sodas and others)? If yes, then I
                  can make an extra effort to work for you and with you, sometimes for
                  free, sometimes for modest pay. If no, then probably I should stop
                  trying! and perhaps we might reconsider when we are both further
                  along in our work.

                  A note to all: I have set up Lucid Fried Eggs (a Brain-like wiki by
                  Stephen Danic) and am trying to understand how to customize it for
                  our various communities (I have had some obstacles). I will set that
                  up to work with WOW. I have asked for a faster server and that
                  should be set up within a week.

                  Peace,

                  Andrius

                  Andrius Kulikauskas
                  Minciu Sodas
                  http;//www.ms.lt
                  ms@...



                  --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, marcin@s... wrote:
                  > Andrius,
                  >
                  > That's essentially right. The inherent part of the work for me is
                  not to
                  > focus on a social process with the remote community, which is a
                  virtual
                  > social activity, but a local process where people are getting
                  trained and
                  > jobs are being created. All based on knowledge from all over the
                  earth.
                  > All towards providing human needs locally- food, housing,
                  education,
                  > physical needs, security needs, renunciation needs, and so forth,
                  but
                  > starting with basic needs. Our physical infrastructures are to be
                  healed.
                  >
                  > This sounds flaky, but the bottom line is the bottom line. The
                  teleology
                  > is clear: viable economic models for open source economic
                  development,
                  > using practical tools, adhering to measurable results.
                  >
                  > On experts: we are not looking for process but for ' results,'
                  namely,
                  > technical operationalization knowhow. We aim to start a local
                  process
                  > using these results. The key is real local projects, whose
                  philosophy and
                  > implementation can be adapted to any area of the world, using their
                  local
                  > resources. People anywhere have the same basic, as well as higher,
                  needs.
                  > We aim to generate the experts locally.
                  >
                  > Marcin
                  >
                  >
                  > On
                  > Thu, 22 Jul 2004, minciusodas wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Marcin,
                  > >
                  > > I am thinking about your requirements. I am extracting and
                  restating
                  > > your statements - please correct me!
                  > >
                  > > You want to organize the knowledge by which we can
                  be "productive"
                  > > members of society. But this does not mean that we need
                  > > more "things". It means that we need them to be nourishing, and
                  > > especially for the infrastructure to nourish us at every step.
                  > >
                  > > You want to:
                  > > 1) collect information on the state of the art
                  > > 2) apply that information in your pilot projects
                  > > 3) organize all of that information so that it is easy to access
                  > >
                  > > You want an open working together. You favor a bootstrapping
                  method
                  > > where each step in each activity brings its own clear, direct
                  value.
                  > > This allows participants to focus more on the particular work
                  they
                  > > choose to do. You work especially with participants who are of
                  high
                  > > and growing consciousness.
                  > >
                  > > You want to also document the best tools for your work, and make
                  that
                  > > available.
                  > >
                  > > Is this summary OK?
                  > >
                  > > I have thoughts on it. Basically, I agree that it is crucial
                  that
                  > > each step be spiritually nourishing - and this is I think a key
                  part
                  > > of the information. It is the "data field" that is the common
                  thread
                  > > in all the data. Another key part is the physical effect. So
                  our
                  > > repository should show how they are intertwined. This
                  intertwining
                  > > is how there can be bootstrapping (or growing resonance) between
                  the
                  > > physical and the spiritual. It is a key aspect to be mindful of,
                  to
                  > > learn and master. Likewise, in the "division of labor" for
                  > > assembling the information, each step needs to be its own reward,
                  and
                  > > give some value directly to the one doing it. This is the
                  principle
                  > > behind the diagram I have drawn.
                  > >
                  > > I think that a key point to consider is that often the best way
                  to
                  > > find information is to find the expert and converse with them.
                  This
                  > > is an opportunity to make much of the information process a
                  > > worthwhile investment in the sense of nourishing the spirit. We
                  > > might consider how to make such queries mutually beneficial. It
                  can
                  > > be, for example, part of the business model to honor those who
                  are
                  > > helping with their knowledge. That might be through an alternate
                  > > currency. I think that effective information systems need to be
                  at
                  > > least half human, otherwise we are running in mental mazes trying
                  to
                  > > avoid each other, it is an anti-social, anti-learning outlook.
                  > >
                  > > Also, the state of the art for "tools for thinking" is very low.
                  On
                  > > the other hand, it is not difficult to create useful tools from
                  > > scratch. The problem is discovering the usage patterns that
                  really
                  > > work, and also finding an effective division of labor for your
                  > > community.
                  > >
                  > > Thinking,
                  > >
                  > > Andrius
                  > >
                  > > Andrius Kulikauskas
                  > > Minciu Sodas
                  > > http://www.ms.lt
                  > > ms@m...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > the rest is from Marcin's letters
                  > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > At least internally at OSE, i'm interested in defining the state
                  of
                  > > the art in software tools that can be utilized.
                  > >
                  > > (1) the ability to collect the information- i see here the need
                  to
                  > > implement a collaboration platform. I see a masterminded
                  skeleton,
                  > > with content filled in an open source way by numerous
                  contribution.
                  > > The main challenge here is to establish the legitimacy of such a
                  > > project to foster wide input.
                  > >
                  > > (2) The ability to implement the information. We are acquiring
                  > > 50 acres for a full research campus with experimental labs,
                  > > agriculture operations, building demonstrators, so forth.
                  Moreover,
                  > > for business models, legal, and financial knowhow, we are
                  generating
                  > > students who are demonstrating their abilities by taking concrete
                  > > steps towards startup of ethical enterprise as a requirement for
                  > > graduation.
                  > >
                  > > (3) The ability to organize the information. What tools can we
                  use
                  > > here? Overall, the goal is having state of the art procedural and
                  > > technical information access at one's fingertips. Things like:
                  how do
                  > > i structure my corporation legally to handle donations for
                  placing
                  > > landholdings for the benefit of the public; where do i get my
                  seeds?
                  > > How do i design a closed loop water system for my house? Where
                  are
                  > > the manufacturing blueprints for a wind generator? So this
                  includes
                  > > open source technology, items such as open source photovoltaics
                  > > production, and others.
                  > >
                  > > Key here is information access: indexical environments, visual
                  > > representation, databasing, expert systems, multimedia
                  generation,
                  > > etc. I see a CMapTools map with links to multimedia on hammering
                  a
                  > > nail into a wall; a website that shows the economic analysis of a
                  > > housing development; name of key person who can help and is most
                  > > committed to the open-sourcing of information; distilled
                  instructions
                  > > on the steps required to set up a telco in Crete; etc. I see some
                  > > tool like TheBrain, and some features of FreeMind.
                  > >
                  > > On the technical support front, the clear definition of tools to
                  be
                  > > used is important for replicability. That is: what are the tools,
                  how
                  > > do we acquire them and install them, and how do we learn them.
                  This
                  > > should all be at our fingertips. Of course, this changes
                  dynamically,
                  > > but so far i have not seen a one-stop-shop for gaining distilled
                  > > perspective, or expertism, without having to 'jump through hoops'
                  of
                  > > various professional schools or programs. We have a chance to
                  change
                  > > this, by collecting and distilling.
                  > >
                  > > Here are my thoughts: i have a hard time seeing a distributed
                  effort
                  > > succeeding in this. Missing is focus, because unless people can
                  > > contribute their full attention, all other activities will
                  interfere.
                  > > That's why funding must come through the activity itself. That's
                  the
                  > > reason why i promote work on 'the means of production of goods
                  and
                  > > services.' As we learn, we are also producers; productive
                  acticity
                  > > has income. This is my bootstrapping finance model. For example,
                  by
                  > > open-sourcing our farm project, we are also getting paid by
                  products
                  > > we grow, as part of an integrated social marketing package that
                  is
                  > > also used to dedicate the funds to purchase local lands.
                  > >
                  > > ----------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > open knowhow is key. i see the need for training the ethical
                  > > entrepreneurs to provide options of meeting human needs consistent
                  > > with our deepest and truest needs. For example, we do not need
                  more
                  > > food in the USA. We need real food, quality food, with a
                  corresponding
                  > > infrastructure that nourishes the human spirit at all steps. That
                  > > vision requires hard technical expertise.
                  > >
                  > > Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the
                  knowledge
                  > > necessary to become a productive member of society. The key
                  assumption
                  > > that i hold: Physical needs are first. Physical needs means the
                  > > products of human production infrastructures (production of
                  products,
                  > > ideas, education, infrastructures...). i am referring to the
                  > > infrastructure in society which makes many people unhappy in the
                  > > process of providing human needs. focus on the whole process of
                  > > manufacturing the physical human environment. means of
                  production
                  > > includes technology, law, finance, organizational issues. efforts
                  are
                  > > based on improving the provision of goods and services
                  > >
                  > > Ethical entrepreneurs - that's the job of, say 1 or so percent of
                  > > society. They participate in networking, organizational, and
                  > > political life. OSE is interested in generating them. They
                  further
                  > > migrate into the upper two classes: the global and local finance
                  > > capital. Most people lead 'normal lives,' and have no interest in
                  > > a post-autistic economy.
                  > >
                  > > -----------------------------
                  > >
                  > > What format were you considering? Can CMapTools be utilized? What
                  > > about FreeMind? What about any other neural network?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • Franz Nahrada
                  I just received Andrius letter to Marcin and I think we all should take a deep breath and fine - tune the granularity of our arguments ;-) I value them both
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 28, 2004
                    I just received Andrius letter to Marcin and I think we all should take a
                    deep breath and fine - tune the granularity of our arguments ;-)

