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Re: Other's Rights and Our Duties - Your Insights

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  • sadhak_insight
    Shree Hari Ram Ram Please share your thoughts keeping Gita Verses, Brevity, Relevancy and Respect for All in the forefront. Please revisit the group s
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 28, 2009

      Shree Hari   Ram Ram

      Please share your thoughts keeping Gita Verses,  Brevity, Relevancy and Respect for All in the forefront.   Please revisit the group's guidelines before posting response.   

      Gita Talk Moderators,   Ram Ram 

      ==================================

      Respected Sirs,
      There is a logical flaw in this reasoning. If no one asserted his RIGHTS how would others know what their DUTIES are? If, for instance, Indians had not asserted their RIGHT to rule themselves, how would the British have known that it was their DUTY to quit India and allow Indians to exercise their right to govern themselves. Mahatma Gandhi was a wise man but people  have introduced legislation  (which is being constantly extended)  laying down the fundamental rights of all human beings, and they, taken collectively, are wiser even than Mahatma Gandhi.
      Respectfully,
      Jasmer Singh

      ============================================

      NEW POSTING

      narayan narayan

      Swamiji has said,  remain ever alert / careful, and what happens leave it up to the Lord.   Fulfill your duties,  and do not have your attention on other's duties.  If you have your sight on other's duties, then you yourself will be spoiled (rather not be focused on your own duties).   The reason why this birth has been taken by you, make it your support for your ultimate goal,  that itself is your duty.  

      IN HINDI 

      swamiji ne kaha hein karne me savdhan raho our honi uper wale pe chood do.
      apna kartavya nibhavo dosro ke kartavya per dhayan mat do .agar dusro ke kartavya per dhayan denge to khud bigad gavoge.jis ke liye janam liya hein us janam ko sarthak kardo.ye hi aapka kartavya he duty hein.
      RAMCHANDRA

      ------------------------------------------------------

      Hari Om

      Not only one should refrain from wishing/understanding/speaking/doing bad with reference to others; but similarly one should not think so about him/her self also. Neither in self nor in others.

      As regards the Arjuna fighting with Bhisma/Drona etc, it was his duty to so. Still before the war started he took blessings of both. He did not fight with them, he fought with injustice, adharma. In fact 100 times more powerful arguments were given by Arjuna to Lord Krishna against non fighting. Krishna replied correctly to his queries in Gita, stated how those were wrong, and adviced correctly to Arjuna.

      Referring to another message, the pride of giving without expecting anything in return is in fact a 'self respect' in the truest meaning of the world. The definition of 'self respect' given by Swamiji is the pride of doing one's duty correctly. Jeeva must have 'self respect' - there is nothing wrong in the same.

      Pranaams to all sadhaks.
      Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

      Narottam

      -------------------------------------------------------

      Reverend Sirs,
      Excuse my persistence: but there can be no "duty " without a  "right" vested in  someone just as there can be no "up" without a "down", or a "right" without a "left" with respect to something. Thus, when we are told that Gandhiji (who was a lawyer and should not have been mistaken on this point) says
      "Human beings have no RIGHTS. They have only DUTIES"  it leaves one perplexed. Gandhiji's message must therefore be interpreted as meaning that  human-beings themselves  have no rights because their only duties are towards GOD  and therefore their duties towards other human beings are only a reflection of their duties towards GOD.
      But, as a considerable portion even of Indian philosophy (example Buddhism) proceeds without the assumption of the existence of GOD, if these Gita Discussions are to be of interest to all, believers and non believers alike,  then the assumption of the existence of GOD should not be brought into the picture. We could simply say, as do the Buddhists, that all human-beings have the common duty towards others (and thus towards themselves) of alleviating human suffering and that, correlatively with this, all human beings have a common right to expect a helping hand in this respect from all other human beings.
      Respectfully,
      Jasmer Singh

      ---------------------------------------------------------


      Jai Hanuman

      Though I don't agree fully with the message, but there is a lot of truth in the following statement:

      Quote
      The Idea of Karma Yoga is interesting because it makes it possible to bridge the gap between believers and non believers and this bridging of the gap is of vital importance because the majority of the scientifically educated people in the world today are non believers, but are not necessarily, for that reason, bad people.
      Unquote

      In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are 'laukik' (worldly) striving (sadhana). Karma/Jnana Yoga can be practiced till completion (Equanimity/Disconnection with inert).... without even thinking a little about God and without believing in existence of God at all. They are scientific processes in themselves. They have support of truthful laws and principles. Both Karma Yogi and Jnana Yogi target 'disconnection' with world.

      But I don't agree people can ever be 'non-believers'. Better expression is not exercising the power to believe with reference to God. Else, you can not, however 'scientifically educated' you may be, remain without exercising your power of belief. You do it constantly in your daily worldly life. Hence you are never a non believer totally. You may not be believing in God. But you have power to believe in tact - applied wrongly.

      The following is not at all a correct statement:

      Quote
      Ego is not, and can not, be destroyed, but is placed elsewhere; pride is not, and can not be, destroyed, but is given another direction.
      Unquote

      The ego/pride can only get extinguished. Nothing else can happen to it ! Because it never exists, it is only assumed. Had it not been possible how could Lord Krishna state that to be goal for a Jeeva in Gita?

      Beauty of Gitaji is that it applies to all- entire humanity. Whichever way you go... . However you are ... Believer, non believer, half believer ..!

      Namaste Jee

      Jee Jee
      Shashikala

      ----------------------------------------------------

      -Shree Hari-

      Namaste!

       I would like to reflect upon a line written by Jee Jee Shashikala Jee, it reflects what appears to me, from my short time at this site, to be about the most contentious issue!

      Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form as far he is concerned - irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled - he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

      When I wrote reflect that is what I meant! I do not have knowledge of the scriptures attesting to that statement. I did reflect in the Gitaji, did not see any direct connection, (proves nothing, as I am not fully versed in the  Bhagavad Gita).

      So I reflected on my experience and some by some Sadhaks.
      As a backdrop for my reflections I found two interesting Shlokas:
      Bhagavadgita Chapter 8 :27
      Knowing these two paths in essence, O Partha , no Yogi is delude. Therefore O Arjuna, be saturated with Yoga, at all times. (Swamiji's comments on the above I believe supports my thoughts  i.e. detaching from the fruit of actions etc).
      Chapter 10 : 20
      I am the self, O conquerer of sleep, seated in the hearts  of all beings. I am the  beginning the middle and the end of all creation.

      A Sadhak, had suffered brutality and cruelty, (one of several  that wrote  in), but this Sadhak  had taken on her mother who was no longer  in control of her faculties. This Sadhak had chosen the higher path of light!
      Could have walked away, sought the bright lights, the low/dark path!
      From my suffering, I was able to give to my sons that which I was denied. Two paths opened up, to perpetuate this cruel lunacy, or to transmute it into love. I chose the latter, well not chose it was automatic!
      So referring to the Shloka 10 : 20 these mutual actions of myself and the Sadhak I mentioned, was revealed to us in our actions. Quite a revelation to me I  can tell you!

      These are my humble refections.

      Om.... Shanti....

      Mike (K).

      -------------------------------------------------------------

      Jai Hanuman

      Continuing my insights on the subject of Selfless Service -

      I generally felt that even very good people can not easily 'renounce' money with the fear that it will be lost forever. They will talk sweet but will hugely hesitate in parting with money even when sicknesses, marriages, deaths etc are there in family. They start bringing out their versions of what according to them is duty.

      But this is not true. Exactly reverse is the scenario. Said Swamiji once: The moment you renounce money , at that moment itself the prarabdha (destiny) for much more money to you gets written. (Receipt of money in future gets guaranteed there). A Renouncer is seen with rare riches in his possession. The giver of money is never deficient.

      Hence service without expectation does not go rewardless from worldly point of view also. Only direct corelation is not visible to the. 'worldly' mind/intellect.

      Our experience suggests that we struggled hugely with finances, but we were never never deficient of money when needed !! Money whenever needed was always received dot on time. World gave money. So this fear should never be there in sadhaks, it is not actually so !! No doubt on that ! We must renounce fearlessly.

      There is another Law supporting this law that 'by giving ,you never actually become deficient ' . In fact, for your sadhana , the renouncing of the worldly things for others is the saadhan, and it is a law that - Whatever is necessary for you to do your kalyaan ( Liberation) is available with you. Hence it is the duty of the Law of Nature and God Himself to make available to you what is needed for your liberation. .

      Why we should look at the duty of others? We don't become deficient by spending on others. We gain. Our own duty is helping us. Why a wife should be concerned as to what is the duty of her husband towards her? By doing her own duty only she can gain. There is no other way of gaining.

