Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [gita-talk] Enjoyment of Pleasures - An Obstacle to God Realization ?

Expand Messages
  • Bharathi
    This is my humble opinion. Gita 4:26 and 27 indicate - 4.26: Some again offer hearing and other senses as sacrifice in the fire-of-restraint;others offer sound
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 28, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      This is my humble opinion.
      In Chapter 4:26 and 27, it goes like this.
      4.26: Some again offer hearing and other senses as sacrifice in the fire-of-restraint;others offer sound and other objects as senses as sacrifice in the fire-of-senses.
      4.27:Others again sacrifice all the functions of the senses, and the functions of the breadth (vital energy) in the fire of the Yoga of self-restraint,kindled by knowledge/contemplation.
       
      In 4th chapter, it discusses 14 paths for the realization or Self or Realisation of God (as many people call as God Realization).
       
      It all depends on the person/personality and inclination.
       
      As in above verses, some people sacrifice at the level of senses (physical body) and restrain themselves of any physical activity or actions . Others sacrifice at the mental level. So, just follow the path which suits your personality.
       
      Also in your actions, it is important to discrimiate  whether we are going in the rigth path or not, we can remember  3rd Chapter that says..karma yoga (do not expect the fruits of the results of ur actions). By not expecting fruits of actions, we definitely will not involve in the actions which may hurt others or ourselves too ..since most of the time if we are involved in certain things (which we feel wrong in our heart), usually we would be expecting something selfish for ourselves. When that selfish desire is absent, whatever our actions become pure.
       
      The truth of the matter is we do not need any external entity to make us happy.At the mental level, we can see ourselves as mere observer in this world even though we act, we must understand that we are not the doer. Let us therefore surrender our actions to that LORD as He is everything and pervades everything.
       
      Have a nice evening.
      Regards.


      sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@...> wrote:
      Shree Hari

      Alterations and changes in the inner faculty take place, but in
      attainment of God, none of these alterations (vikaar) are considered
      to be obstacles. On the other the enjoyment of pleasures
      (bhogaasakti) have been considered to be an obstacle in God
      Realization. Of these two points that have been revealed, which one is true?

      Anonymous

      Ram Ram
      from MODERATOR
      The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.
      1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other scriptures to
      substantiate the response
      2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to
      twenty line maximum, if possible).
      3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.
      4. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations
      5. Please do not include your personal information such as phone
      number, address etc.
      6. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual,
      since the message is going to the entire group.
      7. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.
      MODERATOR
      Ram Ram



      Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
      Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

    • Pratap Bhatt
      Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! As I understand, the root of all obstacles in attainment of God* is the Ego! By Ego what is really meant is the belief that I exist
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 29, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
        As I understand, the root of all obstacles in
        attainment of God* is the Ego! By Ego what is really
        meant is the belief that "I" exist as independent and
        separate entity who is the doer of all deeds, enjoyer
        of bhogas. This belief keeps the pursuits of seeking
        pleasures/avoiding pains going all through the life.
        In God attainment the INNER faculty-
        antahkaran(mind-intellect-chit-Aham) has to find
        FREEDOM from this belief of separate
        entity/doership/enjoyership. We have to be convinced
        beyond a shadow of doubt that God is running this
        show(Jagat) by using all of us(bodies-minds) as
        instruments! We are not the Doer, nor Enjoyer! We are
        the Joy itself, not an entity who enjoys!
        Sense pleasures make us extrovert and keep us glued to
        external objects-world. This keeps feeding our wrong
        belief of being enjoyer(Bhogi). We mistakenly think
        such pleasures are in the objects-world. Since objects
        themselves are limited, we can never be fulfilled
        completely by any or all objects. That is why seeking
        bhogaashakti-sensual pleasures become obstacles!
        Saadar Pranaam....Pratap
        *It is important, I think, to know that by God
        attaintment is meant that we realize we are in
        ourselves Love, Peace, Bliss, Compassion, Beauty
        Experience, not experiencers!

