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Re: [globalvillages] Re: power vs. getting things done

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  • Benoit Couture
    Rick, To all the questions that you put before us, I say that with the right Pro-Motion (movement of uninterrupted YES) of the grass root, Ecoliving s function
    Message 1 of 35 , Sep 24, 2006
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      Rick,
       
      To all the questions that you put before us, I say that with the right Pro-Motion (movement of uninterrupted YES) of the grass root, Ecoliving's function can be contracted out by popular demand of democracy itself, to spearhead the Recovery Road for humanity from self-destruction to self-control and community self-government, from the opportunity that lies at the heart of the Aboriginal crisis, beginning in  Western Canada.  
      In your first reply to me last year Rick, you mentioned having been in Alberta for some time and having no success with the powers that be.  This is where I keep hoping that a model such as what I propose to embody would be irresistible so that the pendulum could return from the political right that you hit yourself against, to the center, where left and right can meet and work together.
      The current opportunity to tap into to spark the YES Pro-Motion is that, after having been Premier of Alberta for 15 years, Mr. Ralph Klein is going to lecture for three months at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington D.C. near the White House, starting very shortly.
      Why, during these 3 months of lecture of the former Alberta Premier in Washington, would there not be a connecting of the dots between Mr. Klein and Jeffrey Sachs and Chris Macrae and Bill Clinton and Al Gore to steer the fundings of the Recovery Road as I propose to embody?
      I for one, think that Minciu Sodas and all of its partners and affiliates are ready to respond and to assemble a team to ground the local-global emergency response to humanity's sustainability crisis. 
      The ignition of the launch is in the resolve of the Aboriginal plight, directly involving the French and English educational-correctional populations in siding along with one another for the socio-cultural transforming journey of econo-political dynamics from Alberta to Saskatchewan and Manitoba.
      Once solidly rooted with our documentation in hand on the initial scale of measures, we move to scale up the Pro-Motion with the docu-dramatization of what we've accomplished with the help of CBC-BBC-PBS in accordance to the educational dream being pursued with Be the Change movement.  
      Then the wave swings back to BC so as to bounce off the coast, sending the
      Pro-Motion to go North-South and from there, East to the rest of Canada while United States awakes to the reality offered by such a dream investment opportunity. 
      By then, the drive will be sufficiently grounded to invite the rest of the Americas, drawing along all of Europe in the recovery's focus and innovative building, while at the same time that the spreading from Canada to the whole of the Americas lights up, the remaining States like Russia, Japan, China and India join in the cause to reach Africa and the Middle-East with the socio-cultural developmental support of Health-Education-Correction.
       
      The main problem is not in finding solutions but on how to apply them in such a renewing way that each application is a step forward into the deployment that leaves behind the old ways. 
       
      So when it comes to the ideal ground where from Ecoliving's contract of Health-Education-Correction's can work from, are with the Restorative Justice of Western Canada going to serve in the jails, which are largely filled with a majority of Aboriginal people and coincidently, it cost twice as much to serve the Native population in jail as the other prisoners, according to an Elder whom I spoke with. 
      By working with them to restore their claim upon "Protectors of the land on behalf of Mother Earth" from jails to the reserves with modern offerings such the ones you have to offer Rick, along with Jeff/Joy, backed up by Andrius and Franz...
      Such a vision can go a long way in gaining the hearts and minds of the Aboriginal youth. 
      So it is in order to reach the critical mass needed with a settling effect of radiance as opposed to militancy, that I propose to take upon myself and my family to volunteer from my office of stay-at-home-dad-grand-dad-citizen-voter-taxpayer, and to walk on the The Recovery Road and to demonstrate the transformation that connects my office into the whole socio-cultural spectrum that it entails, which is no less than the connection of history and destiny of personal and communal living, known as democracy. 
      I can't help but to perceive that if I were to figure out how to convert my "criminal" debt to society into an investment of my gifts and talents for the rest my years on earth, that along with my case, we could make The Recovery Road appealing to the Protectors of the Earth with the modern Back To The Root offerings of Ecoling to pioneer with them Global Villages, from in the midst of their misery in jail to the little geography that they have left called "Reserves". 
      As long as there is no sudden jerking sequences rocking the boat and that the clarity of transparency is not compromised, I believe that most of the Canadian population is ready to assume the siding along shoulder to shoulder for such a lead of universal renewal. 
      Somehow, let's find the way to make the kind of noise that will connect with Mr. Klein and his time in Washington during the next 3 months, so that he can take on the job of voicing into being the Recovery Road from Alberta facilitating Aboriginal-Commonwealth-Francophony reconciliation, all the way to a united human race. 
       
      Benoit Couture   
       
       

      Richard Nelson <solaroof@...> wrote:
      Benoit, I appreciate your deep experience in the underground side of society, which is a mirror to the rest of society who resort to the force of Law because the value systems that we live by are corrupted our failure to lead from the heart and with compassion and empathy for others. Nobody should be made into a criminal but that is what you are saying is happening. And among them are true Robbin Hoods and Louis Riels (and each culture can name such heros) who could be recognized and enlisted as natural leaders to transition us out of our corruption and confussion and bring all into the light of clarity, transparency that can kill corruption and exploitation (as learned in SA) in a healing and restorative process.

      Who in our society has the capacity (and permission) to undertake such a soul searching transformational program to our justice and social agencies? Can small pilot programs be a way forward? Do we not need to recognize that the victims of social society's failures are not culapble for their plight; for their fight to live in a hostile, unproviding world. They are just like victims of natural disaster, but even worse since their trauma orginates with the acts and ommissions of fellow human beings.

      This is not to say that we distort our values (authentic and truth based values) and "get soft on criminals" - it is not easy work that looks like progress but is not. We need to change our mainstream reality because the underground society are people who have been excluded, marginalized and disrespected. They have been exploited and abused by our social services administration, often from a very early age. The wrong is in us as much as in this sort of "criminal" - and the truly "hardened" criminal has simply been in the system longer. No doubt there are some who's underlying problem is mental/emotional disorder but that would be a small fraction.

      The incarcerated population in the USA is larger then the University population and costs more than higher education. Therefore society is compounding the negative faster then we can cope - especially considering the strains and stresses of a dangerous climate of change. I speak out of empathy, you have the vantage point of both empathy and compassion and close contact. It is wonderful that you have offered to lead some kind of initiative where your values would be implemented, and certainly, as a social experiment this is valuable. We need new and really different approaches to these problems to be tried out - to explore potentials that may seem too upsidedown to those who are administratively bound up in the old patterns that ARE FAILING. Learning the way forward requires trial and error but error that is in search of real change is not wrong and is needs acceptance so that we can move forward along the path to solutions that work.

      This message and your message are long and very "dense" so I admit that I previously did not read some of your previous messages - but I understand that I must take the time to listen. Take the time to understand your concepts because they are inspired by your faith and your transparent need to act in service to those most in need. It is sad that the mainstream is not listening; sad that they are incapacitated - they look like they have all the power to make things (good things) happen -yet they don't know how to: learn, change, develop, grow, serve from the heart, be transparent, be real, be humans rather then administrators.

      Well, I face those same problems in my mission for bringing lifestyle change, which I call EcoLiving, which is intimately connected with very material things like our built environment and how we make it into a new ecological habitat. Who is listening to me? Who keeps me strong in championing this change? Not the mainstream building professions, government programs, nor the authoritative experts in this field (who like those in other domains are presiding over the disasterous results of years of wrong thinking and acting) - I am getting my personal sustainability from our growing networks of grass roots independent thinkers and pioneers of personal transformation. I love our groups and send out my best wishes to all those who are coming together to solve our own problems with our own initiative and the huge know how that is released by collaboration.

      We will begin to see the opportunities within the crisis (see this lecture by Gore) to respond with action on our proposed solutions. For example, with the cost of conventional imprisonment becoming so great and results being so poor, would there be a point where alternative services would be able to compete and offer a novel solution that would also satisfy the current administrative goals? This is similar to the opportunities for alternative energy that are increasing as the crisis with conventional energy deepens. We can have plans in our networks to be ready to act at the right time (which is probably now!) if we can have our solutions at least prototyped and tested to some degree.

      Again, the relavence to GlobalVillages is that the new pattern of living would remove the root causes of much of the social ills and create the right climate for change and personal transformation. Is this a possible capacity of such communities: to bring "offenders" into a village environment for a life restoring process of re-integration that is real, loving and sustainable? Could this be done successfully on a contract basis? What about fostering children in villages so that children in institutions (the large and growing problem in Romania, as a legacy of the Communist era) or aids orphans in Africa have a chance at a real life and are not forced into the underground economy of exploitation and abuse.

      With all the newly announced Billionphilanthopy is not the GlobalVillages pattern a desireable tool for re-ingineering social and justice services delivery?

