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Re: A Dilemma - What is the Mind's connection to the Atama ?

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  • pratapbhatt
    Dear Sadhaka, Namaste! When one investigates Atman described in scriptures, one may find that it is the self evident feeling of Existence I AM in us! This is
    Message 1 of 5 , May 19, 2007
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      Thank you for the responses, however I am still unclear. Whether the same mind, which had prompted to do good or bad acts will be in the new body acquired by the soul? If not then who will get the fruit of the deeds of mind after death (heaven/hell) or after rebirth when the soul will change the new body like cloths?Of course the body will be destroyed. Body can not get the fruit. Ultimately the soul has to bear the fruit. If not then who will get the fruit and how?I am still confused. Regards,Sant Shree Hari ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!

      When one investigates Atman described in scriptures, one may find that it is the self evident feeling of Existence I AM in us! This is also Witnessing Presence within us. In its presence only mind-body organism experience this world. Atman is pure light in which everything shines. But mind-stuff-Antahkaran(intellect, ego, memory) which constitute subtle body conditioned by gunas and environment, thinks it is a separate independent entity and thus acts as if it is the Doer of karmas. This doer which is in fact only a mind based identity(I-thought in mind and I-feelings in body) accumulates karma-falas in ignorance of Atman being its only reality! Atman witnesses actions performed by an apparant person, the results of which obtained according to laws of nature! Nothing is personal about this doer. So if before the death this person does not know he/she is Atman, obviously the subtle body assumes another body to continue on and on as an individual until he/she realizes his/her reality being that which is free of birth and death,  the Existence Absolute,  Never not Existing and all Intelligence, Pure Consciousness, Impersonal and Limitless in nature!

      When mind realizes its reality being such, it resolves into its source Atman and only the practical functional aspect of mind remains until body's death, and the person is known as  Jivan Mukta. 

      To sum up, the body appears in mind as perceptions of feelings and thoughts, and mind in turn appears in Atman as subtle antahkaran having no reality of its own but assumes it is the doer in ignorance and goes thru cycle of birth and death until...........!

      Saadar Pranam... Pratap

      --- In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sant Shree Hari <SantShreeHari@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear all,
      >
      > One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question by saying that the man
      > commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on the directions of the
      > mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin? As the mind can not take
      > rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is imperishable and get new
      > body after the present body is destroyed. Whether the same mind will be in
      > the new body? If not how the same mind will be treated for its sinful act
      > after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind is under control of the
      > soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of the soul "I" and any act
      > done by the mind is act of the soul "I". As I (soul) never die, only it
      > changes the body, it has to face the consequences of its deed of the
      > previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my this logic. Now I am also
      > confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the Sadhak?
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Sant Shree Hari
      >
      > Ram Ram
      > from MODERATOR
      > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.
      > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to
      > substantiate the response
      > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to
      > twenty line maximum, if possible).
      > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.
      > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations
      > 5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone
      > number, address etc.
      > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,
      > since the message is going to the entire group.
      > 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.
      > 8. Moderator may modify the message before posting when content is not clear.
      > MODERATOR
      > Ram Ram
      >

    • Pratap Bhatt
      Dear Sadhaka, Namaste! Question is asked for clarification whether it is the same mind that remains when soul acquires a new body-mind. ( ref: explanaton given
      Message 2 of 5 , May 20, 2007
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        Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!
        Question is asked for clarification whether it is the
        same mind that remains when soul acquires a new
        body-mind. ( ref: explanaton given earlier).
        It is the same mind-stuff, yes! By mind-stuff is meant
        subtle body(sukshma Sharira) which goes along with all
        conditioning(papas/punyas/unfulfilled desires, fears)
        acquired during the life lived by a person in
        ignorance* of its true indentity. This subtle body
        becomes, so to speak, new body's sukshama sharira in
        turn. Thus cycle of birth and death continues in
        suffering until person realizes his/her true identity
        being Atman in some human birth and thus liberated. At
        death of such an apparant person subtle body-mind
        still may take birth in a new body but it is free of
        suffering and engaged generally in liberation of other
        lives that crosses his/her path.
        Namaskar.... pratap
        *Ignorance is that person calls this subtle body-mind
        as him/her during the life assuming doership of
        karmas.
        The subtle body is in fact a mere appearance in Atman
        like a cloud in the sky of Atman.