        --- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@...> wrote:

        > Shree Hari
        >
        > Alterations and changes in the inner faculty take
        > place, but in
        > attainment of God, none of these alterations
        > (vikaar) are considered
        > to be obstacles. On the other the enjoyment of
        > pleasures
        > (bhogaasakti) have been considered to be an obstacle
        > in God
        > Realization. Of these two points that have been
        > revealed, which one is true?
        >
        > Anonymous
        >
        >
        > Ram Ram
        > from MODERATOR
        > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk
        > discussions.
        > 1. Wherever possible, please quote Gita or other
        > scriptures to
        > substantiate the response
        > 2. Kindly make your responses concise and to the
        > point. (Up to
        > twenty line maximum, if possible).
        > 3. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.
        > 4. Please do not include links to other sites or
        > other organizations
        > 5. Please do not include your personal information
        > such as phone
        > number, address etc.
        > 6. Kindly do not address the response to a
        > particular individual,
        > since the message is going to the entire group.
        > 7. Due to a large readership, not all responses will
        > be posted.
        > MODERATOR
        > Ram Ram
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Classyoga@aol.com
        If this group is really about Hinduism, then there will be no talk of God Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak of Brahman Realization, or Atman
        Message 3 of 9 , May 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          If this group is really about Hinduism, then there will be no talk of "God" Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak of Brahman Realization, or Atmana Realization, or Siva or Vishnu Realization?
           
          Swami Param




          See what's free at AOL.com.
        • Pratap Bhatt
          Dear Sadhakas, Namasteji. I humbly submit I don t understand the implications of comments on there will be no talk of GOD if this group is really about
          Message 4 of 9 , May 6, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Sadhakas, Namasteji.
            I humbly submit I don't understand the implications of
            comments on "there will be no talk of 'GOD' if this
            group is really about Hinduism.
            I think most of us in the group use word God in the
            same spirit as in Siva, Vishnu, Brahman. At least I
            do.
            1)Does it really mean we should not use the word "God"
            because we 'think' we are Hindu?
            2)Because Christian groups don't speak about Brahman,
            Vishnu, Shiva; don't their usage of word God point to
            same Reality as pointed out by Shiva or Vishnu?
            3)Are we really, really Hindu or Christian or Muslim
            or anything we believe ourselves to be?
            4)Shouldn't we go beyond our separate and therefore
            mistaken identity of being this or that?
            5)I think the teaching of Gita, Vedanta, Puranas etc
            have universal appeal and anyone can learn to go
            beyond all isms and realize in this life what we truly
            are.
            Saadar Namaskar... Pratap


            --- Classyoga@... wrote:

            > If this group is really about Hinduism, then there
            > will be no talk of "God"
            > Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak of
            > Brahman Realization, or
            > Atman Realization, or Siva or Vishnu Realization?
            >
            > Swami Param
          • Dr Ian Buckley
            Swami Param wrote: If this group is really about Hinduism, then there will be no talk of God Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak of Brahman
            Message 5 of 9 , May 6, 2007
            • 0 Attachment

              Swami Param wrote: ‘If this group is really about Hinduism, then there will be no talk of "God" Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak of Brahman Realization, or Atmana Realization, or Siva or Vishnu Realization?’

               

              I have to say that I found this contribution less than helpful. These are, after all, only names. We should borrow from the Tao Te Ching the realisation that ‘the name that can be named is not the eternal name’ … and Zen tells us wisely not to confuse the moon with the finger pointing at the moon.
              Dr Ian Buckley
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Ishwar is the word used for ultimate creation of the universe, which is also can be called Aum, Bhagawan and some other words in Sanskrit which is Omnipotant, Omni present, Omniscent . Which is considered to be regulating the motion of Sun, moon, stars and every life which exist in the universe.
              Now, God is the English word which references to some higher power than Human. That is why often they refer to My God and your God. In Movie ' Ten Commandments" they are referring Egyptians God and Jewish God.
              Yesterday an old religious lady, Lutheran asked me who is my God?
              Thus when they use word " GOD' They do not think of him/her as one for all of us. They mean all religions have different Gods.
              From my experience it would be very difficult for western religions and peoples to understand the concept of Ishwar. In fact they are not able to grasp the concept of manifestation of Brahman.
              Harilal Patel
            • Bala N. Aiyer
              Yes ! Language and words are just a mode of communication and identification to create an understanding between a group of human beings. When we speak in
              Message 6 of 9 , May 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes ! Language and words are just a mode of communication and identification to create an understanding between a group of human beings. When we speak in various Indian Languages, the name of the supreme can be called in any of the thousands of Names.