      Rick

      Benoit Couture <benoitctr@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Dear Rick,
       
      I deeply appreciate your answer.  By your reply, I think that there is some good Sunday leading for us all in the Spirit, by connecting your answer to this thread here, along with
      http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cyfranogi/ message/1846   in order to witness some deep weaving of the web's opportunity that we are being worked into and for which we are working for, in accordance to this beautiful meal for the soul that your served me in your feedback, thanks again.
      Here's what might also be of interest for some furthert Sunday reading with the potential to help establish the connection between this one here, for a new kind of Sunday-Monday passage into Minciu Sodas's continuity to the maturity of history and destiny, in humanity's civilization development. .. 
       
       
       
       
      Best regards,
      Benoit

      Richard Nelson <solaroof@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Benoit these are inspiring stories. We do need examples and encouragment to see in the challenges of this conflicted world the true way of the spirit. I collaborate with Cannon Peter Challen (CCMJ) who included these quotes to me in a recent message. I think that they do relate to this subject of the special power of changemakers who connect with hearts:

      "Even when they call us mad, when they call us subversives and communists and all the epithets they put on us, we know we only preach the subversive witness of the Beatitudes, which have turned everything upside down" — Oscar Romero

      Our invitation as we go out into the world, is to lay down our fear and love the world. Lay down our sword and shield, and seek out the image of God's beloved in the people we find it hardest to love. Lay down our narrow self-interest, and heal the hurting and fill the hungry and set the prisoners free. Lay down our need for power and control, and bow to the image of God's beloved in the weakest, the poorest, and the most excluded.
      the first female Presiding Bishop-elect of the Episcopal Church, USA, Katharine Jefferts Schori




      Benoit <benoitctr@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Thank you Steve, Tom, Graham, Jeff and Andrius,

      This thread is becoming a work of art. Here we are, a bunch of
      males, moving from brain storming into a "mind rubbing" as brought
      to us by Pam and which Janet turns into pure joy of humor and wisdom
      together, and I quote:

      "Thanks so much, and great minds think alike (though is that the
      rub, haha?!),
      because I have been having the same questions and challenges at
      HH ... I'll be thinking out loud on this as well, and am sure that
      we can
      "rub-a-dub-dub" till we put some fire in our thinking "tub"!! All
      best wishes
      and to 100% virtual visibility, Janet." That was from:
      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/holistiche lping/message/ 339
      Then there is Jeff who added some Cherooke wisdom of the 2 fighting
      wolves within and of our responsability to decide which one we
      feed. http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/backtother oot/message/ 441

      My reply to Graham is at:
      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/globalvill ages/message/ 1608 and in my
      answer I offer my personal experience with the effects of power.
      The point I make in my reply is the difference between the love of
      power and the power of love and I seek to make sense to Graham by
      putting it in a context that he can relate to, namely, the presence
      of the Canadian armed forces being preceded in Afghanistan by the
      heart forces. To offer an example, I cite the Sir Paul MacCartney's
      concert in Russia as opposed to the cold war. The heart forces
      could be the deployment of sport and cultural means to attract the
      people into the peace making and development process.

      Andrius, I loved the 8 points you offer and the old lady's example.
      She sounds like my mom. because she did indeed move and spoke in
      such a way that "elephant may supply all the power that might be
      needed. Or a king. Or her village. Or an earthquake. Or the sun. Or
      a virus."
      Starting at 20 years old, she began raising 14 children. These
      children came at a rate of 9 in their first 10 years of marriage and
      then came 5 years of a God-given break, then came 5 more in the next
      6 years...he-ha. One washroom to serve everyone. It was a lot of
      fun at lunch time when everyone had to return to school
      shortlyYY... pleaseeee, HURRY, HURRY!!!
      So when the last child was gone, she began thinking of her old age
      and about the absolute dread she had of ending up in a nursing home,
      in the way she knew of nursing homes she had visited. She thought
      to herself that she would die of boredom if she had to end up in one
      of those. So she started to light up some pilot projects for Senior
      citizens. Eventually, her projects went from pilot to lit up ac
      cross the whole province, through the governments programs of social
      services delivery
      One day, in her late 60s, the minister of social services of the
      province came and asked her if she would accept to have the latest,
      newest and largest senior citizen center named after her, which of
      course she accepted.
      The party in power who had honored her so, offered her to run as a
      candidate in the next provincial elections and she giggled her way
      out of it while taking the man who had just made the offer by the
      arm and led him to another person who was standing 100 feet away.
      Arriving in front of that other man she said to the party
      man: "Here is your man". That man was elected and was re-elected
      until he decided to leave politics.
      At 78 years old, she and my dad retired from handling a once a week
      bus trip for a club of 3000 seniors that she initiated 15 years
      before. All the while, since her teens, she had been a great
      listener and councilor to each and everyone who needed her time and
      attention.
      That winter after retiring from the senior's club activities, they
      got bored so they stripped all the woods in the house and refinished
      them and when spring came, the went to get scaffolding' s and they
      stripped and repainted the outside of the house, alone, just the 2
      of them. People were stoping by with their cameras to film the
      scene.
      By the time the whole count is done of their offspring, they moved
      on to heaven leaving behind about 60 people and the number will go
      on growing.
      They both passed away a few years ago. First he did at 84, spending
      no more than a week at the hospital as she nursed him until it
      became medically impossible to do at home and then a couple years
      later, after lining up her departure with destiny to the best of her
      reach, she passed away at home surrounded by her children. No need
      of nursing home for her, she had won against all odds of modern
      life's damage on family and community life!
      Such is The Faculty of Living...where being comes first, then comes
      what you have as personal talents, gifts and inclinations, then come
      what you do with who you are and what you are made of...where the
      only how and why is the power of love and wisdom breathing in the
      Spirit of Life and living out in the solemn joy of being human!