        This subtle body-mind-stuff may be referred to as Soul
        who undergoes the cycle of birth and death. And
        sometimes is referred to as pure soul which is Atman.
        Soul is not a proper translation of Atman which is
        pure existence-consciousness-bliss.
        Thanks.. Pratap
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

        What I read into your message - "Mind goes through rebirth until it realizes Atma as the Self and is not deluded by ego and perceptions thereafter." Is this correct?

        Hemendra Parikh
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Let me give you another lead. As I said there are 4 bodies (Sharir). Take that as an example in Bulb, Wires, Switch and Electricity. Bulb in the example, is the Sthool Sharir (Gross Body, which has a name such as A.H.Dalmia). Wires are the Sookshma Sharir (Subtle Body, the mind). Switch is the Karan Sharir. Finally Electricity is the Atma. You will kindly see that without the electricity all the other three can not perform any function.

        To give you a straight answer, it is the mind that goes from death to birth in various bodies. Here I would like to clarify that it is the "Kartritva Abhiman" that is the real reason for "Karma Phal".

        A.H.Dalmia
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        --- pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt@...> wrote:

        > Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!
        >
        > When one investigates Atman described in scriptures,
        > one may find that
        > it is the self evident feeling of Existence I AM in
        > us! This is also
        > Witnessing Presence within us. In its presence only
        > mind-body organism
        > experience this world. Atman is pure light in which
        > everything shines.
        > But mind-stuff-Antahkaran(intellect, ego, memory)
        > which constitute
        > subtle body conditioned by gunas and environment,
        > thinks it is a
        > separate independent entity and thus acts as if it
        > is the Doer of
        > karmas. This doer which is in fact only a mind based
        > identity(I-thought
        > in mind and I-feelings in body) accumulates
        > karma-falas in ignorance of
        > Atman being its only reality! Atman witnesses
        > actions performed by an
        > apparant person, the results of which obtained
        > according to laws of
        > nature! Nothing is personal about this doer. So if
        > before the death this
        > person does not know he/she is Atman, obviously the
        > subtle body assumes
        > another body to continue on and on as an individual
        > until he/she
        > realizes his/her reality being that which is free of
        > birth and death,
        > the Existence Absolute, Never not Existing and all
        > Intelligence, Pure
        > Consciousness, Impersonal and Limitless in nature!
        >
        > When mind realizes its reality being such, it
        > resolves into its source
        > Atman and only the practical functional aspect of
        > mind remains until
        > body's death, and the person is known as Jivan
        > Mukta.
        >
        > To sum up, the body appears in mind as perceptions
        > of feelings and
        > thoughts, and mind in turn appears in Atman as
        > subtle antahkaran having
        > no reality of its own but assumes it is the doer in
        > ignorance and goes
        > thru cycle of birth and death until...........!
        >
        > Saadar Pranam... Pratap
        >
        > --- In gita-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sant Shree Hari
        > <SantShreeHari@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear all,
        > >
        > > One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question
        > by saying that the
        > man
        > > commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on
        > the directions of
        > the
        > > mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin?
        > As the mind can not
        > take
        > > rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is
        > imperishable and get
        > new
        > > body after the present body is destroyed. Whether
        > the same mind will
        > be in
        > > the new body? If not how the same mind will be
        > treated for its sinful
        > act
        > > after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind
        > is under control of
        > the
        > > soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of
        > the soul "I" and
        > any act
        > > done by the mind is act of the soul "I". As I
        > (soul) never die, only
        > it
        > > changes the body, it has to face the consequences
        > of its deed of the
        > > previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my
        > this logic. Now I am
        > also
        > > confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the
        > Sadhak?
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Sant Shree Hari
        > >
        > > Ram Ram
        > > from MODERATOR
        > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk
        > discussions.
        > > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other
        > scriptures to
        > > substantiate the response
        > > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the
        > point. (Up to
        > > twenty line maximum, if possible).
        > > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.
        > > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or
        > other organizations
        > > 5. Please do not include your personal information
        > such as phone
        > > number, address etc.
        > > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a
        > particular individual,
        > > since the message is going to the entire group.
        > > 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses
        > will be posted.
        > > 8. Moderator may modify the message before posting
        > when content is not
        > clear.
        > > MODERATOR
        > > Ram Ram
        > >
        >
        >
        >




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      • L. R. Resources, Inc.
        Human body is dress of a soul. When a soul takes rebirth by entering into a new womb, all that changes is the body and the soul remains the same. The process
        Message 3 of 5 , May 22, 2007
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          Human body is dress of a soul. When a soul takes rebirth by entering into a new womb, all that changes is the body and the soul remains the same. The process can be easily compared to a process in our daily of changing clothes. We are same no matter what kind, color of clothes we wear. Only our appearance changes. A person with lot of intellectual knowledge like Vishwamitra, Maharishi Vyas, they used to recognized the person's soul not the outside appearance of the human body.
           