                    I value them both very highly and I think both have a point.

                    Sorry I am not able to write long letters now although I really feel like
                    going to the very detail and showing a lot of examples that we must not
                    indulge in stereotypes. I cannot do this right now - so I am just pointing
                    in some directions and asking questions.

                    1. Global validity of local solutions
                    >
                    >
                    >I don't understand how you fit together the local and the global. It
                    >almost seems that you don't need a global dimension for your
                    >projects - they stand on their own locally. The only purpose of a
                    >global society seems to be to share results of what works locally.
                    >That seems to imply that conditions around the world are very similar
                    >and it is straightforward to adapt solutions from one place to
                    >another.
                    >
                    >My experience is that, around the world, there is much more in common
                    >between people than between their situations. For example, Wisconsin
                    >is one of the wealthiest places in the world. Transferring solutions
                    >from Wisconsin to Lithuania is almost like transfering them from
                    >Monaco to Calcutta. Especially if our interest is self-
                    >sustainability, which very much depends on the local situation. What
                    >is constructive activity in one land may be quite destructive in
                    >another, and vice versa.

                    In my early globalvillages days I put much emphasis in linking places with
                    similar circumstances and conditions. So for example Telluride which is a
                    winter resort in Colorado with Bad Kleinkirchheim which is a winter resort
                    in Carinthia. I think there are many things places could have in common
                    even if they are in countries of different wealth level. We have had
                    guides from Nepal connected with the Austrian Alpine System, and there was
                    much learning, also about differences. There is target problems and we can
                    gain a lot from notworking if we identify commonalities.

                    Of course Andrius is right about giving certain a second thought, and when
                    I think of the results of our computer project in Cameroon it mirrors much
                    of what has been said here. What we thought would be a sustainable
                    solution turned out to be destructive. But if we really had managed to
                    network corresponding local circumstances, we might have gotten completely
                    different results.

                    At the very essence the subtext for me is different. By globalisation the
                    homogenous national states with their respective average "rich" or "poor"
                    infrastructures give way to "dual spaces" - where in the midst of rich
                    countries seas of poverty emerge. A sociologist from Vienna who is
                    promoting advanced models of local self reliance has put it bluntly: "We
                    have to learn from so called Third World Countries if we want to surviuve".

                    Global Villages are circumstances which emerge simultaniously in the
                    "poor" and in the "rich" world. Our goal is to make them work in both
                    circumstances, have them become living laboratories for each others
                    progress, and understand that they transcend the old concepts of dependent
                    infrastructures.

                    2. Local or global economy
                    >
                    >
                    >Personally - practically and theoretically - I place a lot of hope in
                    >the global economy. (I think our working together is a small piece
                    >of that). It might be argued that the progress of civilization has
                    >come from the ability of people to work together across greater and
                    >greater barriers. In a global world, I don't understand how you can
                    >have viable "local" business models if they don't rely on global
                    >teams. Unless perhaps you live in a very wealthy country that can
                    >exploit other countries (and migrants, etc.) without having to think
                    >much about it. Also, I don't understand why I (as a "nonlocal"
                    >expert) would want to invest myself in a "local" community that
                    >wanted to disconnect with me as soon as it could. A local solution
                    >perhaps would be to pay a local expert a local wage.

                    We must acknowledge that globalisation nowadays is primarily a destructive
                    form of something which could be very beneficial. Capital is moving fast
                    because the air is getting thin in a deadly competitive world. Its like a
                    panic, a wave of fear, which forces economic activities to change their
                    places recklessly and continuously without regard of the living
                    necessities of people, because elsewhere labour is cheaper somewhere else
                    etc.

                    Reconsidering the local abilities to "immunize" the sources of our living
                    against such deadly vandalism is therefore legitimate.

                    The strength of Global Villages is that the success of immunisation is
                    equal to delivering a healthy global body, with cells mutually supporting
                    each other, healing the weakest point instead of letting them get rotten
                    etc. Cells in a body have a very active local metabolism, yet they have
                    all kinds of flows of matter and energy to support this metabolism. And
                    there is constant flow of information.

                    There is blood with specialised cells flowing through the whole body. So
                    in a similar way the global "migrants" seem to be an indispensable part of
                    the globalvillages concept. Like the honeybees, they carry information and
                    energy from one place to another.