      ,,,all blessings be with us all...
      Benoit Couture


      --- In globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Graham,
      >
      > Thank you for explaining more about your views on "power" and for
      > inspiring Benoit to respond.
      >
      > One distinction that I find helpful is between "power"
      and "getting
      > things done" where power is the ability to get things done. Many
      people
      > want power and others want to get things done. It leads to very
      > different mindsets:
      >
      > * You can have lots of power but get nothing done with it, just
      sit on
      > it, which is usually the case.
      > * Whereas you can have no power but get everything done. This is
      if you
      > are willing to have it get done by anybody.
      >
      > I know of eight ways of getting things done and emotional
      situations
      > where I recommend them:
      > * Making yourself heard when you are disgusted.
      > * Initiating when you are excited.
      > * Delegating when you are content.
      > * Renewing - perhaps by retreating - when you are sad.
      > * Confronting when you are frightened.
      > * Articulating when you are surprised.
      > * Sheer will when you are in suspense.
      > * Responding when you are at peace.
      > None of these require any significant power or actually any power
      at
      > all. They are simply a matter of intent as in prayer. In fact,
      they
      > are channels for focusing power, they are all ways of sharing
      power.
      >
      > An old lady may have no power. But she can make herself heard,
      > initiate, delegate, renew, confront, articulate, apply sheer will
      or
      > respond. And the result is that an elephant may supply all the
      power
      > that might be needed. Or a king. Or her village. Or an
      earthquake. Or
      > the sun. Or a virus. But it's not relevant where the power comes
      from
      > or who gets the credit for it. What's relevant, at least for her,
      is
      > that things get done (like the laundry).
      >
      > That is the story of Rosa Parks and the civil rights movement.
      Where
      > there is a Rosa Parks who decides it's not a matter of power where
      she
      > sits on the bus, then there will be a reverend Martin Luther King
      Jr.,
      > and a president Lyndon B. Johnson, and federal troops, and a
      national
      > rethinking.
      >
      > If you give freely 100 dollars, then you will gladly take 10,000.
      But
      > if you clutch 100 dollars, you will be slow to take 10,000. The
      one who
      > shares a little wields all.
      >
      > We don't say that a thin long copper wire has power. It doesn't
      have
      > any control over its power. But it brings the power to where it's
      > needed and we might think of it has having control over that. And
      it's
      > the "last mile" which is much more essential than any nuclear
      power
      > plant might be. This is also our division of labor that I see
      with
      > regard to God. Our job is to set things up right. God's job is
      to
      > scale our efforts to the appropriate level. We can help God by
      making
      > sure that our efforts can scale. But it's not for us to worry too
      much
      > if they do. And also, our efforts can merge with many others,
      > hopefully, but it's important that we be willing to share our
      power with
      > others. Our worry is to know where our power lines should go, and
      > others can worry about how much power should go through them, or
      even
      > how to link up with us so that we might have some power in the
      first
      > place. But certainly we all do have some power already and we can
      focus
      > on applying that and then others might understand why or why not
      it
      > would be good to share more with us.
      >
      > In Chicago my friend Joe Damal is a community organizer. And many
      > community organizers would about "power" and "empowerment" . But
      he
      > simply focused on "getting things done" and he seemed much more
      > effective. It's an awful distraction to worry about getting
      power, and
      > it's very removed from the fruits, perhaps intentionally so,
      because
      > it's very divisive. I think that every concern about power should
      come
      > with a greater concern for what exactly we're getting done. The
      great
      > problems of globalization in our time come from corporations which
      have
      > "limited liability" but "unlimited scope", they can accumulate
      power (in
      > the form of money) but not have any specific mission for it to
      serve.
      >
      > It's impossible to have power in relationships that are voluntary
      at any
      > point. Those are the kinds of relationships we want - voluntary
      > relationships, not contractual relationships. (A soldier signing
      a
      > contract to go to Iraq is not a "volunteer", not if we believe
      that
      > people grow and might and should change their minds as they
      grow.) So
      > it's important for us to learn how to work without power, how to
      get
      > things done. This is the nature of "working-in- parallel" .
      Everything
      > works first on what they want to do, but openly so it's very
      simple to
      > see where we might help each other with little trouble.
      >
      > Our lab is exciting in part because we're finding ways to get
      things
      > done through voluntary relationships. It's up front that at our
      lab I
      > have the power. But that's in the narrow context of our lab.
      We're
      > very welcome to lead our own labs that make use of what we've
      brought
      > together. And we're welcome to lead parts of our labs - working
      groups
      > where our values and our growth provide the "center of the
      universe".
      > And we're welcome to share such energy across endeavors. I and
      others
      > achieve what we do at our lab not because of our powers but
      because
      > we're getting so much done, mostly many very small steps that
      share our
      > good energy.
      >
      > Graham, you're very persistent - in the best sense - to
      > "work-in-parallel" with us to find how we might benefit from your
      > experience in governance and management. I'm very slow to
      integrate
      > your gifts in part because of the contractual expression that I
      see in
      > your integrative systems. Is there any way to just start applying
      them
      > without accepting them? Is there any way that you could
      illustrate
      > openly what you yourself are getting done with them? In a way
      that we
      > can all build on voluntarily, as we each choose? Is there any way
      to
      > apply your idea without any legal form? What would that look
      like? I
      > would be excited if you might explain.
      >
      > Thank you for your letters!
      >
      > Andrius
      >
      > Andrius Kulikauskas
      > Minciu Sodas
      > http://www.ms. lt
      > ms@...
      > +370 (5) 264 5950
      > +370 (699) 30003
      > Vilnius, Lithuania
      >
      >
      >
      > Graham Douglas wrote:
      > > Benoit,
      > >
      > > I have been away and am catching up on emails.
      > >
      > > The views Jeff has expressed in relation to your comments
      on "real
      > > power is taken not given" are the same as mine.
      > >
      > > "Power" simply means "the ability to do or act". I believe we
      all seek
      > > a sense of meaning, a sense of belonging and a sense of personal
      > > power. Where one believes a sense of personal power comes from
      is
      > > another matter. I believe it, and a sense of meaning and a sense
      of
      > > belonging, come from balancing all aspects of the human will
      > > (reflecting basic human needs) in the light of our currently
      most
      > > accurate theories about the world and ourselves. I choose to
      believe
      > > this because science seems to indicate everything we know is a
      theory
      > > because our minds function by generalising from examples, that
      is,
      > > by creating theories.
      > >
      > > Turning to your point about working to achieve peaceful
      outcomes,
      > > remembering that everything we (and others) know is a theory can
      > > provide a common basis for communication - essential for
      successful
      > > relationships, interactions and trust. Anyway, that's my theory!
      > >
      > >
      > > Graham
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > *From:* Jeff Buderer <mailto:jeff@ ...>
      > > *To:* globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      > > <mailto:globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com>
      > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:02 AM
      > > *Subject:* Re: span low Re: [globalvillages] SPAM-LOW: Re: a
      > > mutltitude of silver bullets are out there
      > >
      > > Benoit,
      > >
      > > You and Graham have different views obvious but that is not
      > > necessarily
      > > a bad thing.
      > >
      > > belling the cat means you make it so the cat cant pounce on
      the
      > > mouse or
      > > more importantly from a human perspective the birds.
      > >
      > > My interpretation of "real power is taken not given" is
      based on
      > > progressive realists and their belief that you dont expect
      power
      > > to be
      > > given out justly but rather work to empower the marginalized
      so that
      > > they learn how to function in an unjust global system in way
      that
      > > though
      > > networking and training begins to support an alternative
      economic and
      > > social system on a local as well as regional and global
      scale.
      > >
      > > So the focus is not on fighting or lecturing the powerful
      about
      > > how they
      > > unjustly rule the world but rather focuses on training and
      empowering
      > > people to gain the skills for self-rule. It is in a nutshell
      about
      > > changing the memes of the society or reducing their impact
      on people
      > > through the development of educational and capacity building
      > > system "as
      > > if people really mattered".
      > >
      > > This may require some degree of intelligence because you
      have a
      > > strategy
      > > that is realistic and effective and potentially threatens
      the status
      > > quo. That then potentially makes you different and possibly
      more
      > > dangerous than existing progressives who usually play right
      into the
      > > hands of establishment hard liners by making polarizing and
      divisive
      > > statements. In other words there are things we may know in
      our hearts
      > > and in the logic of our minds but because of the political
      > > sensibilities
      > > and contradictions of our age we cannot say in public.
      > >
      > > jeff
      > >
      > > > Hi Graham,
      > > >
      > > > I just need some clarification about what does the
      expression
      > > "belling
      > > > the cat" means and also, "real power is taken, not given."
      This
      > > last
      > > > one rings so loud of military intelligence that I cannot
      help
      > > but to
      > > > have my senses of defense screaming "no way and no
      thanks". In my
      > > > understanding as one who wishes to contribute in peace
      resolution
      > > > scaling from personal to communal and from local to
      global, your
      > > > statement represents a view of the war-making machine that
      humanity
      > > > needs to do away with, if there ever is to be a future
      that we
      > > can all
      > > > with. Please explain how else can could your statement mean
      > > > something different. Thank you.
      > > > I am writing because I am of the opinion that the
      statement you
      > > make
      > > > about power needs to change from what it is now to
      something like:
      > > > "Man proposes and God disposes so that power is into our
      > > receiving as
      > > > a blessing to be given"; which your statement goes 180
      degrees
      > > in the
      > > > opposite direction to the one I just wrote as well as from
      love and
      > > > truth's point of view, the change I propose are to clarify
      the real
      > > > power that humanity needs. I say this because my experience
      > > tells me
      > > > that power is neither given nor taken if taken and given
      are not
      > > both
      > > > travelling on the rails coming from and leading into the
      > > blessing for
      > > > us all here and now... The movement of power is "YES"
      where "NO"
      > > gets
      > > > to be the fertilizer and nutrients is okay but only in so
      long as
      > > > where and when NO has no power nor any opportunity to
      obstruct YES.
      > > > Let's push this image of your statement to the extreme of
      what
      > > > military intelligence has to live with, when isolated on
      its
      > > own, and
      > > > what we get is all of the misery on earth, looking at the
      answer
      > > and
      > > > moving toward it so fast that the answer, being YES, gets
      scared of
      > > > its own insufficiency and runs away, dissolving into riots
      that
      > > must
      > > > be controled. That is what the image of your statement
      taken to
      > > limit
      > > > of its reality look like. Now take my statement, and you
      end up
      > > with
      > > > an armed forces turned into the heart forces, where the
      enemy is
      > > first
      > > > targetted as one who needs to receive the power of YES.
      Yes there
      > > > are still weapons in the picture I propose, yes there are
      still
      > > people
      > > > dying from arme's conflicts. But only until we arrive to...
      > > >