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Dear Sadhaka, Namaste! Soul/mind enters the womb to take rebirth doesn't mean soul is something that enters a physical womb like a stick enters a jug. It means Atman which is like a light ever shining everything and nothing and in which a body-mind-sense-intellect complex(subtle body) manifests. The mixture of such body and Atman creates a center which is illusory Ego/soul/mind/Jiva assuming reality borrowed from Atman light, considers itself as person, individual. In Atman light which is undivided all such illusory persons appear to take births and dying. It is important to note the light is not responsible for sins commited by such illusory persons taking him/her to be real. it is this ignorance-doership on his/her part that commits karma/sins/punyas in its limited free will. Love Divine... Pratap ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Prabhuji,

          First of all I want to clarify that Atma is not in the body, but body is in Atma. You may like to recall the example of "Ghatakash". It looks that Akash is in the pot and the same merges with the Akash outside when the pot breaks. Atma is Omni Present, which "Mind" (Sookshma Sharir) is not. Hence it is not right to say that soul (Atma) takes re-birth. Atma is "PURE CONCIOUSNESS" or "GYAN" ( remember Pragyanam Brahma, Ayam Atma Brahma). Hence there is no question of Atma taking rebirth. Please remember that the main reason for the death and birth cycle is kartritva abhiman, which leaves imprint in the mind. That is why Lord has ordered to do the karma without attachment. Please for goodness sake do not confuse between Atma and Mind. They are separate entities. "Atm" is only the "Drashta" and "Mind" is the "Karta". Hence, there can be no suffering in Atma.

          A.H.Dalmia

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [gita-talk] Re: A Dilemma - What is the Mind'sconnectiontotheAtama ?

           
          PLEASE SEE MY FOLLOW UP QUERY / COMMENTS IN RED... EMBEDDED IN THE RESPONSES BELOW.

          Sant Shree Hari

          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:21 AM
          Subject: Re: [gita-talk] Re: A Dilemma - What is the Mind's connection totheAtama ?
           
          It means when the soul take rebirth by entering in to womb, the same mind also accompany it.
          It clears that mind and soul is same or if they are separate, they are moving together even
          after death of a body. (please confirm the understanding)
          Regards,
          Sant Shree Hari

          Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!
          Question is asked for clarification whether it is the
          same mind that remains when soul acquires a new
          body-mind. ( ref: explanaton given earlier).
          It is the same mind-stuff, yes! By mind-stuff is meant
          subtle body(sukshma Sharira) which goes along with all
          conditioning( papas/punyas/ unfulfilled desires, fears)
          acquired during the life lived by a person in
          ignorance* of its true indentity. This subtle body
          becomes, so to speak, new body's sukshama sharira in
          turn. Thus cycle of birth and death continues in
          suffering until person realizes his/her true identity
          being Atman in some human birth and thus liberated. At
          death of such an apparant person subtle body-mind
          still may take birth in a new body but it is free of
          suffering and engaged generally in liberation of other
          lives that crosses his/her path.
          Namaskar.... pratap
          *Ignorance is that person calls this subtle body-mind
          as him/her during the life assuming doership of
          karmas.
          The subtle body is in fact a mere appearance in Atman
          like a cloud in the sky of Atman.

          This subtle body-mind-stuff may be referred to as Soul
          who undergoes the cycle of birth and death. And
          sometimes is referred to as pure soul which is Atman.
          Soul is not a proper translation of Atman which is
          pure existence-conscious ness-bliss.
          Thanks.. Pratap
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          What I read into your message - "Mind goes through rebirth until it realizes Atma as the Self and is not deluded by ego and perceptions thereafter." Is this correct?


          Yes Sir, I think mind is soul (Atma). Soul takes rebirth so same mind is there.

          Originating place of mind and soul is heart.