                    But at the core of everything are the local abilities to solve problems
                    locally. Global Villages is a concept built on the idea of subsidiarity
                    and decentralisation. I do not agree in the opposition of global and local
                    here. In my view we are a global movement with the main purpose to enhance
                    local abilities.

                    I think the idea of disconnecting is wrong. I see it rather as the
                    opportunity to come again and again. Some of us are building our homestead
                    in many villages. But that works with respect for the goal of
                    strengthening the local economy.

                    3. Wrong and right
                    >
                    >I have been thinking (and speaking with Kim Veltman) about how to
                    >organize the collection (for each key participant) of key words, key
                    >ideas, patterns and their relationships. But again I think this is
                    >about investing in people. I think as a person you have a great
                    >future, but I think many of your solutions are wrong. (And at this
                    >stage isn't it to be expected that most of your solutions are
                    >incomplete or wrong?) So why would I invest myself in
                    >your "solutions"? if you are going to abandon them. Wouldn't it be
                    >more reasonable to invest myself in you as a person?
                    >
                    I think Marcin is a person worth investing in because he as a person
                    represents the idea of radically changing the rules of the game from
                    competition to cooperation. Some of the solutions we might not agree with,
                    but the principle of open source ecology is a central pattern in Global
                    Villages.

                    I think it also is a question of fairness to state where Marcin is
                    supposedly wrong. I do not have enough material yet to make such a
                    judgement. It is good and OK to critisize each other in our effort so we
                    can become better.

                    Is it wrong to focus on a demonstration project of Open Source ecology
                    when Open Source Ecology does not yet even barely exist? I simply cannot
                    answer this question. I have my doubts if the main focus on open farm and
                    open housing is straightforwardly going to lead us to cooperative
                    networks of craftspeople and farmers. I see many missing links in
                    technology, I see basically inappropriate technologies dominate whatever
                    we do, while the potential of collaborative design and decentralized
                    automation is mainly untapped. But I also see the necessity of beginning
                    somewhere to break out of vicious cycles, and Marcin has chosen his place.

                    4. Wanting to share
                    >
                    >
                    >Marcin, I suppose a key question is, Do you want to share resources
                    >to build a system that would be useful for several groups (such as
                    >OneVillage, GlobalVillages, Minciu Sodas and others)? If yes, then I
                    >can make an extra effort to work for you and with you, sometimes for
                    >free, sometimes for modest pay. If no, then probably I should stop
                    >trying! and perhaps we might reconsider when we are both further
                    >along in our work.

                    I think that both of you should re-evaluate the fact that you are trying
                    something of great significance. The more you understand that, the more we
                    will enjoy the results. Andrius is dealing with information flows in
                    virtual communities and the ways they are vital and effective. Marcin is
                    focussing on his "thing", making material production truly sustainable and
                    available again. Please keep in mind that you have different workpackages,
                    but in a larger picture they are bound to work together.

                    At least I hope so.

                    Franz
                  • marcin@steaky.org
                    Andrius, The global dimension, temporally and spatially, is the source of wisdom and results that work. All that needs to be done is to collect these results
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 28, 2004
                      Andrius,

                      The global dimension, temporally and spatially, is the source of wisdom
                      and results that work. All that needs to be done is to collect these
                      results and implement them locally. Adaptability may or may not be easy,
                      depending on local resources and resourcefulness. I believe that i have
                      not much new to offer, only a synthesis of that which has been proven to
                      work. The key question on adaptability is to identify at what level
                      different solutions are applicable locally. Our organization does not
                      promote nonglobal village mentality. And of course, it's about investing
                      in people. They make up our organization.

                      I am interested in developing an integrated platform for information and
                      collaboration management for our organization. This takes an assessment of
                      what's out there, complilation and documentation of available components,
                      and a development program for the missing pieces. And this platform needs
                      to be adopted to specific projects, mostly involving synthesis of
                      available global solutions and wisdoms. I am looking for an integrated
                      program more than a piecemeal approach. I believe a significant number of
                      groups can adopt such an integrated platform for their use. I've heard you
                      and others mention many pieces that could fit here, but i have not yet
                      heard an integrated proposal that involves both an ICT approach and a
                      route to filling in content. Using available ICT technologies, integrated
                      into a comprehensive package, i think that we should focus on content,
                      given that a tool is of no use until it is applied to something. One may,
                      on the other hand,say that without tools, we couldn't collect content. It
                      depends on one's perspective. I propose focusing on results, since that is
                      a test of commitment to specific goals.

                      Marcin


                      On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, minciusodas
                      wrote:

                      > Hi Marcin,
                      >
                      > Thank you for your letter.
                      >
                      > I don't understand how you fit together the local and the global. It
                      > almost seems that you don't need a global dimension for your
                      > projects - they stand on their own locally. The only purpose of a
                      > global society seems to be to share results of what works locally.
                      > That seems to imply that conditions around the world are very similar
                      > and it is straightforward to adapt solutions from one place to
                      > another.
                      >
                      > My experience is that, around the world, there is much more in common
                      > between people than between their situations. For example, Wisconsin
                      > is one of the wealthiest places in the world. Transferring solutions
                      > from Wisconsin to Lithuania is almost like transfering them from
                      > Monaco to Calcutta. Especially if our interest is self-
                      > sustainability, which very much depends on the local situation. What
                      > is constructive activity in one land may be quite destructive in
                      > another, and vice versa.
                      >
                      > Personally - practically and theoretically - I place a lot of hope in
                      > the global economy. (I think our working together is a small piece
                      > of that). It might be argued that the progress of civilization has
                      > come from the ability of people to work together across greater and
                      > greater barriers. In a global world, I don't understand how you can
                      > have viable "local" business models if they don't rely on global
                      > teams. Unless perhaps you live in a very wealthy country that can
                      > exploit other countries (and migrants, etc.) without having to think
                      > much about it. Also, I don't understand why I (as a "nonlocal"
                      > expert) would want to invest myself in a "local" community that
                      > wanted to disconnect with me as soon as it could. A local solution
                      > perhaps would be to pay a local expert a local wage.
                      >
                      > I have been thinking (and speaking with Kim Veltman) about how to
                      > organize the collection (for each key participant) of key words, key
                      > ideas, patterns and their relationships. But again I think this is
                      > about investing in people. I think as a person you have a great
                      > future, but I think many of your solutions are wrong. (And at this
                      > stage isn't it to be expected that most of your solutions are
                      > incomplete or wrong?) So why would I invest myself in
                      > your "solutions"? if you are going to abandon them. Wouldn't it be
                      > more reasonable to invest myself in you as a person?
                      >
                      > These next few weeks I have to focus on paying clients. I am also
                      > traveling (Friday to Brussels, then London, then Wales). I apologize
                      > I am not prompt in responding.
                      >
                      > Marcin, I suppose a key question is, Do you want to share resources
                      > to build a system that would be useful for several groups (such as
                      > OneVillage, GlobalVillages, Minciu Sodas and others)? If yes, then I
                      > can make an extra effort to work for you and with you, sometimes for
                      > free, sometimes for modest pay. If no, then probably I should stop
                      > trying! and perhaps we might reconsider when we are both further
                      > along in our work.
                      >
                      > A note to all: I have set up Lucid Fried Eggs (a Brain-like wiki by
                      > Stephen Danic) and am trying to understand how to customize it for
                      > our various communities (I have had some obstacles). I will set that
                      > up to work with WOW. I have asked for a faster server and that
                      > should be set up within a week.
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      >
                      > Andrius
                      >
                      > Andrius Kulikauskas
                      > Minciu Sodas
                      > http;//www.ms.lt
                      > ms@...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, marcin@s... wrote:
                      > > Andrius,
                      > >
                      > > That's essentially right. The inherent part of the work for me is
                      > not to
                      > > focus on a social process with the remote community, which is a
                      > virtual
                      > > social activity, but a local process where people are getting
                      > trained and
                      > > jobs are being created. All based on knowledge from all over the
                      > earth.
                      > > All towards providing human needs locally- food, housing,
                      > education,
                      > > physical needs, security needs, renunciation needs, and so forth,
                      > but
                      > > starting with basic needs. Our physical infrastructures are to be
                      > healed.
                      > >
                      > > This sounds flaky, but the bottom line is the bottom line. The
                      > teleology
                      > > is clear: viable economic models for open source economic
                      > development,
                      > > using practical tools, adhering to measurable results.
                      > >
                      > > On experts: we are not looking for process but for ' results,'
                      > namely,
                      > > technical operationalization knowhow. We aim to start a local
                      > process
                      > > using these results. The key is real local projects, whose
                      > philosophy and
                      > > implementation can be adapted to any area of the world, using their
                      > local
                      > > resources. People anywhere have the same basic, as well as higher,
                      > needs.
                      > > We aim to generate the experts locally.
                      > >
                      > > Marcin
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On
                      > > Thu, 22 Jul 2004, minciusodas wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Hi Marcin,
                      > > >
                      > > > I am thinking about your requirements. I am extracting and
                      > restating
                      > > > your statements - please correct me!
                      > > >
                      > > > You want to organize the knowledge by which we can
                      > be "productive"
                      > > > members of society. But this does not mean that we need
                      > > > more "things". It means that we need them to be nourishing, and
                      > > > especially for the infrastructure to nourish us at every step.
                      > > >
                      > > > You want to:
                      > > > 1) collect information on the state of the art
                      > > > 2) apply that information in your pilot projects
                      > > > 3) organize all of that information so that it is easy to access
                      > > >
                      > > > You want an open working together. You favor a bootstrapping
                      > method
                      > > > where each step in each activity brings its own clear, direct
                      > value.
                      > > > This allows participants to focus more on the particular work
                      > they
                      > > > choose to do. You work especially with participants who are of
                      > high
                      > > > and growing consciousness.
                      > > >
                      > > > You want to also document the best tools for your work, and make
                      > that
                      > > > available.
                      > > >
                      > > > Is this summary OK?
                      > > >
                      > > > I have thoughts on it. Basically, I agree that it is crucial
                      > that
                      > > > each step be spiritually nourishing - and this is I think a key
                      > part
                      > > > of the information. It is the "data field" that is the common
                      > thread
                      > > > in all the data. Another key part is the physical effect. So
                      > our
                      > > > repository should show how they are intertwined. This
                      > intertwining
                      > > > is how there can be bootstrapping (or growing resonance) between
                      > the
                      > > > physical and the spiritual. It is a key aspect to be mindful of,
                      > to
                      > > > learn and master. Likewise, in the "division of labor" for
                      > > > assembling the information, each step needs to be its own reward,
                      > and
                      > > > give some value directly to the one doing it. This is the
                      > principle
                      > > > behind the diagram I have drawn.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think that a key point to consider is that often the best way
                      > to
                      > > > find information is to find the expert and converse with them.
                      > This
                      > > > is an opportunity to make much of the information process a
                      > > > worthwhile investment in the sense of nourishing the spirit. We
                      > > > might consider how to make such queries mutually beneficial. It
                      > can
                      > > > be, for example, part of the business model to honor those who
                      > are
                      > > > helping with their knowledge. That might be through an alternate
                      > > > currency. I think that effective information systems need to be
                      > at
                      > > > least half human, otherwise we are running in mental mazes trying
                      > to
                      > > > avoid each other, it is an anti-social, anti-learning outlook.
                      > > >
                      > > > Also, the state of the art for "tools for thinking" is very low.
                      > On
                      > > > the other hand, it is not difficult to create useful tools from
                      > > > scratch. The problem is discovering the usage patterns that
                      > really
                      > > > work, and also finding an effective division of labor for your
                      > > > community.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thinking,
                      > > >
                      > > > Andrius
                      > > >
                      > > > Andrius Kulikauskas
                      > > > Minciu Sodas
                      > > > http://www.ms.lt
                      > > > ms@m...
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > the rest is from Marcin's letters
                      > > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > At least internally at OSE, i'm interested in defining the state
                      > of
                      > > > the art in software tools that can be utilized.
                      > > >
                      > > > (1) the ability to collect the information- i see here the need
                      > to
                      > > > implement a collaboration platform. I see a masterminded
                      > skeleton,
                      > > > with content filled in an open source way by numerous
                      > contribution.
                      > > > The main challenge here is to establish the legitimacy of such a
                      > > > project to foster wide input.
                      > > >
                      > > > (2) The ability to implement the information. We are acquiring
                      > > > 50 acres for a full research campus with experimental labs,
                      > > > agriculture operations, building demonstrators, so forth.
                      > Moreover,
                      > > > for business models, legal, and financial knowhow, we are
                      > generating
                      > > > students who are demonstrating their abilities by taking concrete
                      > > > steps towards startup of ethical enterprise as a requirement for
                      > > > graduation.
                      > > >
                      > > > (3) The ability to organize the information. What tools can we
                      > use
                      > > > here? Overall, the goal is having state of the art procedural and
                      > > > technical information access at one's fingertips. Things like:
                      > how do
                      > > > i structure my corporation legally to handle donations for
                      > placing
                      > > > landholdings for the benefit of the public; where do i get my
                      > seeds?
                      > > > How do i design a closed loop water system for my house? Where
                      > are
                      > > > the manufacturing blueprints for a wind generator? So this
                      > includes
                      > > > open source technology, items such as open source photovoltaics
                      > > > production, and others.
                      > > >
                      > > > Key here is information access: indexical environments, visual
                      > > > representation, databasing, expert systems, multimedia
                      > generation,
                      > > > etc. I see a CMapTools map with links to multimedia on hammering
                      > a
                      > > > nail into a wall; a website that shows the economic analysis of a
                      > > > housing development; name of key person who can help and is most
                      > > > committed to the open-sourcing of information; distilled
                      > instructions
                      > > > on the steps required to set up a telco in Crete; etc. I see some
                      > > > tool like TheBrain, and some features of FreeMind.
                      > > >
                      > > > On the technical support front, the clear definition of tools to
                      > be
                      > > > used is important for replicability. That is: what are the tools,
                      > how
                      > > > do we acquire them and install them, and how do we learn them.
                      > This
                      > > > should all be at our fingertips. Of course, this changes
                      > dynamically,
                      > > > but so far i have not seen a one-stop-shop for gaining distilled
                      > > > perspective, or expertism, without having to 'jump through hoops'
                      > of
                      > > > various professional schools or programs. We have a chance to
                      > change
                      > > > this, by collecting and distilling.
                      > > >
                      > > > Here are my thoughts: i have a hard time seeing a distributed
                      > effort
                      > > > succeeding in this. Missing is focus, because unless people can
                      > > > contribute their full attention, all other activities will
                      > interfere.
                      > > > That's why funding must come through the activity itself. That's
                      > the
                      > > > reason why i promote work on 'the means of production of goods
                      > and
                      > > > services.' As we learn, we are also producers; productive
                      > acticity
                      > > > has income. This is my bootstrapping finance model. For example,
                      > by
                      > > > open-sourcing our farm project, we are also getting paid by
                      > products
                      > > > we grow, as part of an integrated social marketing package that
                      > is
                      > > > also used to dedicate the funds to purchase local lands.
                      > > >
                      > > > ----------------------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > open knowhow is key. i see the need for training the ethical
                      > > > entrepreneurs to provide options of meeting human needs consistent
                      > > > with our deepest and truest needs. For example, we do not need
                      > more
                      > > > food in the USA. We need real food, quality food, with a
                      > corresponding
                      > > > infrastructure that nourishes the human spirit at all steps. That
                      > > > vision requires hard technical expertise.
                      > > >
                      > > > Most key in this is the capacity to gather and organize the
                      > knowledge
                      > > > necessary to become a productive member of society. The key
                      > assumption
                      > > > that i hold: Physical needs are first. Physical needs means the
                      > > > products of human production infrastructures (production of
                      > products,
                      > > > ideas, education, infrastructures...). i am referring to the
                      > > > infrastructure in society which makes many people unhappy in the
                      > > > process of providing human needs. focus on the whole process of
                      > > > manufacturing the physical human environment. means of
                      > production
                      > > > includes technology, law, finance, organizational issues. efforts
                      > are
                      > > > based on improving the provision of goods and services
                      > > >
                      > > > Ethical entrepreneurs - that's the job of, say 1 or so percent of
                      > > > society. They participate in networking, organizational, and
                      > > > political life. OSE is interested in generating them. They
                      > further
                      > > > migrate into the upper two classes: the global and local finance
                      > > > capital. Most people lead 'normal lives,' and have no interest in
                      > > > a post-autistic economy.
                      > > >
                      > > > -----------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > What format were you considering? Can CMapTools be utilized? What
                      > > > about FreeMind? What about any other neural network?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Franz Nahrada
                      marcin@steaky.org wrote ... But I think this is exactly what Andrius is looking for. The many pieces should come together and form a toolbox that allows us
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 28, 2004
                        marcin@... wrote