                In fact, in Vishnu Sahasranama, The Supreme is addressed in 1008 names, still, Siva tells Parvathi, that the Supreme can be addressed just as "Rama". Saivites address the Divine as Siva or one of His Thousands of Names. This is the greatness of Hindu Dharma. Various languages give different names. Vaishnavites and Bhagavat Gita readers will address as Krishna or Narayan to refer to the same. If Swami Param speaks in Hindi or Sanskrit the name can be Ishwar or Bhagwan, but when I talk in Tamil the same Supreme becomes "KADAVUL" or "ANDAVAN". Even Ishwar in in Hindi becomes Ishwara in Samskritham and Bhagwaan is Bhagawaan.

                The idea is that when we address in English language we can still keep the word simple as "GOD" very simple to coney the meaning and represent for "Generator, Observer and Dissolver". It would be closed mined to restrict one name to the all powerful. Same answer for Hindu Dharma vs Sanatana Dharma and Vaidheeha Dharma.

                Namaskaram,
                With best regards,
                Bala N. Aiyer.

                --- Dr Ian Buckley <ianbuckley@...> wrote:

                > Swami Param wrote: 'If this group is really about Hinduism, then there
                > will be no talk of "God" Realization. Do you think Christian groups
                > speak of Brahman Realization, or Atmana Realization, or Siva or Vishnu
                > Realization?'
                >
                > I have to say that I found this contribution less than helpful. These
                > are, after all, only names. We should borrow from the Tao Te Ching the
                > realisation that 'the name that can be named is not the eternal name' .
                > and Zen tells us wisely not to confuse the moon with the finger pointing
                > at the moon.
              • Madan kaura
                Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear fellow Sadhakas, Thanks to Dr. Ian Buckley for bringing up this important point, the response to the subject question Enjoyment of
                Message 7 of 9 , May 7, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Shree Hari
                   
                  Ram Ram
                   
                  Dear fellow Sadhakas,
                   
                  When we speak about Enjoyment of Pleasures, believe it is meant to be worldly pleasures. Why the pleasures have to be shunned because the nature of these pleasures is temporary and they are followed by pain only as compared to the blissful state of a Brahm Jnani or an Ardent Devotee of God. Many places in Gitaji, this question has been addressed, few of the related verses are:   
                   
                  (Gita 5-22)
                  "Ye hi samsparha bhoga dukhayonaya eva te
                            ady anta vantah kaunteya na tesu ramate budhah"
                  MEANING - The pleasures that are born of attachment (with objects), are only sources of pain, these have a beginning and an end, O son of Kaunti (Arjuna), no wise man rejoices in them. 
                   
                  (Gita 18-37) 
                  "Yat tad agre visham iva pariname 'mrtptopamam
                         tat sukham sattvikkam proktam atmabudhiparsadajam"
                  Meaning - That happiness which is like poison in the beginning and like nectar in the end, born of blissful knowledge of the self, that happiness is Sattvic.
                   
                  (Gita 18-38)
                  "Vishaindriyasamyogad yat tad agre 'mrtopamam
                         pariname visham iva tat sukham rajasam smrtam"
                  MEANING - That joy which is derived from the contact of the senses with their objects, at first is like nectar and is like poison in the end, such happiness is said to be Rajasic.
                   
                  (Gita 6-22)
                  "Yam labdhva ca param labham manyate na 'dhikam tatah
                        yasmin sthito na dukhena guruna 'pi vichalyate"
                  MEANING - Having obtained that which he thinks there is no greater gain than, established therein, he is not shaken by the heaviest affliction.
                   