      > > > ...all blessings be with us all...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > PS: I have nothing against military intelligence in so
      much as it
      > > > serves the cause of the sanctity and integrity, in the
      integrity
      > > > of sanctity! "Real power is taken not given" is a "motto"
      for the
      > > > animal side of humanity's reality, the one that denies
      that God can
      > > > rescue anyone from darkness, even my worst enemy. Those
      who know
      > > God
      > > > cannot compromise that position without being left out of
      the God's
      > > > genuine
      > > > movement of Her/His YES, moving against all the odds of our
      > > > systematically confused and distorted NO that keeps us off
      the
      > > rails
      > > > of destiny...
      > > >
      > > > Kind regards,
      > > > Benoit Couture
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > */Graham Douglas <integrative@ optusnet. com.au>/* wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Tom and all,
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for these fascinating exchanges which I have filed
      > > > for continual consideration. Have been a bit busy with
      > > > sustainability projects that are my way of "belling the
      cat". For
      > > > what they are worth, my starting points in this "belling"
      are to
      > > > remember:-
      > > >
      > > > Real power is taken not given.
      > > >
      > > > Never attack on ground chosen by an enemy.
      > > >
      > > > Think, plan, organise and act integratively.
      > > >
      > > > Graham
      > > > www.integrative- thinking. com
      > > <http://www.integrat ive-thinking. com/
      > > <http://www.integrat ive-thinking. com/>>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > *From:* Thomas L. Wayburn <mailto:twayburn@ ...
      > > <mailto:twayburn% 40yahoo.com> >
      > > > *To:* globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > <mailto:globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      > > <mailto:globalvilla ges%40yahoogroup s.com>>
      > > > *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2006 12:21 AM
      > > > *Subject:* [globalvillages] SPAM-LOW: Re: a mutltitude of
      > > > silver bullets are out there
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Very nice analysis, Steve.
      > > >
      > > > To me the problem always boils down to the following: Who
      > > > will bell the cat? In other words, how can the rich and
      > > > powerful owners of the world be relieved of their wealth
      and
      > > > power?
      > > >
      > > > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
      > > > http://dematerialis m.net/ <http://dematerialis m.net/
      > > <http://dematerialis m.net/>>
      > > >
      > > > --- In globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > <mailto:globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      > > <mailto:globalvilla ges%40yahoogroup s.com>>, "Steve Bosserman"
      > > > <stevebosserman@ ...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Everyone,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > One way to see the situation is through two sets of key
      > > > relationships:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > 1) Non-renewable energy generated, emissions produced,
      > > > overall amount
      > > > > of energy consumed, number of people on the planet, and
      how much
      > > > > non-renewable energy there is remaining.
      > > > >
      > > > > 2) Renewable energy, zero emissions, overall amount of
      energy
      > > > > consumed, number of people on the planet, and how much
      > > > renewable energy can
      > > > > be generated to meet the consumption demands.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > In the first, if we don't stop increasing energy
      consumption
      > > > by increasing
      > > > > per capita energy consumption and the number of people we
      > > > will crash and
      > > > > burn because there is only so much non-renewable energy
      > > > remaining.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > In the second, if we don't stop icreasing energy
      consumption
      > > > by increasing
      > > > > per capita energy consumption and the number of people we
      > > > will still crash
      > > > > and burn because there is only so much renewable energy
      we
      > > > can generate and
      > > > > it's insufficient.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > It's not clear in which scenario we crash and burn more
      > > > quickly, but it is
      > > > > inevitable and in terms of human history, it is
      relatively
      > > > soon. There is
      > > > > some sentiment held by many to go with the second and
      resort
      > > > to wishing for
      > > > > the best to cover the shortfall. Leastwise, this is a
      > > > relatively easy
      > > > > "sell" in the current much-maligned economy we have now.
      > > > And, it is a
      > > > > somewhat a straightforward process to explain to people
      how
      > > > they can take
      > > > > certain steps to produce and use renewable energy,
      eliminate
      > > > emissions,
      > > > > reduce their energy consumption by adopting more
      efficient
      > > > processes and
      > > > > methods, and for some segments of the population, reduce
      > > > family size because
      > > > > of perceived bette economic and social circumstances.
      This
      > > > can even be
      > > > > setup as a formula: if you do this, you get this
      > > > "improvement" and if you do
      > > > > this and that, you get this much more "benefit." Of
      course,
      > > > we're all going
      > > > > to die-off anyway, but this feels better and we can
      convince
      > > > ourselves we
      > > > > are forestalling the inevitable by being so responsible.
      It
      > > > ain't perfect,
      > > > > but it's something.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Now, if we REALLY want to drag out our collective demise
      on
      > > > this planet the
      > > > > alternatives are two: reduce the amount of per capita
      energy
      > > > consumption,
      > > > > which is a social, political, and economic challenge; or
      cap
      > > > / reduce the
      > > > > number of people, which is a moral issue. The two are
      > > > intertwined. Those
      > > > > who benefit through consumption and, as a result, consume
      > > > the most are
      > > > > loathe to change a system that gave them power and
      wealth.
      > > > Also, the system
      > > > > is designed to keep the vast majority chronically
      > > > disadvantaged so they are
      > > > &g; poorly positioned to disrupt the system. However, just
      > > > like Marie
      > > > > Antoinette could not be influenced to associate her
      > > > affluence, privilege,
      > > > > and separateness in the ruling class with the worsening
      > > > condition of the
      > > > > uncared for masses would eventually seed civil unrest and
      > > > revolution,
      > > > > members of the dominant culture today are content to say
      the
      > > > contemporary
      > > > > version of, "Let them eat cake!"
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > So, we experiment with economic and political systems
      that
      > > > are counter to
      > > > > the dominant culture in an effort to find better ways.
      And
      > > > we will, too.
      > > > > It is imperative for life from this planet to persist out
      > > > there long after
      > > > > this planet is gone. And just like moving people from
      option
      > > > one to option
      > > > > two mentioned beforehand, we present clear evidence of
      what
      > > > steps to take,
      > > > > the benefits that course of action offers, and ease with
      > > > which it can be
      > > > > done to enroll folks one at a time in the doing life
      > > > togetherd ifferently
      > > > > and better. It boils down to the two immutable constants
      of
      > > > the universe
      > > > > are change and interdependence. These two are the most
      > > > powerful forces no
      > > > > matter what system is in place-as a result, they make
      the best
      > > > > "bridge-building" material to get people to come across.
      > > > Besides, I am
      > > > > tired of being fed cake!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Best regards,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Steve B.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > _____
      > > > >
      > > > > From: globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      [mailto:globalvilla
      > > > ges@yahoogroups. com]
      > > > > On Behalf Of Tom Wayburn
      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 12:21 PM
      > > > > To: globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > > Subject: [globalvillages] SPAM-LOW: Re: a mutltitude of
      > > > silver bullets are
      > > > > out there
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To Jeff, Steve, Benoit, and everyone else,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I am most grateful for the reponse of everyone to my
      plea for
      > > > > sustainability. I know we all want to solve this problem
      and
      > > > do whatever
      > > > > is best. Because of the length of this thread, I will
      start
      > > > over again with
      > > > > comments on a couple of Jeff's remarks:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > In particular, I wish to remind everyone that with
      respect
      > > > to abandoning
      > > > > artificial economic contingency and eliminating the
      profit
      > > > motive I wrote,
      > > > > "This is the one point upon which there can be no
      > > > compromise." Change,
      > > > > therefore, can come about in at least two ways that I
      have
      > > > considered. As
      > > > > in Mexico, change can come by revolution, if it comes to
      > > > that in Mexico.
      > > > > Whoever will sway the great crowds of people necessary to
      > > > overthrow an
      > > > > empire must undoubtedly inculcate something like
      religious
      > > > fervor.
      > > > > Alternatively, change can come by means of an intentional
      > > > community either
      > > > > concentrated within definite boundaries or distributed as
      > > > far as possible in
      > > > > a network of e ople who are willing to participate in an
      > > > alternative
      > > > > economic system as in the community currency movement.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I hope Jeff will excuse my misunderstanding of
      SolaRoofs. I
      > > > have done a
      > > > > quick calculation concerning power density of
      concentrated
      > > > solar power
      > > > > (CSP). If I remember correctly, a 500MW CSP installation
      for
      > > > the desert was
      > > > > supposed to occupy 1500 acres. Since a 1000 MW nuclear
      power
      > > > installation
      > > > > occupies 300 acres, CSP has one-tenth the power density
      of
      > > > nuclear;
      > > > > therefore, the remarks on area for sufficient nuclear
      power
      > > > to maintain a
      > > > > capitalist economy, which cannot exist without growth
      > > > http://dematerialis
      > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/On% 20Capitalism2.
      > > > html#_Toc1418671 51>
      > > > > m.net/On%20Capitali sm2.html# _Toc141867151 , I made at
      > > > http://dematerialis
      > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/CwC. html#_Land>
      m.net/CwC.html#
      > > > _Land and at The
      > > > > Ten Point Pla Results in a Nuclear Society in
      > > > http://dematerialis
      > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/CwC. html#_Land>
      m.net/CwC.html
      > > > apply except much
      > > > > sooner. It looks like a good option for a natural economy
      > > > however, i.e., an
      > > > > steady-state economy without a profit motive. Comparison
      of
      > > > the four types
      > > > > of political economies considered in http://dematerialis
      > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/Mark- II-Economy. html>
      > > > m.net/Mark-II- Economy.html
      > > > > were done earlier in http://dematerialis
      > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/CwC. html#_Land>
      m.net/CwC.html
      > > > starting with
      > > > > actual US economic data taken principally from the DOE.
      > > > Therefore, if one
      > > > > takes the two studies together, one can be reasonably
      > > > certain of my
      > > > > conclusions. In fact, I have adjusted the conservation
      data in
      > > > > http://dematerialis <http://dematerialis m.net/Mark-
      > > > II-Economy- New.xls>
      > > > > m.net/Mark-II- Economy-New. xls once agan to try to
      falsify
      > > > my own conclusion
      > > > > and ratify Jeff's to no avail. However, I come much
      closer.
      > > > Still, the
      > > > > steady-state market economy uses 1.73 times Maximum
      > > > Renewables and the
      > > > > natural economy requires only 80% of Maximum Renewables.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
      > > > > http://dematerialis <http://dematerialis m.net/> m.net/
      > > > > http://dematerialis <http://dematerialis m.blogspot.
      com/>
      > > > m.blogspot.com/
      > > > >
      > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release
      > > > Date: 12/09/2006
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
      > > >
      <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=42973/ *http://www. yahoo.com/ preview
      > >
      <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=42973/ *http://www. yahoo.com/ preview>>
      > > >
      > >
      > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      -----------
      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release
      Date:
      > > 12/09/2006
      > >
      > >
      >