      Why a husband should do so ? He should act as a loving bridge between his wife and parents- cracking jokes, before both of them and keep doing what he considers is his duty ? Where is the obstacle to him by his parents or by his wife? He has a double duty. He is to serve his wife as well as his parents and he is to earn also from outside the home. Wife is the Queen of the home. She is 'Annapurna' ! She is the feeder to all connected with the home ! She does more work than you do. She is duty bound to remain always with you. She is a much much bigger renouncer than you can ever imagine to be, leave aside actually being. So serve both.

      Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form- irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled- he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

      Where then is the scope for thinking even about the duty of others? Thus doing only your duty and not looking at others' duty generates imperishable gains for you. Peace for you . Liberation for you.


      Namaste Jee

      Jee Jee
      Shashikala

      -----------------------------------------------

      Shree Hari
      Ram Ram
      Brother Jasmer Singhji, that which is in nature innately takes its course. 
      when a child is hungry and even if it does not cry, mother begins to feed it as her breasts begin to ooze with milk.  What?  Did your son or daughter tell you to love them?   Without any spoken words, you began to love them.  It is therefore to be understood, that duty is not done only upon someone saying something has to be done.  It simply gets done, and the one it gets done for, he is the rightful recipient of that .  
      so be it,
      Vineet Sarvottam   
       
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Hari Om

      Sadhak Sridharji Pant. The very first talk of Karma Yoga in Gita starts with 'Karmanye vaa dhikaraste...' ( 2:47) . You have right 'to do' . In fact you have only 3 rights (powers) - to do something, to know something, to believe something. There is no fourth right or power which SELF has got. You are supposed to exercise your 'right to do' by doing for others ( not for yourself) ; your 'right to know' for knowing yourself ( not for knowing others) and your 'right to believe' in placing your belief in your own Paramatma ( not for world/ not your own) !!

      Pranaams to all Sadhaks.
      Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

      Narottam

      ------------------------------------------------------------------

      Jai Hanuman

      Frankly I could never understand the very wisdom behind- 'looking at the duty of others' from the worldly perspective too, what to talk from sadhana prospective. I have seen a lot of quarrels in families due to this fruitless activity- unnecessary quarrels of being critical or judger or evaluater of the conduct of others.

      In fact, our own duty only helps us. Why a wife should be concerned as to what is the duty of her husband towards her and towards his parents ? By doing her own duty only she can gain. There is no other way of gaining.

      Why a husband should do so ? He should always act as a loving bridge between his wife and parents- cracking jokes before both of them, keeping both in good humor... and keep doing what he considers is his duty ! Where is the obstacle to him in this way of behaviour ? He has multiple duties. Wife is the Queen of the home. She is 'Annapurna'- feeder to all ! A 'home' is only a 'home' when there is wife inside it. Else where is the very 'home'? - it may be a hotel, an inn, a guest house, a math, a house, an ashram, a tabela, a stable, a den, a lair ....but not a 'home' unless in that a wife is present. She does more work than you do. Their goals may be same, but duties are different. Where is the clash then? She is a much much bigger renouncer than you can ever imagine to be, leave aside actually being. So serve both and earn too !

      Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form as far he is concerned - irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled - he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

      Where then is the scope for thinking even about the duty of others? In which worldly relationship ? Thus doing only your duty and not looking at others' duty generates imperishable gains for you.

      Namaste Jee

      Jee Jee
      Shashikala

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Hari Om

      The sadhana for Karma Yoga makes you see no faults in others. I learnt a very strange but true law. Law is - If You think someone to be bad, that person will become bad ! How strange a law ! Reason: You are 'satya sankalp' ! You are part of God. If you think that someone is bad, he and you both become bad. You immediately for all , he.. vis-a-vis you !! This is an experience I am sharing with sadhaks.

      Hence real Karma Yoga means - NOT wishing/understanding/speaking/doing bad to others by mind/speech/body. This ultimate principle of Karma Yoga makes you effortlessly /egolessly doing good only. Either you will not do anything ( and thereby realise God- as God is realised ONLY by non-doing, never by doing) or you shall become 'sarva bhoot hite rata' ( again a necessity under all 3 yogas for Self/ God Realisation ) !! You assume universality when you don't wish/understand/do bad to others. You can say even to any person anywhere (to all known or unknown persons ) : Sir ! I did not do anything wrong to you ! But can you say so to all : Sir ! I did good you ? No ! You become limited when you set your eye on 'doing good'. But you assume unlimitedness , when you decide " I shall not wish/understand/do/talk bad to/for/about others" ! You , Divine Sadhaks, are UNLIMITED, UNIVERSAL, by your very form and nature.

      Pranaams to all sadhaks.
      Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

      Narottam

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Respected Sadhaks, I do firmly believe that one has to respect his mother, father and Guru. But in connection with tracing the relationship between rights and duties I everytime reading Geeta, that I do every day as the first task, I am reminded of the fact that if it was my duty then it was the duty of Arjuna too not to fight Bhism (his grandfather) or Dronacharyam his Guru. Obviously in practice under the guidence of Shri Krishna he faught Bhism and the great spritualist Udhister lied or managed that only half sentence is herd by his Guru. In this context I am perplexed finding out what is right and what is duty.Was not  the rght of Bhism to be respected by his progeny?

      Will someone kindly enlighten me?
      Shridhar Pant
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Reverend Sirs,
      The Idea of Karma Yoga is interesting because it makes it possible to bridge the gap between believers and non believers and this bridging of the gap is of vital importance because the majority of the scientifically educated people in the world today are non believers, but are not necessarily, for that reason, bad people. They also wish to live in a happier world free of conflict but at the same time in a world free of merely tradition based imaginary creations.  In scientific terms Karma Yoga has a name:  "sublimation of an instinctual drive".  Ego is not, and can not, be destroyed, but is placed elsewhere; pride is not, and can not be, destroyed, but is given another direction. One takes PRIDE now in giving without receiving anything in return, but that nevertheless is PRIDE.
      Respectfully,
      Jasmer Singh
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Hari Om

      The core principle of Karma Yoga is - I don't have to do anything for myself. I am complete in myself. I don't need anything for myself. I have got everything including this body/mind/intellect, worldly things, money,health, wealth, power, position etc - from world only. Let me selflessly employ the same in the service of the world.

      When you do as above- in the end world ( things/body you have) gets employed in the world ( in service of others)only

      - and you being SELF remain behind 'unattached' - peaceful , useful to all and not causing any problem to anyone.

      You become 'Shaant'. (peaceful- because association with world only caused lack of peace and as renunciation instantly results into peace. You have also become 'asang' (disconnected from inert) ! The bondage of 'mineness' (mamata) has broken. You are free. Thus you have become

      1 'nirmam' (mamataless- It is a law that - Selfless Service destroys mamata);

      2 'nirahankaar' (egoless - It is a law that if 'mamata' is gone, me-ness (ego) goes with it, automatically ) ;

      3 'nispruh'/ 'nishkaam' (not worrying for self maintenance. You do not need anything for yourself . You are renouncer of them. World starts taking care of you )

      4 'pumanscharati' - a free man wandering - ( nothing remains to be done, the very desire 'to do something ' extinguishes). You are 'Liberated' You are free. You have no bondage. You have nothing left to do.

      Thereby , exactly meeting the yardsticks set in BG 2:71 and thus gaining SHAANT RAS ( The Nectar of Bliss and Peace) . Side by side you have also known that after knowing which nothing remains to be known. Further, You have become SARVA BHOOT HITE RATAA . You may still be doing Lok Sangrah but actually You are LIBERATED WHILE LIVING ! Unattached.

      So simple, so easy to implement, so logical, so practical, ... VILAKSHAN are the formulae given by Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for benefit of humanity at large. Look at the definition of DUTY by Swamiji - What you can do and what you should do.

      Now tell me what is so difficult about "Only selflessly doing what is your duty, and not looking at the duty of others"? Just by doing this simple thing, Divine Sadhaks, you get LIBERATED !

      What is needed. A bhava only. Just a resolution, an inner bhava. If you can believe me, believe .. Nothing more than this simple decision is needed. Rest everything is arranged automatically by Laws of Nature. You simply act with this motive and do your duty with whatever you have !

      What Saints and Sages do not give to the humanity at large ? They give every thing which they have. Everything !! Nothing they keep with them. Nothing !! Swamiji gave, gave and gave and kept on giving ! He gave only to the world. Only He gave !

      Liberation ! Peace !!

      Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

      Narottam

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------

      Dear sadaks,
      All human beings know what is duty. Now a days duty without bribe is not working. Very rare is duty conscience man. Such a rare man We can easily know that he has faith on Bagavan and so he is dutiful. Then doing duty is HIS divine grace alone. However we may think to be dutiful, HIS grace needed. Simple Example: Arjuna wanted to do his duty, but without Sri Krishna it would not have been success. So think of HIM at all times and duty performs on its own.
      B.Sathyanarayan

      ------------------------------------------------------

       

      Will any Sadhak help me understand the use of word right (Adhikar). The little I have read the Scriptures I could not find the term right. Everywhere be it in Vedas, Ramayan or Mahabharat including GEETA I

      find talk about duties. In Geeta Shri Krishna asks Arjun to perform his duty. Nowhere he talks about rights. Any quote on the point will help. Some Sadhak has said even Gandhi ji said humans have duties, no rights. Kindly help.

      Shridhar Pant

      -----------------------------------------------------

      Jai Hanuman

      Continuing my insights on the subject of Selfless Service -

      I generally felt that even very good people can not easily 'renounce' money with the fear that it will be lost forever. They will talk sweet but will hugely hesitate in parting with money even when sicknesses, marriages, deaths etc are there in family. They start bringing out their versions of what according to them is duty.

      But this is not true. Exactly reverse is the scenario. Said Swamiji once: The moment you renounce money , at that moment itself the prarabdha (destiny) for much more money to you gets written. (Receipt of money in future gets guaranteed there). A Renouncer is seen with rare riches in his possession. The giver of money is never deficient.

      Hence service without expectation does not go rewardless from worldly point of view also. Only direct corelation is not visible to the. 'worldly' mind/intellect.

      Our experience suggests that we struggled hugely with finances, but we were never never deficient of money when needed !! Money whenever needed was always received dot on time. World gave money. So this fear should never be there in sadhaks, it is not actually so !! No doubt on that ! We must renounce fearlessly.

      There is another Law supporting this law that 'by giving ,you never actually become deficient ' . In fact, for your sadhana , the renouncing of the worldly things for others is the saadhan, and it is a law that - Whatever is necessary for you to do your kalyaan ( Liberation) is available with you. Hence it is the duty of the Law of Nature and God Himself to make available to you what is needed for your liberation. .


      Namaste Jee

      Jee Jee
      Shashikala


      -------------------------------------------------------------------

      When one does not seek release, fulfilment through results- there arises action, which is complete.
      When one understands that uncertainty as to results can not be solved as 0f now (that is, at the action point).
      The energy is concentrated. There arises action, which is relaxed, not binding.
      The question of duties, responsibilities, rights has no use. It is conflict in itself.
      The System is self sustained.
      Y V Chawla

      --------------------------------------------------

      Hari Om

      I have a little bit of experience of practicing Karma Yoga as taught by Swamiji. An experience of nearly 25 years.
      This principle doing one's duty and not looking at other's duty ( service ) is... a beauty ! It works wonders in making family life, surroundings dutiful and peaceful. IT ACTS VERY FAST. Entire kalah (fighting) ends. The very cause of quarrelling takes a hit. Egos stop clashing at home. Most of quarrels take place because : Not my duty, your duty. You acted so, hence I did so. Do I not have not any rights? Who is more important to you me or they? I also want to take some rest. Am I donkey? Why he is not working? Why did you marry me, if parents are important to you ? What is my importance ? Etc. But as you keep serving, those family members with bad habits, silently start improving their habits... More you serve without 'mineness' to them, more their nature improves.. and then come to your support many such subtle laws which are associated with Karma Yoga.

      Like: By genuine 'service'... There arises a willingness in that 'other' to his duty also diligently. Yes! This is a principle narrated by Swamiji.. I saw it meticulously operating in household. By doing your duty diligently, demi Gods become happy. Your debts keep reducing and you keep getting longer and longer runs/periods of 'peace'- (Shaant Ras)- as renouncing (tyaag) becomes your daily routine. Your own "mamata" (mineness) reduces drastically with service ( This principle of Swamiji: Service destroys Mamata- was not understood by me for a long time, but it is perfectly correct ) ! Reduction in Mamata is direct reduction of ego ! Your 'svabhav' becomes purer and purer. The others stop appearing 'bad' to you. You start appreciating/seeing only good in them. The household turns into a temple. In due course, all start doing their duties, without looking at other's duties. Children pick the threads and their 'samskaras' get purer and purer.... In the end :

      A Karma Yogi becomes darling of all surrounding him . He has nothing to do but keeps doing as a habit. World starts taking care of him. Family worries excessively about him- after all he has been a consistent giver of pleasure to them. Family members INVARIABLY develop a strong emotion of 'giving to him' ! Everybody becomes happy to give to him. He becomes a treasure for his family and surroundings. More he renounces the things, more eager the worldly things become to come near him. A stage comes when all want to give to other. No body likes to take. ( In the words of Sarvottamji- all in home become 'sadhaks').

      Dukhalayam turns into Vasudev Sarvam.

      All because he did his duty and did not look at the duty of others. He stopped understanding/wishing/doing bad to others.

      Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

      Narottam

      --------------------------------------------

      Jai Hanuman

      Question seeks 'insights' on the subject of service. Let me give my experiences. Karma Yoga is stated to be almost extinct in Gita. Why ? Because now-a-days most of the couples do not even understand what is 'marriage'. The Q of then their understanding as to what is 'family' does not arise !! Karma Yoga is a primarily family related sadhana.

      I perfectly agree with Brother Mike Keenor. In fact, we, while being in family, have encountered situations where the servicee was totally disrespectful, but as service to him as per principles was necessary and it was rendered. Later on, as reality dawned upon the servicee, his sentiments changed so much that even to lift his eyes before us became difficult for him. That is the real charishma of service as per Karma Yoga principles. Selfless service, certainly, changes the servicee.

      In fact Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj once told us that those who carry ill will clearly against you, they should be particularly served, doubly served !! If your service goes unappreciated, you are in fact better off. We now know this fact very well. In family, issues of others not appreciating (rather disrespecting) service towards them arise quite frequently. Generally in families, a lot of quarrels and unrest takes place on this count. But principles taught by Swamiji do not recommend even your expecting slightest of respect for your doing duty.

      The fact is that your walking on the path of selfless service gets fiercely tested. (How Laws of Nature ensure that ? ... I don't know .. But, I must say, it is an amazingly accurate process ). Once we really felt shocked and pained when our service was met with total and unbearable insult. Seeing us sad, my Mum- in- Law said:

      Donot reduce the value of your Rupee ( quality of service) to a few paisas by expecting praise/acknowledgement ! Let Rupee remain Rupee.

      Hearing the above, we instantly became pleased. Instead of hatred and disgust, a real happiness and peace came into mind.

      Divine Sadhaks ! As Sarvottamji told : We must become "sadhaks". A sadhak gives and only gives. When you want to "take" and not "give" ( or give only when you receive) then only you become, say, a "husband hater" or "wife abuser" in family !!

      Namaste Jee

      Jee Jee
      Shashikala
      ----------------------------------
      Shree Hari  

      Ram Ram 

      IN ENGLISH

      "That which is other's rights (adhikaar) , that itself is our duty"  (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 44).  Where there is talk of taking, there rights are exerted.   This "gita-talk" group is for spiritual aspirants (saadhak).   Now when does a man become a aspirant (saadhak),  regarding this Swamiji has said - when "I do not want to take anything, rather I only want to give and give. -  On having this thought, man becomes a saadhak."   (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 174].  

      Regarding "Others's rights and our duty" after this explaination too is there anything more remaining to be known? 

      So be it,  Vineet Sarvottam

      IN HINDI

      Jo Doosero that adhikaar hota hai, wohi hamaaraa kartavya hota hai.   (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 44).  Jahaan lene ki baat aati hai, wahaan adhikaar kaa prayog kiyaa jaataa hai.  Yeh 'gita-talk' sadhakon kaa samooh (group) hai.  Manushya kab saadhak ban jaataa hai iske baare mein Swamiji kaa kahanaa hai, "Mereko kuch lenaa nahin hai, pratyuk denaa hi denaa hai - aisaa vichaar karnese manushya saadhak ban jaataa hai. " (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 174].  

      Kyaa ab bhi "dooseresaa adhikaar aur humaaraa kartavya" ke baare mein jaananaa shesh rahaa?  

      Astu,

      Vineet Sarvottam

      ------------------------------------------

      -Shree Hari-

      I cannot get away, from the original post, and Srimadbhagavadgita 3: 21 : Whatsoever an ideal person does he is followed by others,  as well . Whatever the standard he sets the, world follows the same

      Mahatma Gandhi led the Dandi march from his Sabarmati Ashram to Dandi, Gujarat to produce salt without paying the tax, with growing numbers of Indians joining him along the way.

      He saw that the people of his land were ruled by tyranny, he was a soul that had the great gift to inspire, Mahatma Gandhi, served!

      The mind set of asserting ones rights can lead to very long conflicts, but to get along doing ones duty, single pointedly, bamboozles tyrants, and Gandhi demonstrated that so well!

      Om... Shanti...