                        >I am looking for an integrated
                        >program more than a piecemeal approach. I believe a significant number of
                        >groups can adopt such an integrated platform for their use. I've heard
                        >you
                        >and others mention many pieces that could fit here, but i have not yet
                        >heard an integrated proposal that involves both an ICT approach and a
                        >route to filling in content. Using available ICT technologies, integrated
                        >into a comprehensive package, i think that we should focus on content,
                        >given that a tool is of no use until it is applied to something. One may,
                        >on the other hand,say that without tools, we couldn't collect content. It
                        >depends on one's perspective. I propose focusing on results, since that
                        >is
                        >a test of commitment to specific goals.

                        But I think this is exactly what Andrius is looking for. The "many pieces"
                        should come together and form a toolbox that allows us to treat each
                        phase and modality of the knowledge generation process in an appropriate
                        way.

                        I think it is a myth that technology by itself can handle content; we need
                        tools for humans, that really help them support the collection,
                        distillation,
                        refinement of information towards knowledge and wisdom.

                        Andrius has presented us the first liveable example of a truly integrative
                        way in dealing with content. His approach is simple and elegant.

                        - We need a way people can occasionaly pitch in - the best way to do that
                        is mailinglists, chats etc.
                        - We need a way to digest the content which is distributed by mailinglists
                        -
                        wikis are great systems of raw order. Databases are another, yet limited
                        by standardisation.
                        - We need to structure information which is available on Wikis or webpages-
                        brain or similar tols help us publish our personal brainwork
                        - we need to present information in an elegant stable form - HyperCard
                        or similar webtop tools allow us even to merge information with search
                        intelligence, allowing us "context windows"

                        Andrius is working on this big picture, and he needs content and serious
                        communities to make it happen. Things are not ready at the beginning, but
                        I think its an exciting opportunity to be part of the development.

                        Franz
                      • minciusodas
                        Marcin, Thank you for your thoughtful and patient letters, I think I am growing in my understanding of your needs. Franz, Thank you for your great
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 29, 2004
                          Marcin,

                          Thank you for your thoughtful and patient letters, I think I am
                          growing in my understanding of your needs. Franz, Thank you for your
                          great helpfulness.

                          Next week I hope to remake my diagram. Actually, it will become
                          several diagrams - wider and narrower views. I will be able to show
                          more steps, and how the bigger pieces fit together. In particular, I
                          will note the technology that I think we need for each step -
                          sometimes a YahooGroup is enough, sometimes we need 1 or 2 days of
                          programming (in PHP or Python etc.) to get what we need, sometimes I
                          want to build on an existing tool (like open source Lucid Fried
                          Eggs). And I hope to list the minuses (like TheBrain is good but at
                          some point we would want open source alternatives). I hope this will
                          help make it all more concrete.

                          I also hope to write a vision for setting up an Open Self-Learning
                          program which might perhaps be central for your Institute on your
                          farm. I will be writing a Grundtvig 1 proposal for this focused on
                          self-education for "global village leaders". If that would work for
                          you, then that would make it very attractive for me to dedicate a lot
                          of energy towards that onsite and offsite. I hope that might be the
                          principal reason for me to come, and technology be primarily a
                          supporting tool for that result. Then I would know what to do!

                          About results - I think that fostering sound motivation is perhaps
                          one of the greatest results. I am very happy to share a letter of
                          appreciation from Charles Lwanga Mubiru Asanti, a Ugandan priest who
                          is pursuing his Ph.D. in theology, questions of fostering
                          conscience. (Fostering conscience (and love) is perhaps the ultimate
                          cure and response for AIDS, the basis for the AIDS economy). I know
                          that Charles is much closer and more central than I in the AIDS
                          challenge, and so I am very happy if I might serve him, just as he
                          serves his villagers. And it is Bala Pillai's longstanding interest
                          in alternative currencies that brought me to Bad Honnef, and it is
                          OneVillage.Biz bold vision that brought me to ask Charles how we
                          might help. I think that these are results in themselves, and also
                          this is how many other results come about. If I remember correctly,
                          Charles is interested in solar energy as a way to provide electricity
                          for computers in the village. I am glad that Charles is here with us
                          at this discussion.