      Richard Nelson
      solaroof@yahoo. com
      http://www.solaroof .org
      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/solaroof
      http://www.solaroof .org/wiki/ SolaRoofGuy/ Welcome
      Together we can BUILD a sustainable future

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      Richard Nelson
      solaroof@yahoo. com
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      http://www.solaroof .org/wiki/ SolaRoofGuy/ Welcome
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    • Jeff Buderer
      Rick, Very insightful comments. The problem is not just about our inability to communicate. It actually goes deeper than that, because a real and authentic
      Message 35 of 35 , Sep 24, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Rick,

        Very insightful comments.

        The problem is not just about our inability to communicate. It actually
        goes deeper than that, because a real and authentic change has to
        address a change in the way we live and experience life itself.

        So we must first shift our mindset before we can expect to reverse the
        issues you mention in your email.

        Jeff





        > Benoit, I appreciate your deep experience in the underground side of
        society, which is a mirror to the rest of society who resort to the
        force of Law because the value systems that we live by are corrupted our
        failure to lead from the heart and with compassion and empathy for
        others. Nobody should be made into a criminal but that is what you are
        saying is happening. And among them are true Robbin Hoods and Louis
        Riels (and each culture can name such heros) who could be recognized and
        enlisted as natural leaders to transition us out of our corruption and
        confussion and bring all into the light of clarity, transparency that
        can kill corruption and exploitation (as learned in SA) in a healing and
        restorative process.
        >
        > Who in our society has the capacity (and permission) to undertake
        such a soul searching transformational program to our justice and social
        agencies? Can small pilot programs be a way forward? Do we not need to
        recognize that the victims of social society's failures are not culapble
        for their plight; for their fight to live in a hostile, unproviding
        world. They are just like victims of natural disaster, but even worse
        since their trauma orginates with the acts and ommissions of fellow
        human beings.
        >
        > This is not to say that we distort our values (authentic and truth
        based values) and "get soft on criminals" - it is not easy work that
        looks like progress but is not. We need to change our mainstream reality
        because the underground society are people who have been excluded,
        marginalized and disrespected. They have been exploited and abused by
        our social services administration, often from a very early age. The
        wrong is in us as much as in this sort of "criminal" - and the truly
        "hardened" criminal has simply been in the system longer. No doubt there
        are some who's underlying problem is mental/emotional disorder but that
        would be a small fraction.
        >
        > The incarcerated population in the USA is larger then the University
        population and costs more than higher education. Therefore society is
        compounding the negative faster then we can cope - especially
        considering the strains and stresses of a dangerous climate of change. I
        speak out of empathy, you have the vantage point of both empathy and
        compassion and close contact. It is wonderful that you have offered to
        lead some kind of initiative where your values would be implemented, and
        certainly, as a social experiment this is valuable. We need new and
        really different approaches to these problems to be tried out - to
        explore potentials that may seem too upsidedown to those who are
        administratively bound up in the old patterns that ARE FAILING. Learning
        the way forward requires trial and error but error that is in search of
        real change is not wrong and is needs acceptance so that we can move
        forward along the path to solutions that work.
        >
        > This message and your message are long and very "dense" so I admit
        that I previously did not read some of your previous messages - but I
        understand that I must take the time to listen. Take the time to
        understand your concepts because they are inspired by your faith and
        your transparent need to act in service to those most in need. It is sad
        that the mainstream is not listening; sad that they are incapacitated -
        they look like they have all the power to make things (good things)
        happen -yet they don't know how to: learn, change, develop, grow, serve
        from the heart, be transparent, be real, be humans rather then
        administrators.
        >
        > Well, I face those same problems in my mission for bringing lifestyle
        change, which I call EcoLiving, which is intimately connected with very
        material things like our built environment and how we make it into a new
        ecological habitat. Who is listening to me? Who keeps me strong in
        championing this change? Not the mainstream building professions,
        government programs, nor the authoritative experts in this field (who
        like those in other domains are presiding over the disasterous results
        of years of wrong thinking and acting) - I am getting my personal
        sustainability from our growing networks of grass roots independent
        thinkers and pioneers of personal transformation. I love our groups and
        send out my best wishes to all those who are coming together to solve
        our own problems with our own initiative and the huge know how that is
        released by collaboration.
        >
        > We will begin to see the opportunities within the crisis (see this
        lecture by Gore) to respond with action on our proposed solutions. For
        example, with the cost of conventional imprisonment becoming so great
        and results being so poor, would there be a point where alternative
        services would be able to compete and offer a novel solution that would
        also satisfy the current administrative goals? This is similar to the
        opportunities for alternative energy that are increasing as the crisis
        with conventional energy deepens. We can have plans in our networks to
        be ready to act at the right time (which is probably now!) if we can
        have our solutions at least prototyped and tested to some degree.
        >
        > Again, the relavence to GlobalVillages is that the new pattern of
        living would remove the root causes of much of the social ills and
        create the right climate for change and personal transformation. Is this
        a possible capacity of such communities: to bring "offenders" into a
        village environment for a life restoring process of re-integration that
        is real, loving and sustainable? Could this be done successfully on a
        contract basis? What about fostering children in villages so that
        children in institutions (the large and growing problem in Romania, as a
        legacy of the Communist era) or aids orphans in Africa have a chance at
        a real life and are not forced into the underground economy of
        exploitation and abuse.
        >
        > With all the newly announced Billionphilanthopy is not the
        GlobalVillages pattern a desireable tool for re-ingineering social and
        justice services delivery?
        >
        > Rick
        >
        > Benoit Couture <benoitctr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Rick,
        >
        > I deeply appreciate your answer. By your reply, I think that there is
        some good Sunday leading for us all in the Spirit, by connecting your
        answer to this thread here, along with
        > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/1846 in order
        to witness some deep weaving of the web's opportunity that we are being
        worked into and for which we are working for, in accordance to this
        beautiful meal for the soul that your served me in your feedback, thanks
        again.
        > Here's what might also be of interest for some furthert Sunday
        reading with the potential to help establish the connection between this
        one here, for a new kind of Sunday-Monday passage into Minciu Sodas's
        continuity to the maturity of history and destiny, in humanity's
        civilization development...
        > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/1836
        >
        > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/cyfranogi/message/1832
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/message/1558
        >
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Benoit
        >
        > Richard Nelson <solaroof@...> wrote:
        >
        > Benoit these are inspiring stories. We do need examples and
        encouragment to see in the challenges of this conflicted world the true
        way of the spirit. I collaborate with Cannon Peter Challen (CCMJ) who
        included these quotes to me in a recent message. I think that they do
        relate to this subject of the special power of changemakers who connect
        with hearts:
        >
        > "Even when they call us mad, when they call us subversives and
        communists and all the epithets they put on us, we know we only preach
        the subversive witness of the Beatitudes, which have turned everything
        upside down" — Oscar Romero
        >
        > Our invitation as we go out into the world, is to lay down our fear
        and love the world. Lay down our sword and shield, and seek out the
        image of God's beloved in the people we find it hardest to love. Lay
        down our narrow self-interest, and heal the hurting and fill the hungry
        and set the prisoners free. Lay down our need for power and control, and
        bow to the image of God's beloved in the weakest, the poorest, and the
        most excluded.
        > the first female Presiding Bishop-elect of the Episcopal Church, USA,
        Katharine Jefferts Schori
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Benoit <benoitctr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you Steve, Tom, Graham, Jeff and Andrius,
        >
        > This thread is becoming a work of art. Here we are, a bunch of
        > males, moving from brain storming into a "mind rubbing" as brought
        > to us by Pam and which Janet turns into pure joy of humor and wisdom
        > together, and I quote:
        >
        > "Thanks so much, and great minds think alike (though is that the
        > rub, haha?!),
        > because I have been having the same questions and challenges at
        > HH ... I'll be thinking out loud on this as well, and am sure that
        > we can
        > "rub-a-dub-dub" till we put some fire in our thinking "tub"!! All
        > best wishes
        > and to 100% virtual visibility, Janet." That was from:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/holistichelping/message/339
        > Then there is Jeff who added some Cherooke wisdom of the 2 fighting
        > wolves within and of our responsability to decide which one we
        > feed. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/backtotheroot/message/441
        >
        > My reply to Graham is at:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/message/1608 and in my