          Regards,

          Sant Shree Hari


          Hemendra Parikh
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          Let me give you another lead. As I said there are 4 bodies (Sharir). Take that as an example in Bulb, Wires, Switch and Electricity. Bulb in the example, is the Sthool Sharir (Gross Body, which has a name such as A.H.Dalmia). Wires are the Sookshma Sharir (Subtle Body, the mind). Switch is the Karan Sharir. Finally Electricity is the Atma. You will kindly see that without the electricity all the other three can not perform any function.

          Yes Sir,

          Similarly without Soul (Atama),  mind can not do sin (can not function). Hence Souls is responsible for all sins drived through the mind and its outcomes.

          Regards,

          Sant Shree Hari

          To give you a straight answer, it is the mind that goes from death to birth in various bodies. Here I would like to clarify that it is the "Kartritva Abhiman" that is the real reason for "Karma Phal".

          A.H.Dalmia
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
          --- pratapbhatt <pratapbhatt@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          > Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!
          >
          > When one investigates Atman described in scriptures,
          > one may find that
          > it is the self evident feeling of Existence I AM in
          > us! This is also
          > Witnessing Presence within us. In its presence only
          > mind-body organism
          > experience this world. Atman is pure light in which
          > everything shines.
          > But mind-stuff-Antahkar an(intellect, ego, memory)
          > which constitute
          > subtle body conditioned by gunas and environment,
          > thinks it is a
          > separate independent entity and thus acts as if it
          > is the Doer of
          > karmas. This doer which is in fact only a mind based
          > identity(I-thought
          > in mind and I-feelings in body) accumulates
          > karma-falas in ignorance of
          > Atman being its only reality! Atman witnesses
          > actions performed by an
          > apparant person, the results of which obtained
          > according to laws of
          > nature! Nothing is personal about this doer. So if
          > before the death this
          > person does not know he/she is Atman, obviously the
          > subtle body assumes
          > another body to continue on and on as an individual
          > until he/she
          > realizes his/her reality being that which is free of
          > birth and death,
          > the Existence Absolute, Never not Existing and all
          > Intelligence, Pure
          > Consciousness, Impersonal and Limitless in nature!
          >
          > When mind realizes its reality being such, it
          > resolves into its source
          > Atman and only the practical functional aspect of
          > mind remains until
          > body's death, and the person is known as Jivan
          > Mukta.
          >
          > To sum up, the body appears in mind as perceptions
          > of feelings and
          > thoughts, and mind in turn appears in Atman as
          > subtle antahkaran having
          > no reality of its own but assumes it is the doer in
          > ignorance and goes
          > thru cycle of birth and death until....... ....!
          >
          > Saadar Pranam... Pratap
          >
          > --- In gita-talk@yahoogrou ps.com, Sant Shree Hari
          > <SantShreeHari@ ...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear all,
          > >
          > > One of the aspirant (SADHAK) asked me a question
          > by saying that the
          > man
          > > commits sin by virtue of his entire body acting on
          > the directions of
          > the
          > > mind (mana) then who is responsible for the sin?
          > As the mind can not
          > take
          > > rebirth, how it can be punished? Atama (soul) is
          > imperishable and get
          > new
          > > body after the present body is destroyed. Whether
          > the same mind will
          > be in
          > > the new body? If not how the same mind will be
          > treated for its sinful
          > act
          > > after ones death or rebirth? I told him that mind
          > is under control of
          > the
          > > soul (Atama).In other words mind is the replica of
          > the soul "I" and
          > any act
          > > done by the mind is act of the soul "I". As I
          > (soul) never die, only
          > it
          > > changes the body, it has to face the consequences
          > of its deed of the
          > > previous life. The Sadhak is not convinced by my
          > this logic. Now I am
          > also
          > > confused. Please guide me how can I satisfy the
          > Sadhak?
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Sant Shree Hari
          > >
          > > Ram Ram
          > > from MODERATOR
          > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk
          > discussions.
          > > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other
          > scriptures to
          > > substantiate the response
          > > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the
          > point. (Up to
          > > twenty line maximum, if possible).
          > > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.
          > > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or
          > other organizations
          > > 5. Please do not include your personal information
          > such as phone
          > > number, address etc.
          > > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a
          > particular individual,
          > > since the message is going to the entire group.
          > > 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses
          > will be posted.
          > > 8. Moderator may modify the message before posting
          > when content is not
          > clear.
          > > MODERATOR
          > > Ram Ram
          > >
          >
          >

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