      Mike Keenor

      ----------------------------------------------------

      Namaskar!
      Thank you very much.!
      Shubheccha to all members!
      Dr. Shriniwas Janardan Kashalikar
       
      -----------------------------------------------------
      Shree Hari  Ram Ram
      Swamiji says , from a sadhak's perspective, the minute we look at the duties of another, we fall from our own duties.   The root cause of conflicts, friction, disorder is, that people demand their rights, but they do not perform their duty.  Simply speaking,  let us not be affected by others and let us do our duties well, then this world (society, community) will become a better place.  Because the amazing thing that Gitaji and Swamiji have clarified for us is that by performing our duties, a spiritual aspirant safeguards the rights of others.   We do not need others to tell us about their rights (adhikaar).  How powerful is our role,  and how easily we can accomplish it.   The art of Karma Yoga - (Discipline of Action).... Sadhak Sanjivini - Verse 3/10 and 11 are worth reading.      Meera Das,  Ram Ram  
       
      ------------------------------------------------
      Hari Om

      What is stated by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is the core of Karma Yoga (KY) and nectar of Gitaji. The fundamental of KY lies in the fact that we are born "bondaged" as a human…to pay back what we have received and get liberated upon extinguishment of our debts.  A KY therefore RENOUNCES his own rights over the others, and diligently protects the rights of others over himself. That right of others over one self is called DUTY. It is always UNCONDITIONAL, and imposed upon you by the others. It is never bi-lateral and SELF ASSUMED. The principle is- Repay your debts  BY SERVICE without expecting anything in return;  don't take new debts by exercising or desiring to exercise your rights over others…. If you do so…what else can be the end result except your LIBERATION ? THERE IS SIMPLE  RATIONALE. VERY VERY VALID AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND.    Repay old debts; do not take new debts…get FREE. Simple logic, ideal way of living in the world.

       Swamiji also defined DUTY for benefit of humanity at large: DUTY is what you CAN do; and what you SHOULD do. Here the terms CAN and SHOULD both should be there to constitute DUTY. As a result…Duty is NEVER NEVER difficult. DUTY never requires more from the world. Whatever you have is sufficient to perform your duty. For example: It is your duty to pay for education of your child. You SHOULD. But inspite of doing karma in just  and valid manner,  if you don't have money with you to pay…it is not your duty. Similarly, your wife demands something unreasonable from you…say  not taking care of  your  parents. You CAN do so, but  whether you SHOULD? No !  Hence that is not your DUTY.  On CAN front…the availability of worldly things, time, money , etc play a predominant role. On SHOULD front , you are fully justified in relying upon Scriptures ( BG 16:24), and on your own CONSCIENCE (viveka) !

      Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

      Narottam

      -----------------------------------------

      Karmanyavaadhikaara ste maa phaleshu kadaachanaa  |  (Gita 2/47)

      You have the right to perform your duties only, and not to it's fruits. <<

      Perhaps a better translation of Adhikara here is "control".

      We have control over what we do. We have no control over the fruits (results). Don't be pre-occupied with things you have no control on. Don't be lazy, because you have no control on the result.

      If we have no control on results, then what or who decides the outcome of all actions- good and bad?
      Five factors determine the result as discussed in BG 18:13-15.
      Timing, individual, tools, how rools are applied and unknown causes (providence).

      Important thing to remember is, if we do good, even if we don't se good result right away, we will be rewarded next time around (next life).
      "nahi kalyANa kRit kaschit durgatim taata gachCHati" as we see in the Gita Ji.

      Koti Sreekrishna  (KST)
      ------------------------------------------------

       

      ---------------------------------------------------

      Somerset Maugham, the famous British writer, once sent letters to important personalities of the world. "What are the rights of human being?"

      Gandhiji's response was a single sentence, "Human beings have no RIGHTS. They have only DUTIES".
       
      A thousand words will not improve upon this!
      Ramesh Chitnis
      ---------------
       
      || Shree Hari ||
      Ram Ram
       
      Other's Rights are Our Duties 

      There is one very important point.  Other's rights on us, that alone is our duty.  Just as doing something that is beneficial to others is our duty and it is the entitlement of others.  To serve the mother and father, to give them happiness is the duty of the son, and is the entitlement (adhikaar) of the mother and father.  Similarly, to provide for and to protect the son is the duty of the mother and father and the entitlement of the son.  To serve the Guru, to follow through with his words is the duty of a disciple and it is the rights of a Guru.  Similarly wiping out the disciple's ignorance, and to make him realize God is the duty of a Guru and the entitlement of a disciple.  In other words, through the fulfillment of a man's duties, he must protect the rights of others.  The man who looks at other people's duties and what he is entitled to receive, he strays away from his own duties.  Therefore man has to give up his entitlements, and he has to perform his duties with all his might, for protection of fair rights of others.  To see to other's duty and to hold on to our own rights is the main reason for fall in this life and beyond.   The cause for lack of peace, quarrels (kalaha), conflicts (sangharsh) that are seen in the present times,  is this alone, that men demand their rights, but they do not fulfill their duties.   Therefore Gita says - 

      Karmanyavaadhikaara ste maa phaleshu kadaachanaa  |  (Gita 2/47) 

      You have the right to perform your duties only, and not to it's fruits. 

      In this world those that are considered eminent, pioneers, dominant leaders, masters, main educators, trainers, topmost speakers, chiefs, foremost in their particular field, there lies a great responsibility on them to educate others to see to the well-being and benefit of others.  For them Gita says - 

      Yadyadaacharati shreshstattdevetaro janah  | 

      sa yatpramaanam kurute lokastdanuvartate  ||  (Gita 3/21) 

      Whatever is the conduct of great men, other men do just the same, and whatever he says, others do according to what he says."

      In this verse, regarding the subject of a great man's conduct the words "yat yat" "tat tat"  and "eva" these five words have come; but with respect to man's speech, only the following two words have been used "yat" and "tat".   The point here is that man's conduct has five times (more) the impact on other men, and man's spoken words have two times the affect (significantly lesser).  That man who himself does not do his duty, but only by his speech, advices and lectures others to follow his advice, does not have any significant impact or affect on others. Advice and lectures have an impact, an affect only when the one giving the lecture remains free of desires and his conduct is according to the scriptures and he remains within the established limits and boundaries (lok maryaadaa). Therefore Bhagwaan gives His own example that for him there is nothing to do, nor is there anything to acquire in the three worlds.   He says - Even then, I fulfill my duties according to My manifestation on this earth. If I did not perform My duties carefully and with alertness and without any inertia, then those that have faith and belief in Me, they too will start to behave in the same manner.  In other words, they too will act without much thought, without much cautiousness, neglecting their duties, and the end result of that will be their downfall (Gita 3/22-23)

      From "Kalyaan Path" in Hindi pg 128 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

      Ram Ram   

      -------------------------------------------

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    • sadhak_insight
      Shree Hari Ram Ram Please share your thoughts keeping Gita Verses, Brevity, Relevancy and Respect for All in the forefront. Please revisit the group s
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 10, 2010

        Shree Hari   Ram Ram

        Please share your thoughts keeping Gita Verses,  Brevity, Relevancy and Respect for All in the forefront.   Please revisit the group's guidelines before posting response.   

        Gita Talk Moderators,   Ram Ram 

        ==================================

        Respected Sirs,
        There is a logical flaw in this reasoning. If no one asserted his RIGHTS how would others know what their DUTIES are? If, for instance, Indians had not asserted their RIGHT to rule themselves, how would the British have known that it was their DUTY to quit India and allow Indians to exercise their right to govern themselves. Mahatma Gandhi was a wise man but people  have introduced legislation  (which is being constantly extended)  laying down the fundamental rights of all human beings, and they, taken collectively, are wiser even than Mahatma Gandhi.
        Respectfully,
        Jasmer Singh

        ============================================

        NEW POSTING

        Hari Om

        Sadhak Jasmerji ! You are right that there can't be a duty without a right. Here your right is "to do something". (BG 2:47) It is with reference to that right, the duties are there- "to do that after doing which the very desire to do extinguishes"- To do what you CAN and what you SHOULD. Hence there is a desire existing, there is a right (power) existing, and there is a duty existing. There is a difference between these 3 terms.

        But you are not right in the following statement:

        "all human beings have a common right to expect a helping hand in this respect from all other human beings."

        Duty is unilateral. It is your individual. It has no corelation with the duties of others. Even otherwise your duty is right of others. Duty is doing yourself. "Expectation of helping hand" means duty is dependent on others. Duty is of 'independent doer' (Svantrah Karta- Karta is always independent) ! In any case, Duty essentially is expectationless.

        There is a difference between desire and duty. I will reflect better perhaps if you can let me know as to how in your view welfare of a child is desire as well as duty.

        As regards 'belief '- This Divine GT Satsanga has provided you answer in the same posting. See how divine this Forum is !