                          About technology - I think most important is to choose not
                          the "current best of breed" but rather a technology that we want to
                          invest in. I am very happy with Lucid Fried Eggs, it is a Brain-
                          inspired wiki (in PHP and MySQL) that I want to delve into. It is
                          also very straightforward to layout and customize as you like. So I
                          have set it up for ProdigalArt.org see:
                          http://www.prodigalart.org/wiki/
                          (I share my letter to Amanda's discussion group)
                          but you can also see an entirely different version at
                          http://www.ms.lt/wiki/
                          and finally note that we can keep the same content and switch between
                          layouts, allowing us to switch between sourceopen, globalvillages,
                          onevillage, minciusodas, etc.
                          There are many features to add - this is a tool that I personally
                          want to develop further. It also fits nicely with TheBrain and WOW.

                          Peace,

                          Andrius

                          Andrius Kulikauskas
                          Minciu Sodas
                          http://www.ms.lt
                          ms@...



                          --------------------------------------------------------


                          Appreciation!

                          Hallo Andrius,
                          I am Charles, a Ugandan studen you met in Bad Honnef a
                          couple of days a go during your seminar on CC. It was
                          a pleasure to meet you. I appreciate your efforts in
                          trying to make our world a better place to live in.
                          Our meeting was by chance, but a blessing for me. Your
                          ideas were so challenging. Ever since, I am thinking
                          more intensely on how to ammeliorate the lives of my
                          people back home. I might not be able to influence a
                          change in the 25 millions of the Ugandan population,
                          but at least I shall first concentrate on the simple
                          people of my village.
                          May God bless your efforts.
                          Yours,
                          Charles.

                          Charles Lwanga Mubiru Asanti


                          --------------------------------------------------------


                          Hello Kimberly, Deepanker and all!

                          Amanda - Great to see discussion start so quickly!

                          My name is Andrius Kulikauskas and I lead the Minciu Sodas laboratory
                          http://www.ms.lt serving and organizing independent thinkers. Amanda
                          has engaged our services these last two months for global team-
                          building to help ProdigalArt.Org get off the ground.

                          Amanda and all - I have set up a wiki at
                          http://www.prodigalart.org/wiki/
                          where we can start the online system for ProdigalArt.org

                          This is a particular wiki technology called Lucid Fried Eggs which I
                          like because it allows pages to be related in distinct ways (inspired
                          by TheBrain http://www.thebrain.com where "child, parent, sibling,
                          jump" relationships are used). Furthermore, Lucid's appearance can
                          easily be changed (Amanda, we could work on this next week).
                          (Compare with http://www.ms.lt/wiki/ ) This means that we can frame
                          the meaning. So - in the spirit of Amanda's mission statement - I am
                          thinking of each page as a "flow" (which might be an artist,
                          caretaker, art work, location, etc.) and they can be broader,
                          narrower, intersecting, parallel, etc.

                          Currently, it is very slow - (it is on an old Pentium 120) but we are
                          moving to a new server (15 times faster and 15 times more memory)
                          this coming week. Also, there is a data issue - so please don't put
                          up anything yet that you don't want erased - we may start fresh next
                          week. But feel free to play around.

                          A next step would be to structure the wiki pages to start
                          implementing the system as described at:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/minciu_sodas_en/message/4304
                          http://www.prodigalart.org/design/prodigalart.gif
                          (and as we adapt to your vision).

                          Amanda - thank you for bringing us your fantastic project! Please
                          let me know (as at the end of every month) if we'll continue for the
                          next month or wait for the next.

                          Hello to all - and I look forward to learning how ProdigalArt.org
                          might help us share art and our care for it.

                          I will be traveling through Brussels this weekend but it looks like I
                          have a stable place to work from all next week in London.

                          Peace,

                          Andrius

                          Andrius Kulikauskas
                          Minciu Sodas
                          http://www.ms.lt
                          ms@m...
                          from Maastricht, The Netherlands



                          --------------------------------------------------------


                          --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, marcin@s... wrote:
                          > Andrius,
                          >
                          > The global dimension, temporally and spatially, is the source of
                          wisdom
                          > and results that work. All that needs to be done is to collect
                          these
                          > results and implement them locally. Adaptability may or may not be
                          easy,
                          > depending on local resources and resourcefulness. I believe that i
                          have
                          > not much new to offer, only a synthesis of that which has been
                          proven to
                          > work. The key question on adaptability is to identify at what level
                          > different solutions are applicable locally. Our organization does
                          not
                          > promote nonglobal village mentality. And of course, it's about
                          investing
                          > in people. They make up our organization.
                          >
                          > I am interested in developing an integrated platform for
                          information and
                          > collaboration management for our organization. This takes an
                          assessment of
                          > what's out there, complilation and documentation of available
                          components,
                          > and a development program for the missing pieces. And this platform
                          needs
                          > to be adopted to specific projects, mostly involving synthesis of
                          > available global solutions and wisdoms. I am looking for an
                          integrated
                          > program more than a piecemeal approach. I believe a significant
                          number of
                          > groups can adopt such an integrated platform for their use. I've
                          heard you
                          > and others mention many pieces that could fit here, but i have not
                          yet
                          > heard an integrated proposal that involves both an ICT approach and
                          a
                          > route to filling in content. Using available ICT technologies,
                          integrated
                          > into a comprehensive package, i think that we should focus on
                          content,
                          > given that a tool is of no use until it is applied to something.
                          One may,
                          > on the other hand,say that without tools, we couldn't collect
                          content. It
                          > depends on one's perspective. I propose focusing on results, since
                          that is
                          > a test of commitment to specific goals.
                          >
                          > Marcin
                        • marcin@steaky.org
                          Andrius, What are the tools available today for information and collaboration management, and how do you see them fitting together? You are delving deeply into
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 29, 2004
                            Andrius,

                            What are the tools available today for information and collaboration
                            management, and how do you see them fitting together? You are delving
                            deeply into various software solutions, and i would like to hear an
                            overview of what exists and what needs to be done. Do you have any papers
                            on that?

                            How is Lucid Fried Eggs like TheBrain? Where are the internet-shareable
                            concept maps?