                  Pls. refer to Swami Maharaj's Sadhaka Sanjivani for detailed comments on these verses.
                  On a side note: Thanks for bringing up this important point, the response to the subject question "Enjoyment of Pleasures - An Obstacle to God Realization" has no direct relationship with the question. 
                   
                  Our moderators have sent us Guide Lines from time to time to remind us - how the responses should be addressed on the Gita-talk. Believe, it is very important to stay focused in our responses to the questions, specially, in this era of high volume of e-mails and people having only limited time to read. Suggest we should not place our moderators in a difficult spot where they may be forced to refrain from posting a response which does not meet the Guide Lines
                  Ram Ram
                   
                  Loving pranam
                  A sadhaka    
                   
                  Dr Ian Buckley <ianbuckley@...> wrote:
                   _Swami Param wrote: ‘If this group is really about Hinduism, then there will be no talk of "God" Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak of Brahman Realization, or Atmana Realization, or Siva or Vishnu Realization?’
                   
                  I have to say that I found this contribution less than helpful. These are, after all, only names. We should borrow from the Tao Te Ching the realisation that ‘the name that can be named is not the eternal name’ … and Zen tells us wisely not to confuse the moon with the finger pointing at the moon.
                  Dr Ian Buckley
                  Ishwar is the word used for ultimate creation of the universe, which is also can be called Aum, Bhagawan and some other words in Sanskrit which is Omnipotant, Omni present, Omniscent . Which is considered to be regulating the motion of Sun, moon, stars and every life which exist in the universe.
                  Now, God is the English word which references to some higher power than Human. That is why often they refer to My God and your God. In Movie ' Ten Commandments" they are referring Egyptians God and Jewish God.
                  Yesterday an old religious lady, Lutheran asked me who is my God?
                  Thus when they use word " GOD' They do not think of him/her as one for all of us. They mean all religions have different Gods.
                  From my experience it would be very difficult for western religions and peoples to understand the concept of Ishwar. In fact they are not able to grasp the concept of manifestation of Brahman.
                • npanda@ntpceoc.co.in
                  ... MENTAL PLEASURE WITHOUT ANY ATTACHMENTS BRINGS HAPPINESS. INRECENT TIMES 99.9%OF PEOPLE ARE ENGAGED FOR BODYPLEASURE.THERE ARE ONLY LITTLE FEW WHO ARE
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 10, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > Swami Param wrote: 'If this group is really about Hinduism, then there
                    > will be no talk of "God" Realization. Do you think Christian groups speak
                    > of Brahman Realization, or Atmana Realization, or Siva or Vishnu
                    > Realization?'
                    >
                    > I have to say that I found this contribution less than helpful. These are,
                    > after all, only names. We should borrow from the Tao Te Ching the
                    > realisation that 'the name that can be named is not the eternal name' .
                    > and Zen tells us wisely not to confuse the moon with the finger pointing
                    > at the moon.
                    > ENJOYMENT OF BODY PLEASURE BRINGS UNHAPPINESS WHEREAS ENJOYMENT OF
                    MENTAL PLEASURE WITHOUT ANY ATTACHMENTS BRINGS HAPPINESS. INRECENT TIMES
                    99.9%OF PEOPLE ARE ENGAGED FOR BODYPLEASURE.THERE ARE ONLY LITTLE FEW
                    WHO ARE ENGAGED IN UNATTACHED PLEASURE AND THEY DO NOT HANKER FOR POWER
                    OR MONEY .YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN IN TVs THE STING OPERATION BY IBN 7 ON
                    SOME YOGIS HOW THEY ARE BUSY TO ACCUMULATE MONEY.THIS TYPE OF GREED YOU
                    CAN FIND IN EACH SOCIETY IN RECENT YEARS.NO POWERFUL/AUTHORITY/RICH IS
                    BOTHERED FOR OTHERS AND THEY HAVE CHANGED THE IDEALS OF RIGHTOUSNESS
                    PREACHED BY GREAT SAGES.HOW TO REFORM POWERFUL PEOPLE?
                    REGARDS
                    N.PANDA
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.