        God is also a "disinterested friend".

        Thus, Gitaji, the teachings of Saints and Sages of Sanatan Dharma like Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, and all Sanatan Dharma Scriptures ARE UNIVERSALLY APPLICABLE TO ENTIRE HUMANITY. After all - Sanatan Dharma is eternal.

        There is no need hence of your even thinking about the God upto MOKSHA LEVEL (Liberation/Freedom/Emancipation/ Mukti) .

        Pranaams to all sadhaks.
        Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

        Narottam

        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        Let us be clear about onething at the outset.

        WE HAVE NO RIGHTS; ONLY DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE CREATION AND THE
        CREATOR. OUR RIGHT IS NOT TO BE WRONG TO ANY FELLOW BEING. IT IS CRUELLEST OF
        FOLLIES TO ASSUME THAT WE, THE HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR TO OTHER SPECIES AND HENCE
        HAVE A RIGHT O BE MASTERS OF HIS CREATION. DOING OR DISCHARGING OUR DUTY
        PROPERLY ASSURES THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS. cONFINING OUR ENJOYMENT TO WHAT IS
        ALLOTTED TO US (BY EESAA VAASYA, THE ORDAIN OF THE LORD) AND NOT ENCROACHING ON
        OTHERS' TERRITORIES IS OUR JOB.

        EESAA VAASYAM IDAM SARVAM, YAT KINCITJAGATYAAM JAGAT
        TENA TYAKTENA BHUNJEEDHAA, MAA GRIDHAH KASYASI ADDANAM

        IS THE VERY FIRST MANTRA OS THE UPANISHAT.

        We the humans have forgotten this, rather ignored this. We encroached into
        others' territories. We occupied forests, driving animals to which they belong
        to we fell trees making birds and monkeys homeless. We build factories that
        pollute grazing lands of cows and such. By stealing what is others, human is a
        thief and terrorist. He is destroying the earth and planning to do the same to
        other planets. Let us recall one stanza from Maha Bhaarata (not BHaarat).

        ORULEYAVI ONARINCINA NARAVARA APRIYAMBAGU TANA MANAMBUNAKU DAA
        NORULAKU NAVI KUNIKI PARAAYANAMBU PARAMA DHARMAMBULAKELL

        tHIS IS TOLD BY bHEESHMA TO dHARMAJA IN sANTI pARVA. It mens, in brief,
        NOT DOING TO OTHERS THAT WHICH IF DONE BY THEM TO YOU WILL HURT YOUR MANA IS THE
        MOST IMPORTANT DHARMA SOOTRA.

        The sentence is aphoristic. All Paapa (not sin) and dushkriti will vanish from
        the face of earth if HUMANS stick to this principle.

        Krishna Samudrala

        ---------------------------------------------------------------

        Dear Sadaks,
        A child around 7 years of age, how it behaves? Does it have desires (except playing)? Does it takes revenge? Does it worry for tomorrow? Does it not help anyone without see any Dhosa? Does it not forgets what the other child abused or quarreled? Does it think it is it` s duty in all actions it performs? Even it does NOT think this should be left to God and that should be performed as a duty. So on and on---. Be so in mind.
        B.Sathyanarayan

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        Jai Hanuman

        Gandhiji was right when he stated - You have only duties and no rights. Your rights are subject matter of relinquishment (tyaag). The rights of others are to be protected. Your Rights exist, no doubt, but they have no corelation with what you can do and what you should do viz with your Duty.

        Your connection with Paramatma is ever existing, and is not dependent upon your believing it to be so. Like: If you close your eyes , it does not mean that Sun is not existing. HOWEVER, You are independent, fully justified, and free to be a believer in God or to be not - because "Duty" has corelation with "power/right to do something" ... The power of belief is not a primary power operating there. Holy Gita gives to all a way out... Believer, non-believer, right believer, wrong believer .... Exercising right to do... or to know ... or to believe !!

        Brother Mike Keenor, in his heart felt reflections shared benevolently for Satsanga, has rightly drawn attention to this primary/secondary power vis a vis duty. In fact my reasoning gave rather more emphasis to the "power of belief" than to "power to do" and to 'Shruti' part more as the topic there was - Need to look at duty of others.

        Duty is - What you CAN do and what you SHOULD do. Here what you CAN do may get invoked. If the circumstances are such that you CANNOT do certain ideal deeds, you need not. Because you can not. But if you can , you should obey your parents and treat them as the highest for you. In abusive, severe environment certainly one CAN NOT do what he/she SHOULD.

        Every worldly relationship is contractual obligation. Every relationship is a bondage. In fact there is a definite and certain debt upon you of father. ( Pitri Rin) Every relationship is a debt upon you. Every relationship entails duties. Your goal is to sever that relationship. That severance (disconnection) takes place only when you do your duty - expectationless service. Old debts repaid, new debts not taken.

        Yardstick? Destruction of Mamata. There is no guilt, fear, shame, regret, ... Once the relationship has 'apparently' come to an end. There is no emotion of disgust, hatred, I could have done this... I could have done that ... Only sweet, affectionate, compassionate remembrance... Only understanding...No one is or was or can be bad... All are good.. All at inner sentiment level !! All Divine play !!!

        Jagat.... Jeeva....Jagdish.

        Namaste Jee

        Jee Jee
        Shashikala

        ------------------------------------------------------------------

        Dear Truth Seekers/Lovers!
        I think if one opens up to what Jasmer Singh is saying, it makes sense from another point of view. Duty connotes a sense of "doing something" for someone as someone has some kind of right or expectations etc. It is not necessary that other has right or he/she needs to exercise it, but one can always think other has a right or I have obligation to help and therefore I consider it a duty. This is what is meant generally by "duty"!
        Also in duty it is implied that "I have to do it" even if I don't want to!

        Now why would I feel duty-bound if I don't see it as someone's right or my obligation?

        Suppose no one has any right over me, I can still feel need to help out of love and not necessarily out of duty.

        In other words, Love, not duty, would be more appropriate response when no rights or obligations are involved!

        Now think this way: If I feel Love for a person, don't I rush to help regardless of my duty or person's right?
        Love is more powerful than a sense of duty. Love moves mountain if it has to.
        Love is also unconditional for it to be called Love, and hence is not relative. It is regardless of "duty".

        Jasmerji is right;  Mankind has collectively shown Intelligence by establishing duty/rights towards one another through socio-economic and political systems from time to time! 

        More on the subject later if warranted!
        Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt


        ----------------------------------------------------------

        The gap between actions (duties) and results can not be bridged at the action point. So the whole thing shifts to action.
        You have to act (at whatever level your reasoning, calculative and emotional quotient is) and see what happens.

        You act as you want considering that uncertainty as to results can not be solved as of now.

        There is no flawless choice. But you have to respond any way. When you understand that there is no choice which is flawless, you are hinged on to uncertainty. There is no way this uncertainty can be undone. The energy is concentrated, there arises response which is complete, relaxed, without any psychological dependence upon the outcome.

        What the mind is doing is to treat one side as satisfactory and proceed; it ignores the pain of uncertainty.

        There is nothing (ness) beyond this uncertainty.

        Y V Chawla

        -----------------------------------------------------------------

        Dear Friends

        A small thing i wish to state. While it is our duty to love and obey ones
        parents, I do not think that the Gita does not permit one to see and correct the
        faults of ones parents. While doing so in a firm and respectful manner, one is
        actually performing ones duties. Also in this case one is opposing the evil
        tendencies in the person just as Arjuna was exhorted to fight his teachers and
        guru while opposing the wrong that they did. On the other hand Rama obeyed his
        father even as he was perpetrating an injustice to him and doing an undemocratic
        act of banishing his son who was selected by due process of democratic norms to
        head the state. Who is right Rama in obeying his parents who did wrong or
        Krishna who told Arjuna to oppose Dhritrashtra, Duryodhana, Bhishma and
        Dronacharya?
        Sadhak Vispi Jokhi

        ----------------------------------------------

         

        --------------------------------------------------------

        narayan narayan

        Swamiji has said,  remain ever alert / careful, and what happens leave it up to the Lord.   Fulfill your duties,  and do not have your attention on other's duties.  If you have your sight on other's duties, then you yourself will be spoiled (rather not be focused on your own duties).   The reason why this birth has been taken by you, make it your support for your ultimate goal,  that itself is your duty.  

        IN HINDI 

        swamiji ne kaha hein karne me savdhan raho our honi uper wale pe chood do.
        apna kartavya nibhavo dosro ke kartavya per dhayan mat do .agar dusro ke kartavya per dhayan denge to khud bigad gavoge.jis ke liye janam liya hein us janam ko sarthak kardo.ye hi aapka kartavya he duty hein.
        RAMCHANDRA

        ------------------------------------------------------

        Hari Om

        Not only one should refrain from wishing/understanding/speaking/doing bad with reference to others; but similarly one should not think so about him/her self also. Neither in self nor in others.