                            Marcin


                            On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, minciusodas wrote:

                            > Marcin,
                            >
                            > Thank you for your thoughtful and patient letters, I think I am
                            > growing in my understanding of your needs. Franz, Thank you for your
                            > great helpfulness.
                            >
                            > Next week I hope to remake my diagram. Actually, it will become
                            > several diagrams - wider and narrower views. I will be able to show
                            > more steps, and how the bigger pieces fit together. In particular, I
                            > will note the technology that I think we need for each step -
                            > sometimes a YahooGroup is enough, sometimes we need 1 or 2 days of
                            > programming (in PHP or Python etc.) to get what we need, sometimes I
                            > want to build on an existing tool (like open source Lucid Fried
                            > Eggs). And I hope to list the minuses (like TheBrain is good but at
                            > some point we would want open source alternatives). I hope this will
                            > help make it all more concrete.
                            >
                            > I also hope to write a vision for setting up an Open Self-Learning
                            > program which might perhaps be central for your Institute on your
                            > farm. I will be writing a Grundtvig 1 proposal for this focused on
                            > self-education for "global village leaders". If that would work for
                            > you, then that would make it very attractive for me to dedicate a lot
                            > of energy towards that onsite and offsite. I hope that might be the
                            > principal reason for me to come, and technology be primarily a
                            > supporting tool for that result. Then I would know what to do!
                            >
                            > About results - I think that fostering sound motivation is perhaps
                            > one of the greatest results. I am very happy to share a letter of
                            > appreciation from Charles Lwanga Mubiru Asanti, a Ugandan priest who
                            > is pursuing his Ph.D. in theology, questions of fostering
                            > conscience. (Fostering conscience (and love) is perhaps the ultimate
                            > cure and response for AIDS, the basis for the AIDS economy). I know
                            > that Charles is much closer and more central than I in the AIDS
                            > challenge, and so I am very happy if I might serve him, just as he
                            > serves his villagers. And it is Bala Pillai's longstanding interest
                            > in alternative currencies that brought me to Bad Honnef, and it is
                            > OneVillage.Biz bold vision that brought me to ask Charles how we
                            > might help. I think that these are results in themselves, and also
                            > this is how many other results come about. If I remember correctly,
                            > Charles is interested in solar energy as a way to provide electricity
                            > for computers in the village. I am glad that Charles is here with us
                            > at this discussion.
                            >
                            > About technology - I think most important is to choose not
                            > the "current best of breed" but rather a technology that we want to
                            > invest in. I am very happy with Lucid Fried Eggs, it is a Brain-
                            > inspired wiki (in PHP and MySQL) that I want to delve into. It is
                            > also very straightforward to layout and customize as you like. So I
                            > have set it up for ProdigalArt.org see:
                            > http://www.prodigalart.org/wiki/
                            > (I share my letter to Amanda's discussion group)
                            > but you can also see an entirely different version at
                            > http://www.ms.lt/wiki/
                            > and finally note that we can keep the same content and switch between
                            > layouts, allowing us to switch between sourceopen, globalvillages,
                            > onevillage, minciusodas, etc.
                            > There are many features to add - this is a tool that I personally
                            > want to develop further. It also fits nicely with TheBrain and WOW.
                            >
                            > Peace,
                            >
                            > Andrius
                            >
                            > Andrius Kulikauskas
                            > Minciu Sodas
                            > http://www.ms.lt
                            > ms@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            > Appreciation!
                            >
                            > Hallo Andrius,
                            > I am Charles, a Ugandan studen you met in Bad Honnef a
                            > couple of days a go during your seminar on CC. It was
                            > a pleasure to meet you. I appreciate your efforts in
                            > trying to make our world a better place to live in.
                            > Our meeting was by chance, but a blessing for me. Your
                            > ideas were so challenging. Ever since, I am thinking
                            > more intensely on how to ammeliorate the lives of my
                            > people back home. I might not be able to influence a
                            > change in the 25 millions of the Ugandan population,
                            > but at least I shall first concentrate on the simple
                            > people of my village.
                            > May God bless your efforts.
                            > Yours,
                            > Charles.
                            >
                            > Charles Lwanga Mubiru Asanti
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Kimberly, Deepanker and all!
                            >
                            > Amanda - Great to see discussion start so quickly!
                            >
                            > My name is Andrius Kulikauskas and I lead the Minciu Sodas laboratory
                            > http://www.ms.lt serving and organizing independent thinkers. Amanda
                            > has engaged our services these last two months for global team-
                            > building to help ProdigalArt.Org get off the ground.
                            >
                            > Amanda and all - I have set up a wiki at
                            > http://www.prodigalart.org/wiki/
                            > where we can start the online system for ProdigalArt.org
                            >
                            > This is a particular wiki technology called Lucid Fried Eggs which I
                            > like because it allows pages to be related in distinct ways (inspired
                            > by TheBrain http://www.thebrain.com where "child, parent, sibling,
                            > jump" relationships are used). Furthermore, Lucid's appearance can
                            > easily be changed (Amanda, we could work on this next week).
                            > (Compare with http://www.ms.lt/wiki/ ) This means that we can frame
                            > the meaning. So - in the spirit of Amanda's mission statement - I am
                            > thinking of each page as a "flow" (which might be an artist,
                            > caretaker, art work, location, etc.) and they can be broader,
                            > narrower, intersecting, parallel, etc.
                            >
                            > Currently, it is very slow - (it is on an old Pentium 120) but we are
                            > moving to a new server (15 times faster and 15 times more memory)
                            > this coming week. Also, there is a data issue - so please don't put
                            > up anything yet that you don't want erased - we may start fresh next
                            > week. But feel free to play around.
                            >
                            > A next step would be to structure the wiki pages to start
                            > implementing the system as described at:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/minciu_sodas_en/message/4304
                            > http://www.prodigalart.org/design/prodigalart.gif
                            > (and as we adapt to your vision).
                            >
                            > Amanda - thank you for bringing us your fantastic project! Please
                            > let me know (as at the end of every month) if we'll continue for the
                            > next month or wait for the next.
                            >
                            > Hello to all - and I look forward to learning how ProdigalArt.org
                            > might help us share art and our care for it.
                            >
                            > I will be traveling through Brussels this weekend but it looks like I
                            > have a stable place to work from all next week in London.
                            >
                            > Peace,
                            >
                            > Andrius
                            >
                            > Andrius Kulikauskas
                            > Minciu Sodas
                            > http://www.ms.lt
                            > ms@m...
                            > from Maastricht, The Netherlands
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, marcin@s... wrote:
                            > > Andrius,
                            > >
                            > > The global dimension, temporally and spatially, is the source of
                            > wisdom
                            > > and results that work. All that needs to be done is to collect
                            > these
                            > > results and implement them locally. Adaptability may or may not be
                            > easy,
                            > > depending on local resources and resourcefulness. I believe that i
                            > have
                            > > not much new to offer, only a synthesis of that which has been
                            > proven to
                            > > work. The key question on adaptability is to identify at what level
                            > > different solutions are applicable locally. Our organization does
                            > not
                            > > promote nonglobal village mentality. And of course, it's about
                            > investing
                            > > in people. They make up our organization.
                            > >
                            > > I am interested in developing an integrated platform for
                            > information and
                            > > collaboration management for our organization. This takes an
                            > assessment of
                            > > what's out there, complilation and documentation of available
                            > components,
                            > > and a development program for the missing pieces. And this platform
                            > needs
                            > > to be adopted to specific projects, mostly involving synthesis of
                            > > available global solutions and wisdoms. I am looking for an
                            > integrated
                            > > program more than a piecemeal approach. I believe a significant
                            > number of
                            > > groups can adopt such an integrated platform for their use. I've
                            > heard you
                            > > and others mention many pieces that could fit here, but i have not
                            > yet
                            > > heard an integrated proposal that involves both an ICT approach and
                            > a
                            > > route to filling in content. Using available ICT technologies,
                            > integrated
                            > > into a comprehensive package, i think that we should focus on
                            > content,
                            > > given that a tool is of no use until it is applied to something.
                            > One may,
                            > > on the other hand,say that without tools, we couldn't collect
                            > content. It
                            > > depends on one's perspective. I propose focusing on results, since
                            > that is
                            > > a test of commitment to specific goals.
                            > >
                            > > Marcin
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Paul S Prueitt
                            The discussions in global village, yahoogroups e-forum, is one of several very high quality discussions there the leading members of the forum are focused on
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 30, 2004
                              The discussions in global village, yahoogroups e-forum, is one of several very high quality discussions there the leading members of the forum are focused on leadership in thought leading to new types of collaboration and problem solving directed at global concerns.
                               