        > answer I offer my personal experience with the effects of power.
        > The point I make in my reply is the difference between the love of
        > power and the power of love and I seek to make sense to Graham by
        > putting it in a context that he can relate to, namely, the presence
        > of the Canadian armed forces being preceded in Afghanistan by the
        > heart forces. To offer an example, I cite the Sir Paul MacCartney's
        > concert in Russia as opposed to the cold war. The heart forces
        > could be the deployment of sport and cultural means to attract the
        > people into the peace making and development process.
        >
        > Andrius, I loved the 8 points you offer and the old lady's example.
        > She sounds like my mom. because she did indeed move and spoke in
        > such a way that "elephant may supply all the power that might be
        > needed. Or a king. Or her village. Or an earthquake. Or the sun. Or
        > a virus."
        > Starting at 20 years old, she began raising 14 children. These
        > children came at a rate of 9 in their first 10 years of marriage and
        > then came 5 years of a God-given break, then came 5 more in the next
        > 6 years...he-ha. One washroom to serve everyone. It was a lot of
        > fun at lunch time when everyone had to return to school
        > shortlyYY...pleaseeee, HURRY, HURRY!!!
        > So when the last child was gone, she began thinking of her old age
        > and about the absolute dread she had of ending up in a nursing home,
        > in the way she knew of nursing homes she had visited. She thought
        > to herself that she would die of boredom if she had to end up in one
        > of those. So she started to light up some pilot projects for Senior
        > citizens. Eventually, her projects went from pilot to lit up ac
        > cross the whole province, through the governments programs of social
        > services delivery
        > One day, in her late 60s, the minister of social services of the
        > province came and asked her if she would accept to have the latest,
        > newest and largest senior citizen center named after her, which of
        > course she accepted.
        > The party in power who had honored her so, offered her to run as a
        > candidate in the next provincial elections and she giggled her way
        > out of it while taking the man who had just made the offer by the
        > arm and led him to another person who was standing 100 feet away.
        > Arriving in front of that other man she said to the party
        > man: "Here is your man". That man was elected and was re-elected
        > until he decided to leave politics.
        > At 78 years old, she and my dad retired from handling a once a week
        > bus trip for a club of 3000 seniors that she initiated 15 years
        > before. All the while, since her teens, she had been a great
        > listener and councilor to each and everyone who needed her time and
        > attention.
        > That winter after retiring from the senior's club activities, they
        > got bored so they stripped all the woods in the house and refinished
        > them and when spring came, the went to get scaffolding's and they
        > stripped and repainted the outside of the house, alone, just the 2
        > of them. People were stoping by with their cameras to film the
        > scene.
        > By the time the whole count is done of their offspring, they moved
        > on to heaven leaving behind about 60 people and the number will go
        > on growing.
        > They both passed away a few years ago. First he did at 84, spending
        > no more than a week at the hospital as she nursed him until it
        > became medically impossible to do at home and then a couple years
        > later, after lining up her departure with destiny to the best of her
        > reach, she passed away at home surrounded by her children. No need
        > of nursing home for her, she had won against all odds of modern
        > life's damage on family and community life!
        > Such is The Faculty of Living...where being comes first, then comes
        > what you have as personal talents, gifts and inclinations, then come
        > what you do with who you are and what you are made of...where the
        > only how and why is the power of love and wisdom breathing in the
        > Spirit of Life and living out in the solemn joy of being human!
        >
        > ,,,all blessings be with us all...
        > Benoit Couture
        >
        >
        > --- In globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Graham,
        > >
        > > Thank you for explaining more about your views on "power" and for
        > > inspiring Benoit to respond.
        > >
        > > One distinction that I find helpful is between "power"
        > and "getting
        > > things done" where power is the ability to get things done. Many
        > people
        > > want power and others want to get things done. It leads to very
        > > different mindsets:
        > >
        > > * You can have lots of power but get nothing done with it, just
        > sit on
        > > it, which is usually the case.
        > > * Whereas you can have no power but get everything done. This is
        > if you
        > > are willing to have it get done by anybody.
        > >
        > > I know of eight ways of getting things done and emotional
        > situations
        > > where I recommend them:
        > > * Making yourself heard when you are disgusted.
        > > * Initiating when you are excited.
        > > * Delegating when you are content.
        > > * Renewing - perhaps by retreating - when you are sad.
        > > * Confronting when you are frightened.
        > > * Articulating when you are surprised.
        > > * Sheer will when you are in suspense.
        > > * Responding when you are at peace.
        > > None of these require any significant power or actually any power
        > at
        > > all. They are simply a matter of intent as in prayer. In fact,
        > they
        > > are channels for focusing power, they are all ways of sharing
        > power.
        > >
        > > An old lady may have no power. But she can make herself heard,
        > > initiate, delegate, renew, confront, articulate, apply sheer will
        > or
        > > respond. And the result is that an elephant may supply all the
        > power
        > > that might be needed. Or a king. Or her village. Or an
        > earthquake. Or
        > > the sun. Or a virus. But it's not relevant where the power comes
        > from
        > > or who gets the credit for it. What's relevant, at least for her,
        > is
        > > that things get done (like the laundry).
        > >
        > > That is the story of Rosa Parks and the civil rights movement.
        > Where
        > > there is a Rosa Parks who decides it's not a matter of power where
        > she
        > > sits on the bus, then there will be a reverend Martin Luther King
        > Jr.,
        > > and a president Lyndon B. Johnson, and federal troops, and a
        > national
        > > rethinking.
        > >
        > > If you give freely 100 dollars, then you will gladly take 10,000.
        > But
        > > if you clutch 100 dollars, you will be slow to take 10,000. The
        > one who
        > > shares a little wields all.
        > >
        > > We don't say that a thin long copper wire has power. It doesn't
        > have
        > > any control over its power. But it brings the power to where it's
        > > needed and we might think of it has having control over that. And
        > it's
        > > the "last mile" which is much more essential than any nuclear
        > power
        > > plant might be. This is also our division of labor that I see
        > with
        > > regard to God. Our job is to set things up right. God's job is
        > to
        > > scale our efforts to the appropriate level. We can help God by
        > making
        > > sure that our efforts can scale. But it's not for us to worry too
        > much
        > > if they do. And also, our efforts can merge with many others,
        > > hopefully, but it's important that we be willing to share our
        > power with
        > > others. Our worry is to know where our power lines should go, and
        > > others can worry about how much power should go through them, or
        > even
        > > how to link up with us so that we might have some power in the
        > first
        > > place. But certainly we all do have some power already and we can
        > focus
        > > on applying that and then others might understand why or why not
        > it
        > > would be good to share more with us.
        > >
        > > In Chicago my friend Joe Damal is a community organizer. And many
        > > community organizers would about "power" and "empowerment". But
        > he
        > > simply focused on "getting things done" and he seemed much more
        > > effective. It's an awful distraction to worry about getting
        > power, and
        > > it's very removed from the fruits, perhaps intentionally so,
        > because
        > > it's very divisive. I think that every concern about power should
        > come
        > > with a greater concern for what exactly we're getting done. The
        > great
        > > problems of globalization in our time come from corporations which
        > have
        > > "limited liability" but "unlimited scope", they can accumulate
        > power (in
        > > the form of money) but not have any specific mission for it to
        > serve.
        > >
        > > It's impossible to have power in relationships that are voluntary
        > at any
        > > point. Those are the kinds of relationships we want - voluntary
        > > relationships, not contractual relationships. (A soldier signing
        > a
        > > contract to go to Iraq is not a "volunteer", not if we believe
        > that
        > > people grow and might and should change their minds as they
        > grow.) So
        > > it's important for us to learn how to work without power, how to
        > get
        > > things done. This is the nature of "working-in-parallel".
        > Everything
        > > works first on what they want to do, but openly so it's very
        > simple to
        > > see where we might help each other with little trouble.
        > >
        > > Our lab is exciting in part because we're finding ways to get
        > things
        > > done through voluntary relationships. It's up front that at our
        > lab I
        > > have the power. But that's in the narrow context of our lab.
        > We're
        > > very welcome to lead our own labs that make use of what we've
        > brought
        > > together. And we're welcome to lead parts of our labs - working
        > groups
        > > where our values and our growth provide the "center of the
        > universe".
        > > And we're welcome to share such energy across endeavors. I and
        > others
        > > achieve what we do at our lab not because of our powers but
        > because
        > > we're getting so much done, mostly many very small steps that
        > share our
        > > good energy.
        > >
        > > Graham, you're very persistent - in the best sense - to
        > > "work-in-parallel" with us to find how we might benefit from your
        > > experience in governance and management. I'm very slow to
        > integrate
        > > your gifts in part because of the contractual expression that I
        > see in
        > > your integrative systems. Is there any way to just start applying
        > them
        > > without accepting them? Is there any way that you could