        As regards the Arjuna fighting with Bhisma/Drona etc, it was his duty to so. Still before the war started he took blessings of both. He did not fight with them, he fought with injustice, adharma. In fact 100 times more powerful arguments were given by Arjuna to Lord Krishna against non fighting. Krishna replied correctly to his queries in Gita, stated how those were wrong, and adviced correctly to Arjuna.

        Referring to another message, the pride of giving without expecting anything in return is in fact a 'self respect' in the truest meaning of the world. The definition of 'self respect' given by Swamiji is the pride of doing one's duty correctly. Jeeva must have 'self respect' - there is nothing wrong in the same.

        Pranaams to all sadhaks.
        Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

        Narottam

        -------------------------------------------------------

        Reverend Sirs,
        Excuse my persistence: but there can be no "duty " without a  "right" vested in  someone just as there can be no "up" without a "down", or a "right" without a "left" with respect to something. Thus, when we are told that Gandhiji (who was a lawyer and should not have been mistaken on this point) says
        "Human beings have no RIGHTS. They have only DUTIES"  it leaves one perplexed. Gandhiji's message must therefore be interpreted as meaning that  human-beings themselves  have no rights because their only duties are towards GOD  and therefore their duties towards other human beings are only a reflection of their duties towards GOD.
        But, as a considerable portion even of Indian philosophy (example Buddhism) proceeds without the assumption of the existence of GOD, if these Gita Discussions are to be of interest to all, believers and non believers alike,  then the assumption of the existence of GOD should not be brought into the picture. We could simply say, as do the Buddhists, that all human-beings have the common duty towards others (and thus towards themselves) of alleviating human suffering and that, correlatively with this, all human beings have a common right to expect a helping hand in this respect from all other human beings.
        Respectfully,
        Jasmer Singh

        ---------------------------------------------------------


        Jai Hanuman

        Though I don't agree fully with the message, but there is a lot of truth in the following statement:

        Quote
        The Idea of Karma Yoga is interesting because it makes it possible to bridge the gap between believers and non believers and this bridging of the gap is of vital importance because the majority of the scientifically educated people in the world today are non believers, but are not necessarily, for that reason, bad people.
        Unquote

        In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are 'laukik' (worldly) striving (sadhana). Karma/Jnana Yoga can be practiced till completion (Equanimity/Disconnection with inert).... without even thinking a little about God and without believing in existence of God at all. They are scientific processes in themselves. They have support of truthful laws and principles. Both Karma Yogi and Jnana Yogi target 'disconnection' with world.

        But I don't agree people can ever be 'non-believers'. Better expression is not exercising the power to believe with reference to God. Else, you can not, however 'scientifically educated' you may be, remain without exercising your power of belief. You do it constantly in your daily worldly life. Hence you are never a non believer totally. You may not be believing in God. But you have power to believe in tact - applied wrongly.

        The following is not at all a correct statement:

        Quote
        Ego is not, and can not, be destroyed, but is placed elsewhere; pride is not, and can not be, destroyed, but is given another direction.
        Unquote

        The ego/pride can only get extinguished. Nothing else can happen to it ! Because it never exists, it is only assumed. Had it not been possible how could Lord Krishna state that to be goal for a Jeeva in Gita?

        Beauty of Gitaji is that it applies to all- entire humanity. Whichever way you go... . However you are ... Believer, non believer, half believer ..!

        Namaste Jee

        Jee Jee
        Shashikala

        ----------------------------------------------------

        -Shree Hari-

        Namaste!

         I would like to reflect upon a line written by Jee Jee Shashikala Jee, it reflects what appears to me, from my short time at this site, to be about the most contentious issue!

        Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form as far he is concerned - irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled - he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

        When I wrote reflect that is what I meant! I do not have knowledge of the scriptures attesting to that statement. I did reflect in the Gitaji, did not see any direct connection, (proves nothing, as I am not fully versed in the  Bhagavad Gita).

        So I reflected on my experience and some by some Sadhaks.
        As a backdrop for my reflections I found two interesting Shlokas:
        Bhagavadgita Chapter 8 :27
        Knowing these two paths in essence, O Partha , no Yogi is delude. Therefore O Arjuna, be saturated with Yoga, at all times. (Swamiji's comments on the above I believe supports my thoughts  i.e. detaching from the fruit of actions etc).
        Chapter 10 : 20
        I am the self, O conquerer of sleep, seated in the hearts  of all beings. I am the  beginning the middle and the end of all creation.

        A Sadhak, had suffered brutality and cruelty, (one of several  that wrote  in), but this Sadhak  had taken on her mother who was no longer  in control of her faculties. This Sadhak had chosen the higher path of light!
        Could have walked away, sought the bright lights, the low/dark path!
        From my suffering, I was able to give to my sons that which I was denied. Two paths opened up, to perpetuate this cruel lunacy, or to transmute it into love. I chose the latter, well not chose it was automatic!
        So referring to the Shloka 10 : 20 these mutual actions of myself and the Sadhak I mentioned, was revealed to us in our actions. Quite a revelation to me I  can tell you!

        These are my humble refections.

        Om.... Shanti....

        Mike (K).

        -------------------------------------------------------------

        Jai Hanuman

        Continuing my insights on the subject of Selfless Service -

        I generally felt that even very good people can not easily 'renounce' money with the fear that it will be lost forever. They will talk sweet but will hugely hesitate in parting with money even when sicknesses, marriages, deaths etc are there in family. They start bringing out their versions of what according to them is duty.

        But this is not true. Exactly reverse is the scenario. Said Swamiji once: The moment you renounce money , at that moment itself the prarabdha (destiny) for much more money to you gets written. (Receipt of money in future gets guaranteed there). A Renouncer is seen with rare riches in his possession. The giver of money is never deficient.

        Hence service without expectation does not go rewardless from worldly point of view also. Only direct corelation is not visible to the. 'worldly' mind/intellect.

        Our experience suggests that we struggled hugely with finances, but we were never never deficient of money when needed !! Money whenever needed was always received dot on time. World gave money. So this fear should never be there in sadhaks, it is not actually so !! No doubt on that ! We must renounce fearlessly.

        There is another Law supporting this law that 'by giving ,you never actually become deficient ' . In fact, for your sadhana , the renouncing of the worldly things for others is the saadhan, and it is a law that - Whatever is necessary for you to do your kalyaan ( Liberation) is available with you. Hence it is the duty of the Law of Nature and God Himself to make available to you what is needed for your liberation. .

        Why we should look at the duty of others? We don't become deficient by spending on others. We gain. Our own duty is helping us. Why a wife should be concerned as to what is the duty of her husband towards her? By doing her own duty only she can gain. There is no other way of gaining.

        Why a husband should do so ? He should act as a loving bridge between his wife and parents- cracking jokes, before both of them and keep doing what he considers is his duty ? Where is the obstacle to him by his parents or by his wife? He has a double duty. He is to serve his wife as well as his parents and he is to earn also from outside the home. Wife is the Queen of the home. She is 'Annapurna' ! She is the feeder to all connected with the home ! She does more work than you do. She is duty bound to remain always with you. She is a much much bigger renouncer than you can ever imagine to be, leave aside actually being. So serve both.

        Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form- irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled- he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

        Where then is the scope for thinking even about the duty of others? Thus doing only your duty and not looking at others' duty generates imperishable gains for you. Peace for you . Liberation for you.


        Namaste Jee

        Jee Jee
        Shashikala

        -----------------------------------------------

        Shree Hari
        Ram Ram
        Brother Jasmer Singhji, that which is in nature innately takes its course. 
        when a child is hungry and even if it does not cry, mother begins to feed it as her breasts begin to ooze with milk.  What?  Did your son or daughter tell you to love them?   Without any spoken words, you began to love them.  It is therefore to be understood, that duty is not done only upon someone saying something has to be done.  It simply gets done, and the one it gets done for, he is the rightful recipient of that .  
        so be it,
        Vineet Sarvottam   
         
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        Hari Om

        Sadhak Sridharji Pant. The very first talk of Karma Yoga in Gita starts with 'Karmanye vaa dhikaraste...' ( 2:47) . You have right 'to do' . In fact you have only 3 rights (powers) - to do something, to know something, to believe something. There is no fourth right or power which SELF has got. You are supposed to exercise your 'right to do' by doing for others ( not for yourself) ; your 'right to know' for knowing yourself ( not for knowing others) and your 'right to believe' in placing your belief in your own Paramatma ( not for world/ not your own) !!