                              In some recent work, I have been close to mapping the real time social discourse
                               
                               
                              for the purpose of moving individuals in and out of discussions, a Glass Bead Game of sorts.
                               
                               
                              Wiki and TheBrain are precursors to what some are calling the "Anticipatory Web" where complex scholarship can be experienced as part of emergent collective intelligence.
                               
                              My recent work in a Visual Chat environment was focused on moving individuals into "rooms", or locations where discussion can take place in complex dimensions.
                               
                              We have all experienced the messages into a forum that trigger simple memetic responses, and lead to behavior that inhibits the natural evolution of the social discourse.  These messages have to be filtered so that they do not disrupt the resonance that is possible at the core, or inner circle, of a Glass Bead Game:
                               
                               
                              I have written some about this at:
                               
                               
                              in the context of MUDs (Multiple User Domains/dungeons).
                               
                               
                              I must say that open source anticipatory technology is almost completely implemented, but that cultural problems in the visual chat environments, and in e-forums make the integration of many social discourse processes as yet beyond our reach.
                               
                              Mapping the social expression in many weblogs seems to be where the next step might occur, but I have not been able to get my resources around a system for global harvesting and then re-expression of the thematic map of what is being posted in weblogs (everywhere). 
                               
                               
                               
                               
                            • Lucas Gonzalez Santa Cruz
                              Paul Jargon allows for condensed expression of complex ideas, but it also makes it difficult for me to feel sure I understand those ideas. (English is only my
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 30, 2004
                                Paul

                                Jargon allows for condensed expression of complex ideas, but it also
                                makes it difficult for me to feel sure I understand those ideas.
                                (English is only my second language, and I gladly accept some ideas are
                                not at all easy (or possible) to express in "core-English". :-))

                                If I grasp it correctly, you're trying to "understand" (make a model of)
                                the ideas that are circulated through the internet (how? recording
                                what's said on IRC? harvesting blogs? inviting conversations that are
                                recorded in your own site?), as a way to *see* (and show) what's going
                                on (a drawing of ideas and connections between ideas), and maybe try and
                                influence that public conversation.

                                If we people have views of the world that in turn make us fight each
                                other to death, then you want to analyse those views and maybe
                                inactivate the killing. It's an important thing to do, but I don't
                                understand exactly how you plan to do it, or how others might help you.

                                You're trying to develop a game, maybe with commercial value, where
                                players bring in their ideas on a topic, and then the ideas are linked,
                                creating a "story" (idea A leads to idea B, maybe not because temporal
                                relationship but because of some logical or pedagogical relationship).

                                Do I understand it more or less correctly? Or am I totally off-track?

                                One thing I half-see is that people who will play the game will
                                naturally become less "radical", but they were probably not too
                                "radical" in the first place. ("Radical" here means "possessed by a
                                simplex meme", owner/owned by an idea that doesn't accept other ideas
                                are possible.) So what is gained?

                                Or maybe players play in public view, so that the tv-audience can see
                                what's being enacted and say "oh, those are *my* ideas and feelings" ...
                                and in a short while those ideas are shown in the context of the other
                                alternative ideas. A bit like when a person with stones in his urinary
                                tract is operated, and finally gets to see the stones outside his body,
                                and says "ah, this is what I had inside! Now I can see it and not just
                                feel it".

                                Perhaps it would help us all if you could write a story with people
                                playing the game. If I'm slowing you down, please do ignore me. But I
                                feel the ideas might be more powerful if "translated".

                                Thanks!

                                Lucas

                                ----- Mensaje Original -----
                                De: "Paul S Prueitt" <paul@...>
                                Fecha: Viernes, 30 de Julio, 2004 2:37 pmh
                                Asunto: RE: [globalvillages] Re: for Marcin: a system for self-learning

                                > The discussions in global village, yahoogroups e-forum, is one of
                                > severalvery high quality discussions there the leading members of
                                > the forum are
                                > focused on leadership in thought leading to new types of
                                > collaboration and
                                > problem solving directed at global concerns.
                                >
                                > In some recent work, I have been close to mapping the real time social
                                > discourse
                                >
                                > http://www.bcngroup.or
                                >
                                > for the purpose of moving individuals in and out of discussions, a
                                > GlassBead Game of sorts.
                                >
                                > http://www.ontologystream.co
                                >
                                >
                                > Wiki and TheBrain are precursors to what some are calling the
                                > "AnticipatoryWeb" where complex scholarship can be experienced as
                                > part of emergent
                                > collective intelligence.
                                >
                                > My recent work in a Visual Chat environment was focused on moving
                                > individuals into "rooms", or locations where discussion can take
                                > place in
                                > complex dimensions.
                                >
                                > We have all experienced the messages into a forum that trigger simple
                                > memetic responses, and lead to behavior that inhibits the natural
                                > evolutionof the social discourse. These messages have to be
                                > filtered so that they do
                                > not disrupt the resonance that is possible at the core, or inner
                                > circle, of
                                > a Glass Bead Game:
                                >
                                > http://www.bcngroup.org/site/beadgames/index.html
                                >
                                > I have written some about this at:
                                >
                                > http://www.bcngroup.org/manor/
                                >
                                > in the context of MUDs (Multiple User Domains/dungeons).
                                >
                                >
                                > I must say that open source anticipatory technology is almost
                                > completelyimplemented, but that cultural problems in the visual
                                > chat environments, and
                                > in e-forums make the integration of many social discourse
                                > processes as yet
                                > beyond our reach.
                                >
                                > Mapping the social expression in many weblogs seems to be where
                                > the next
                                > step might occur, but I have not been able to get my resources
                                > around a
                                > system for global harvesting and then re-expression of the
                                > thematic map of
                                > what is being posted in weblogs (everywhere).
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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