        > illustrate
        > > openly what you yourself are getting done with them? In a way
        > that we
        > > can all build on voluntarily, as we each choose? Is there any way
        > to
        > > apply your idea without any legal form? What would that look
        > like? I
        > > would be excited if you might explain.
        > >
        > > Thank you for your letters!
        > >
        > > Andrius
        > >
        > > Andrius Kulikauskas
        > > Minciu Sodas
        > > http://www.ms.lt
        > > ms@...
        > > +370 (5) 264 5950
        > > +370 (699) 30003
        > > Vilnius, Lithuania
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Graham Douglas wrote:
        > > > Benoit,
        > > >
        > > > I have been away and am catching up on emails.
        > > >
        > > > The views Jeff has expressed in relation to your comments
        > on "real
        > > > power is taken not given" are the same as mine.
        > > >
        > > > "Power" simply means "the ability to do or act". I believe we
        > all seek
        > > > a sense of meaning, a sense of belonging and a sense of personal
        > > > power. Where one believes a sense of personal power comes from
        > is
        > > > another matter. I believe it, and a sense of meaning and a sense
        > of
        > > > belonging, come from balancing all aspects of the human will
        > > > (reflecting basic human needs) in the light of our currently
        > most
        > > > accurate theories about the world and ourselves. I choose to
        > believe
        > > > this because science seems to indicate everything we know is a
        > theory
        > > > because our minds function by generalising from examples, that
        > is,
        > > > by creating theories.
        > > >
        > > > Turning to your point about working to achieve peaceful
        > outcomes,
        > > > remembering that everything we (and others) know is a theory can
        > > > provide a common basis for communication - essential for
        > successful
        > > > relationships, interactions and trust. Anyway, that's my theory!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Graham
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > *From:* Jeff Buderer <mailto:jeff@...>
        > > > *To:* globalvillages@yahoogroups.com
        > > > <mailto:globalvillages@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:02 AM
        > > > *Subject:* Re: span low Re: [globalvillages] SPAM-LOW: Re: a
        > > > mutltitude of silver bullets are out there
        > > >
        > > > Benoit,
        > > >
        > > > You and Graham have different views obvious but that is not
        > > > necessarily
        > > > a bad thing.
        > > >
        > > > belling the cat means you make it so the cat cant pounce on
        > the
        > > > mouse or
        > > > more importantly from a human perspective the birds.
        > > >
        > > > My interpretation of "real power is taken not given" is
        > based on
        > > > progressive realists and their belief that you dont expect
        > power
        > > > to be
        > > > given out justly but rather work to empower the marginalized
        > so that
        > > > they learn how to function in an unjust global system in way
        > that
        > > > though
        > > > networking and training begins to support an alternative
        > economic and
        > > > social system on a local as well as regional and global
        > scale.
        > > >
        > > > So the focus is not on fighting or lecturing the powerful
        > about
        > > > how they
        > > > unjustly rule the world but rather focuses on training and
        > empowering
        > > > people to gain the skills for self-rule. It is in a nutshell
        > about
        > > > changing the memes of the society or reducing their impact
        > on people
        > > > through the development of educational and capacity building
        > > > system "as
        > > > if people really mattered".
        > > >
        > > > This may require some degree of intelligence because you
        > have a
        > > > strategy
        > > > that is realistic and effective and potentially threatens
        > the status
        > > > quo. That then potentially makes you different and possibly
        > more
        > > > dangerous than existing progressives who usually play right
        > into the
        > > > hands of establishment hard liners by making polarizing and
        > divisive
        > > > statements. In other words there are things we may know in
        > our hearts
        > > > and in the logic of our minds but because of the political
        > > > sensibilities
        > > > and contradictions of our age we cannot say in public.
        > > >
        > > > jeff
        > > >
        > > > > Hi Graham,
        > > > >
        > > > > I just need some clarification about what does the
        > expression
        > > > "belling
        > > > > the cat" means and also, "real power is taken, not given."
        > This
        > > > last
        > > > > one rings so loud of military intelligence that I cannot
        > help
        > > > but to
        > > > > have my senses of defense screaming "no way and no
        > thanks". In my
        > > > > understanding as one who wishes to contribute in peace
        > resolution
        > > > > scaling from personal to communal and from local to
        > global, your
        > > > > statement represents a view of the war-making machine that
        > humanity
        > > > > needs to do away with, if there ever is to be a future
        > that we
        > > > can all
        > > > > with. Please explain how else can could your statement mean
        > > > > something different. Thank you.
        > > > > I am writing because I am of the opinion that the
        > statement you
        > > > make
        > > > > about power needs to change from what it is now to
        > something like:
        > > > > "Man proposes and God disposes so that power is into our
        > > > receiving as
        > > > > a blessing to be given"; which your statement goes 180
        > degrees
        > > > in the
        > > > > opposite direction to the one I just wrote as well as from
        > love and
        > > > > truth's point of view, the change I propose are to clarify
        > the real
        > > > > power that humanity needs. I say this because my experience
        > > > tells me
        > > > > that power is neither given nor taken if taken and given
        > are not
        > > > both
        > > > > travelling on the rails coming from and leading into the
        > > > blessing for
        > > > > us all here and now... The movement of power is "YES"
        > where "NO"
        > > > gets
        > > > > to be the fertilizer and nutrients is okay but only in so
        > long as
        > > > > where and when NO has no power nor any opportunity to
        > obstruct YES.
        > > > > Let's push this image of your statement to the extreme of
        > what
        > > > > military intelligence has to live with, when isolated on
        > its
        > > > own, and
        > > > > what we get is all of the misery on earth, looking at the
        > answer
        > > > and
        > > > > moving toward it so fast that the answer, being YES, gets
        > scared of
        > > > > its own insufficiency and runs away, dissolving into riots
        > that
        > > > must
        > > > > be controled. That is what the image of your statement
        > taken to
        > > > limit
        > > > > of its reality look like. Now take my statement, and you
        > end up
        > > > with
        > > > > an armed forces turned into the heart forces, where the
        > enemy is
        > > > first
        > > > > targetted as one who needs to receive the power of YES.
        > Yes there
        > > > > are still weapons in the picture I propose, yes there are
        > still
        > > > people
        > > > > dying from arme's conflicts. But only until we arrive to...
        > > > >
        > > > > ...all blessings be with us all...
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > PS: I have nothing against military intelligence in so
        > much as it
        > > > > serves the cause of the sanctity and integrity, in the
        > integrity
        > > > > of sanctity! "Real power is taken not given" is a "motto"
        > for the
        > > > > animal side of humanity's reality, the one that denies
        > that God can
        > > > > rescue anyone from darkness, even my worst enemy. Those
        > who know
        > > > God
        > > > > cannot compromise that position without being left out of
        > the God's
        > > > > genuine
        > > > > movement of Her/His YES, moving against all the odds of our
        > > > > systematically confused and distorted NO that keeps us off
        > the
        > > > rails
        > > > > of destiny...
        > > > >
        > > > > Kind regards,
        > > > > Benoit Couture
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > */Graham Douglas <integrative@ optusnet. com.au>/* wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Tom and all,
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks for these fascinating exchanges which I have filed
        > > > > for continual consideration. Have been a bit busy with
        > > > > sustainability projects that are my way of "belling the
        > cat". For
        > > > > what they are worth, my starting points in this "belling"
        > are to
        > > > > remember:-
        > > > >
        > > > > Real power is taken not given.
        > > > >
        > > > > Never attack on ground chosen by an enemy.
        > > > >
        > > > > Think, plan, organise and act integratively.
        > > > >
        > > > > Graham
        > > > > www.integrative- thinking. com
        > > > <http://www.integrative-thinking.com/
        > > > <http://www.integrative-thinking.com/>>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > *From:* Thomas L. Wayburn <mailto:twayburn@...
        > > > <mailto:twayburn%40yahoo.com>>
        > > > > *To:* globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
        > > > > <mailto:globalvillages@yahoogroups.com
        > > > <mailto:globalvillages%40yahoogroups.com>>
        > > > > *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2006 12:21 AM
        > > > > *Subject:* [globalvillages] SPAM-LOW: Re: a mutltitude of
        > > > > silver bullets are out there
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Very nice analysis, Steve.
        > > > >
        > > > > To me the problem always boils down to the following: Who
        > > > > will bell the cat? In other words, how can the rich and
        > > > > powerful owners of the world be relieved of their wealth
        > and
        > > > > power?
        > > > >
        > > > > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
        > > > > http://dematerialis m.net/ <http://dematerialism.net/
        > > > <http://dematerialism.net/>>
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
        > > > > <mailto:globalvillages@yahoogroups.com
        > > > <mailto:globalvillages%40yahoogroups.com>>, "Steve Bosserman"
        > > > > <stevebosserman@ ...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Everyone,
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > One way to see the situation is through two sets of key
        > > > > relationships:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 1) Non-renewable energy generated, emissions produced,
        > > > > overall amount
        > > > > > of energy consumed, number of people on the planet, and
        > how much