        Pranaams to all Sadhaks.
        Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

        Narottam

        ------------------------------------------------------------------

        Jai Hanuman

        Frankly I could never understand the very wisdom behind- 'looking at the duty of others' from the worldly perspective too, what to talk from sadhana prospective. I have seen a lot of quarrels in families due to this fruitless activity- unnecessary quarrels of being critical or judger or evaluater of the conduct of others.

        In fact, our own duty only helps us. Why a wife should be concerned as to what is the duty of her husband towards her and towards his parents ? By doing her own duty only she can gain. There is no other way of gaining.

        Why a husband should do so ? He should always act as a loving bridge between his wife and parents- cracking jokes before both of them, keeping both in good humor... and keep doing what he considers is his duty ! Where is the obstacle to him in this way of behaviour ? He has multiple duties. Wife is the Queen of the home. She is 'Annapurna'- feeder to all ! A 'home' is only a 'home' when there is wife inside it. Else where is the very 'home'? - it may be a hotel, an inn, a guest house, a math, a house, an ashram, a tabela, a stable, a den, a lair ....but not a 'home' unless in that a wife is present. She does more work than you do. Their goals may be same, but duties are different. Where is the clash then? She is a much much bigger renouncer than you can ever imagine to be, leave aside actually being. So serve both and earn too !

        Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form as far he is concerned - irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled - he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

        Where then is the scope for thinking even about the duty of others? In which worldly relationship ? Thus doing only your duty and not looking at others' duty generates imperishable gains for you.

        Namaste Jee

        Jee Jee
        Shashikala

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Hari Om

        The sadhana for Karma Yoga makes you see no faults in others. I learnt a very strange but true law. Law is - If You think someone to be bad, that person will become bad ! How strange a law ! Reason: You are 'satya sankalp' ! You are part of God. If you think that someone is bad, he and you both become bad. You immediately for all , he.. vis-a-vis you !! This is an experience I am sharing with sadhaks.

        Hence real Karma Yoga means - NOT wishing/understanding/speaking/doing bad to others by mind/speech/body. This ultimate principle of Karma Yoga makes you effortlessly /egolessly doing good only. Either you will not do anything ( and thereby realise God- as God is realised ONLY by non-doing, never by doing) or you shall become 'sarva bhoot hite rata' ( again a necessity under all 3 yogas for Self/ God Realisation ) !! You assume universality when you don't wish/understand/do bad to others. You can say even to any person anywhere (to all known or unknown persons ) : Sir ! I did not do anything wrong to you ! But can you say so to all : Sir ! I did good you ? No ! You become limited when you set your eye on 'doing good'. But you assume unlimitedness , when you decide " I shall not wish/understand/do/talk bad to/for/about others" ! You , Divine Sadhaks, are UNLIMITED, UNIVERSAL, by your very form and nature.

        Pranaams to all sadhaks.
        Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

        Narottam

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Respected Sadhaks, I do firmly believe that one has to respect his mother, father and Guru. But in connection with tracing the relationship between rights and duties I everytime reading Geeta, that I do every day as the first task, I am reminded of the fact that if it was my duty then it was the duty of Arjuna too not to fight Bhism (his grandfather) or Dronacharyam his Guru. Obviously in practice under the guidence of Shri Krishna he faught Bhism and the great spritualist Udhister lied or managed that only half sentence is herd by his Guru. In this context I am perplexed finding out what is right and what is duty.Was not  the rght of Bhism to be respected by his progeny?

        Will someone kindly enlighten me?
        Shridhar Pant
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Reverend Sirs,
        The Idea of Karma Yoga is interesting because it makes it possible to bridge the gap between believers and non believers and this bridging of the gap is of vital importance because the majority of the scientifically educated people in the world today are non believers, but are not necessarily, for that reason, bad people. They also wish to live in a happier world free of conflict but at the same time in a world free of merely tradition based imaginary creations.  In scientific terms Karma Yoga has a name:  "sublimation of an instinctual drive".  Ego is not, and can not, be destroyed, but is placed elsewhere; pride is not, and can not be, destroyed, but is given another direction. One takes PRIDE now in giving without receiving anything in return, but that nevertheless is PRIDE.
        Respectfully,
        Jasmer Singh
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Hari Om

        The core principle of Karma Yoga is - I don't have to do anything for myself. I am complete in myself. I don't need anything for myself. I have got everything including this body/mind/intellect, worldly things, money,health, wealth, power, position etc - from world only. Let me selflessly employ the same in the service of the world.

        When you do as above- in the end world ( things/body you have) gets employed in the world ( in service of others)only

        - and you being SELF remain behind 'unattached' - peaceful , useful to all and not causing any problem to anyone.

        You become 'Shaant'. (peaceful- because association with world only caused lack of peace and as renunciation instantly results into peace. You have also become 'asang' (disconnected from inert) ! The bondage of 'mineness' (mamata) has broken. You are free. Thus you have become

        1 'nirmam' (mamataless- It is a law that - Selfless Service destroys mamata);

        2 'nirahankaar' (egoless - It is a law that if 'mamata' is gone, me-ness (ego) goes with it, automatically ) ;

        3 'nispruh'/ 'nishkaam' (not worrying for self maintenance. You do not need anything for yourself . You are renouncer of them. World starts taking care of you )

        4 'pumanscharati' - a free man wandering - ( nothing remains to be done, the very desire 'to do something ' extinguishes). You are 'Liberated' You are free. You have no bondage. You have nothing left to do.

        Thereby , exactly meeting the yardsticks set in BG 2:71 and thus gaining SHAANT RAS ( The Nectar of Bliss and Peace) . Side by side you have also known that after knowing which nothing remains to be known. Further, You have become SARVA BHOOT HITE RATAA . You may still be doing Lok Sangrah but actually You are LIBERATED WHILE LIVING ! Unattached.

        So simple, so easy to implement, so logical, so practical, ... VILAKSHAN are the formulae given by Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for benefit of humanity at large. Look at the definition of DUTY by Swamiji - What you can do and what you should do.

        Now tell me what is so difficult about "Only selflessly doing what is your duty, and not looking at the duty of others"? Just by doing this simple thing, Divine Sadhaks, you get LIBERATED !

        What is needed. A bhava only. Just a resolution, an inner bhava. If you can believe me, believe .. Nothing more than this simple decision is needed. Rest everything is arranged automatically by Laws of Nature. You simply act with this motive and do your duty with whatever you have !

        What Saints and Sages do not give to the humanity at large ? They give every thing which they have. Everything !! Nothing they keep with them. Nothing !! Swamiji gave, gave and gave and kept on giving ! He gave only to the world. Only He gave !

        Liberation ! Peace !!

        Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

        Narottam

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        Dear sadaks,
        All human beings know what is duty. Now a days duty without bribe is not working. Very rare is duty conscience man. Such a rare man We can easily know that he has faith on Bagavan and so he is dutiful. Then doing duty is HIS divine grace alone. However we may think to be dutiful, HIS grace needed. Simple Example: Arjuna wanted to do his duty, but without Sri Krishna it would not have been success. So think of HIM at all times and duty performs on its own.
        B.Sathyanarayan

        ------------------------------------------------------

         

        Will any Sadhak help me understand the use of word right (Adhikar). The little I have read the Scriptures I could not find the term right. Everywhere be it in Vedas, Ramayan or Mahabharat including GEETA I

        find talk about duties. In Geeta Shri Krishna asks Arjun to perform his duty. Nowhere he talks about rights. Any quote on the point will help. Some Sadhak has said even Gandhi ji said humans have duties, no rights. Kindly help.

        Shridhar Pant

        -----------------------------------------------------

        Jai Hanuman

        Continuing my insights on the subject of Selfless Service -

        I generally felt that even very good people can not easily 'renounce' money with the fear that it will be lost forever. They will talk sweet but will hugely hesitate in parting with money even when sicknesses, marriages, deaths etc are there in family. They start bringing out their versions of what according to them is duty.

        But this is not true. Exactly reverse is the scenario. Said Swamiji once: The moment you renounce money , at that moment itself the prarabdha (destiny) for much more money to you gets written. (Receipt of money in future gets guaranteed there). A Renouncer is seen with rare riches in his possession. The giver of money is never deficient.

        Hence service without expectation does not go rewardless from worldly point of view also. Only direct corelation is not visible to the. 'worldly' mind/intellect.

        Our experience suggests that we struggled hugely with finances, but we were never never deficient of money when needed !! Money whenever needed was always received dot on time. World gave money. So this fear should never be there in sadhaks, it is not actually so !! No doubt on that ! We must renounce fearlessly.

        There is another Law supporting this law that 'by giving ,you never actually become deficient ' . In fact, for your sadhana , the renouncing of the worldly things for others is the saadhan, and it is a law that - Whatever is necessary for you to do your kalyaan ( Liberation) is available with you. Hence it is the duty of the Law of Nature and God Himself to make available to you what is needed for your liberation. .