        > > > > > non-renewable energy there is remaining.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 2) Renewable energy, zero emissions, overall amount of
        > energy
        > > > > > consumed, number of people on the planet, and how much
        > > > > renewable energy can
        > > > > > be generated to meet the consumption demands.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In the first, if we don't stop increasing energy
        > consumption
        > > > > by increasing
        > > > > > per capita energy consumption and the number of people we
        > > > > will crash and
        > > > > > burn because there is only so much non-renewable energy
        > > > > remaining.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In the second, if we don't stop icreasing energy
        > consumption
        > > > > by increasing
        > > > > > per capita energy consumption and the number of people we
        > > > > will still crash
        > > > > > and burn because there is only so much renewable energy
        > we
        > > > > can generate and
        > > > > > it's insufficient.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It's not clear in which scenario we crash and burn more
        > > > > quickly, but it is
        > > > > > inevitable and in terms of human history, it is
        > relatively
        > > > > soon. There is
        > > > > > some sentiment held by many to go with the second and
        > resort
        > > > > to wishing for
        > > > > > the best to cover the shortfall. Leastwise, this is a
        > > > > relatively easy
        > > > > > "sell" in the current much-maligned economy we have now.
        > > > > And, it is a
        > > > > > somewhat a straightforward process to explain to people
        > how
        > > > > they can take
        > > > > > certain steps to produce and use renewable energy,
        > eliminate
        > > > > emissions,
        > > > > > reduce their energy consumption by adopting more
        > efficient
        > > > > processes and
        > > > > > methods, and for some segments of the population, reduce
        > > > > family size because
        > > > > > of perceived bette economic and social circumstances.
        > This
        > > > > can even be
        > > > > > setup as a formula: if you do this, you get this
        > > > > "improvement" and if you do
        > > > > > this and that, you get this much more "benefit." Of
        > course,
        > > > > we're all going
        > > > > > to die-off anyway, but this feels better and we can
        > convince
        > > > > ourselves we
        > > > > > are forestalling the inevitable by being so responsible.
        > It
        > > > > ain't perfect,
        > > > > > but it's something.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Now, if we REALLY want to drag out our collective demise
        > on
        > > > > this planet the
        > > > > > alternatives are two: reduce the amount of per capita
        > energy
        > > > > consumption,
        > > > > > which is a social, political, and economic challenge; or
        > cap
        > > > > / reduce the
        > > > > > number of people, which is a moral issue. The two are
        > > > > intertwined. Those
        > > > > > who benefit through consumption and, as a result, consume
        > > > > the most are
        > > > > > loathe to change a system that gave them power and
        > wealth.
        > > > > Also, the system
        > > > > > is designed to keep the vast majority chronically
        > > > > disadvantaged so they are
        > > > > &g; poorly positioned to disrupt the system. However, just
        > > > > like Marie
        > > > > > Antoinette could not be influenced to associate her
        > > > > affluence, privilege,
        > > > > > and separateness in the ruling class with the worsening
        > > > > condition of the
        > > > > > uncared for masses would eventually seed civil unrest and
        > > > > revolution,
        > > > > > members of the dominant culture today are content to say
        > the
        > > > > contemporary
        > > > > > version of, "Let them eat cake!"
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > So, we experiment with economic and political systems
        > that
        > > > > are counter to
        > > > > > the dominant culture in an effort to find better ways.
        > And
        > > > > we will, too.
        > > > > > It is imperative for life from this planet to persist out
        > > > > there long after
        > > > > > this planet is gone. And just like moving people from
        > option
        > > > > one to option
        > > > > > two mentioned beforehand, we present clear evidence of
        > what
        > > > > steps to take,
        > > > > > the benefits that course of action offers, and ease with
        > > > > which it can be
        > > > > > done to enroll folks one at a time in the doing life
        > > > > togetherd ifferently
        > > > > > and better. It boils down to the two immutable constants
        > of
        > > > > the universe
        > > > > > are change and interdependence. These two are the most
        > > > > powerful forces no
        > > > > > matter what system is in place-as a result, they make
        > the best
        > > > > > "bridge-building" material to get people to come across.
        > > > > Besides, I am
        > > > > > tired of being fed cake!
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Best regards,
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Steve B.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > _____
        > > > > >
        > > > > > From: globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
        > [mailto:globalvilla
        > > > > ges@yahoogroups. com]
        > > > > > On Behalf Of Tom Wayburn
        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 12:21 PM
        > > > > > To: globalvillages@ yahoogroups. com
        > > > > > Subject: [globalvillages] SPAM-LOW: Re: a mutltitude of
        > > > > silver bullets are
        > > > > > out there
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > To Jeff, Steve, Benoit, and everyone else,
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I am most grateful for the reponse of everyone to my
        > plea for
        > > > > > sustainability. I know we all want to solve this problem
        > and
        > > > > do whatever
        > > > > > is best. Because of the length of this thread, I will
        > start
        > > > > over again with
        > > > > > comments on a couple of Jeff's remarks:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In particular, I wish to remind everyone that with
        > respect
        > > > > to abandoning
        > > > > > artificial economic contingency and eliminating the
        > profit
        > > > > motive I wrote,
        > > > > > "This is the one point upon which there can be no
        > > > > compromise." Change,
        > > > > > therefore, can come about in at least two ways that I
        > have
        > > > > considered. As
        > > > > > in Mexico, change can come by revolution, if it comes to
        > > > > that in Mexico.
        > > > > > Whoever will sway the great crowds of people necessary to
        > > > > overthrow an
        > > > > > empire must undoubtedly inculcate something like
        > religious
        > > > > fervor.
        > > > > > Alternatively, change can come by means of an intentional
        > > > > community either
        > > > > > concentrated within definite boundaries or distributed as
        > > > > far as possible in
        > > > > > a network of e ople who are willing to participate in an
        > > > > alternative
        > > > > > economic system as in the community currency movement.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I hope Jeff will excuse my misunderstanding of
        > SolaRoofs. I
        > > > > have done a
        > > > > > quick calculation concerning power density of
        > concentrated
        > > > > solar power
        > > > > > (CSP). If I remember correctly, a 500MW CSP installation
        > for
        > > > > the desert was
        > > > > > supposed to occupy 1500 acres. Since a 1000 MW nuclear
        > power
        > > > > installation
        > > > > > occupies 300 acres, CSP has one-tenth the power density
        > of
        > > > > nuclear;
        > > > > > therefore, the remarks on area for sufficient nuclear
        > power
        > > > > to maintain a
        > > > > > capitalist economy, which cannot exist without growth
        > > > > http://dematerialis
        > > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/On% 20Capitalism2.
        > > > > html#_Toc1418671 51>
        > > > > > m.net/On%20Capitali sm2.html# _Toc141867151 , I made at
        > > > > http://dematerialis
        > > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/CwC. html#_Land>
        > m.net/CwC.html#
        > > > > _Land and at The
        > > > > > Ten Point Pla Results in a Nuclear Society in
        > > > > http://dematerialis
        > > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/CwC. html#_Land>
        > m.net/CwC.html
        > > > > apply except much
        > > > > > sooner. It looks like a good option for a natural economy
        > > > > however, i.e., an
        > > > > > steady-state economy without a profit motive. Comparison
        > of
        > > > > the four types
        > > > > > of political economies considered in http://dematerialis
        > > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/Mark- II-Economy. html>
        > > > > m.net/Mark-II- Economy.html
        > > > > > were done earlier in http://dematerialis
        > > > > > <http://dematerialis m.net/CwC. html#_Land>
        > m.net/CwC.html
        > > > > starting with
        > > > > > actual US economic data taken principally from the DOE.
        > > > > Therefore, if one
        > > > > > takes the two studies together, one can be reasonably
        > > > > certain of my
        > > > > > conclusions. In fact, I have adjusted the conservation
        > data in
        > > > > > http://dematerialis <http://dematerialis m.net/Mark-
        > > > > II-Economy- New.xls>
        > > > > > m.net/Mark-II- Economy-New. xls once agan to try to
        > falsify
        > > > > my own conclusion
        > > > > > and ratify Jeff's to no avail. However, I come much
        > closer.
        > > > > Still, the
        > > > > > steady-state market economy uses 1.73 times Maximum
        > > > > Renewables and the
        > > > > > natural economy requires only 80% of Maximum Renewables.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas
        > > > > > http://dematerialis <http://dematerialis m.net/> m.net/
        > > > > > http://dematerialis <http://dematerialis m.blogspot.
        > com/>
        > > > > m.blogspot.com/
        > > > > >
        > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
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        > > > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release
        > > > > Date: 12/09/2006
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
        > > > >
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        > Date:
        > > > 12/09/2006
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Richard Nelson
        > solaroof@...
        > http://www.solaroof.org
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solaroof
        > http://www.solaroof.org/wiki/SolaRoofGuy/Welcome
        > Together we can BUILD a sustainable future
        > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
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        >
        >
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