        Namaste Jee

        Jee Jee
        Shashikala


        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        When one does not seek release, fulfilment through results- there arises action, which is complete.
        When one understands that uncertainty as to results can not be solved as 0f now (that is, at the action point).
        The energy is concentrated. There arises action, which is relaxed, not binding.
        The question of duties, responsibilities, rights has no use. It is conflict in itself.
        The System is self sustained.
        Y V Chawla

        --------------------------------------------------

        Hari Om

        I have a little bit of experience of practicing Karma Yoga as taught by Swamiji. An experience of nearly 25 years.
        This principle doing one's duty and not looking at other's duty ( service ) is... a beauty ! It works wonders in making family life, surroundings dutiful and peaceful. IT ACTS VERY FAST. Entire kalah (fighting) ends. The very cause of quarrelling takes a hit. Egos stop clashing at home. Most of quarrels take place because : Not my duty, your duty. You acted so, hence I did so. Do I not have not any rights? Who is more important to you me or they? I also want to take some rest. Am I donkey? Why he is not working? Why did you marry me, if parents are important to you ? What is my importance ? Etc. But as you keep serving, those family members with bad habits, silently start improving their habits... More you serve without 'mineness' to them, more their nature improves.. and then come to your support many such subtle laws which are associated with Karma Yoga.

        Like: By genuine 'service'... There arises a willingness in that 'other' to his duty also diligently. Yes! This is a principle narrated by Swamiji.. I saw it meticulously operating in household. By doing your duty diligently, demi Gods become happy. Your debts keep reducing and you keep getting longer and longer runs/periods of 'peace'- (Shaant Ras)- as renouncing (tyaag) becomes your daily routine. Your own "mamata" (mineness) reduces drastically with service ( This principle of Swamiji: Service destroys Mamata- was not understood by me for a long time, but it is perfectly correct ) ! Reduction in Mamata is direct reduction of ego ! Your 'svabhav' becomes purer and purer. The others stop appearing 'bad' to you. You start appreciating/seeing only good in them. The household turns into a temple. In due course, all start doing their duties, without looking at other's duties. Children pick the threads and their 'samskaras' get purer and purer.... In the end :

        A Karma Yogi becomes darling of all surrounding him . He has nothing to do but keeps doing as a habit. World starts taking care of him. Family worries excessively about him- after all he has been a consistent giver of pleasure to them. Family members INVARIABLY develop a strong emotion of 'giving to him' ! Everybody becomes happy to give to him. He becomes a treasure for his family and surroundings. More he renounces the things, more eager the worldly things become to come near him. A stage comes when all want to give to other. No body likes to take. ( In the words of Sarvottamji- all in home become 'sadhaks').

        Dukhalayam turns into Vasudev Sarvam.

        All because he did his duty and did not look at the duty of others. He stopped understanding/wishing/doing bad to others.

        Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

        Narottam

        --------------------------------------------

        Jai Hanuman

        Question seeks 'insights' on the subject of service. Let me give my experiences. Karma Yoga is stated to be almost extinct in Gita. Why ? Because now-a-days most of the couples do not even understand what is 'marriage'. The Q of then their understanding as to what is 'family' does not arise !! Karma Yoga is a primarily family related sadhana.

        I perfectly agree with Brother Mike Keenor. In fact, we, while being in family, have encountered situations where the servicee was totally disrespectful, but as service to him as per principles was necessary and it was rendered. Later on, as reality dawned upon the servicee, his sentiments changed so much that even to lift his eyes before us became difficult for him. That is the real charishma of service as per Karma Yoga principles. Selfless service, certainly, changes the servicee.

        In fact Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj once told us that those who carry ill will clearly against you, they should be particularly served, doubly served !! If your service goes unappreciated, you are in fact better off. We now know this fact very well. In family, issues of others not appreciating (rather disrespecting) service towards them arise quite frequently. Generally in families, a lot of quarrels and unrest takes place on this count. But principles taught by Swamiji do not recommend even your expecting slightest of respect for your doing duty.

        The fact is that your walking on the path of selfless service gets fiercely tested. (How Laws of Nature ensure that ? ... I don't know .. But, I must say, it is an amazingly accurate process ). Once we really felt shocked and pained when our service was met with total and unbearable insult. Seeing us sad, my Mum- in- Law said:

        Donot reduce the value of your Rupee ( quality of service) to a few paisas by expecting praise/acknowledgement ! Let Rupee remain Rupee.

        Hearing the above, we instantly became pleased. Instead of hatred and disgust, a real happiness and peace came into mind.

        Divine Sadhaks ! As Sarvottamji told : We must become "sadhaks". A sadhak gives and only gives. When you want to "take" and not "give" ( or give only when you receive) then only you become, say, a "husband hater" or "wife abuser" in family !!

        Namaste Jee

        Jee Jee
        Shashikala
        ----------------------------------
        Shree Hari  

        Ram Ram 

        IN ENGLISH

        "That which is other's rights (adhikaar) , that itself is our duty"  (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 44).  Where there is talk of taking, there rights are exerted.   This "gita-talk" group is for spiritual aspirants (saadhak).   Now when does a man become a aspirant (saadhak),  regarding this Swamiji has said - when "I do not want to take anything, rather I only want to give and give. -  On having this thought, man becomes a saadhak."   (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 174].  

        Regarding "Others's rights and our duty" after this explaination too is there anything more remaining to be known? 

        So be it,  Vineet Sarvottam

        IN HINDI

        Jo Doosero that adhikaar hota hai, wohi hamaaraa kartavya hota hai.   (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 44).  Jahaan lene ki baat aati hai, wahaan adhikaar kaa prayog kiyaa jaataa hai.  Yeh 'gita-talk' sadhakon kaa samooh (group) hai.  Manushya kab saadhak ban jaataa hai iske baare mein Swamiji kaa kahanaa hai, "Mereko kuch lenaa nahin hai, pratyuk denaa hi denaa hai - aisaa vichaar karnese manushya saadhak ban jaataa hai. " (Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye pg 174].  

        Kyaa ab bhi "dooseresaa adhikaar aur humaaraa kartavya" ke baare mein jaananaa shesh rahaa?  

        Astu,

        Vineet Sarvottam

        ------------------------------------------

        -Shree Hari-

        I cannot get away, from the original post, and Srimadbhagavadgita 3: 21 : Whatsoever an ideal person does he is followed by others,  as well . Whatever the standard he sets the, world follows the same

        Mahatma Gandhi led the Dandi march from his Sabarmati Ashram to Dandi, Gujarat to produce salt without paying the tax, with growing numbers of Indians joining him along the way.

        He saw that the people of his land were ruled by tyranny, he was a soul that had the great gift to inspire, Mahatma Gandhi, served!

        The mind set of asserting ones rights can lead to very long conflicts, but to get along doing ones duty, single pointedly, bamboozles tyrants, and Gandhi demonstrated that so well!

        Om... Shanti...

        Mike Keenor

        ----------------------------------------------------

        Namaskar!
        Thank you very much.!
        Shubheccha to all members!
        Dr. Shriniwas Janardan Kashalikar
         
        -----------------------------------------------------
        Shree Hari  Ram Ram
        Swamiji says , from a sadhak's perspective, the minute we look at the duties of another, we fall from our own duties.   The root cause of conflicts, friction, disorder is, that people demand their rights, but they do not perform their duty.  Simply speaking,  let us not be affected by others and let us do our duties well, then this world (society, community) will become a better place.  Because the amazing thing that Gitaji and Swamiji have clarified for us is that by performing our duties, a spiritual aspirant safeguards the rights of others.   We do not need others to tell us about their rights (adhikaar).  How powerful is our role,  and how easily we can accomplish it.   The art of Karma Yoga - (Discipline of Action).... Sadhak Sanjivini - Verse 3/10 and 11 are worth reading.      Meera Das,  Ram Ram  
         
        ------------------------------------------------
        Hari Om

        What is stated by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is the core of Karma Yoga (KY) and nectar of Gitaji. The fundamental of KY lies in the fact that we are born "bondaged" as a human…to pay back what we have received and get liberated upon extinguishment of our debts.  A KY therefore RENOUNCES his own rights over the others, and diligently protects the rights of others over himself. That right of others over one self is called DUTY. It is always UNCONDITIONAL, and imposed upon you by the others. It is never bi-lateral and SELF ASSUMED. The principle is- Repay your debts  BY SERVICE without expecting anything in return;  don't take new debts by exercising or desiring to exercise your rights over others…. If you do so…what else can be the end result except your LIBERATION ? THERE IS SIMPLE  RATIONALE. VERY VERY VALID AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND.    Repay old debts; do not take new debts…get FREE. Simple logic, ideal way of living in the world.

         Swamiji also defined DUTY for benefit of humanity at large: DUTY is what you CAN do; and what you SHOULD do. Here the terms CAN and SHOULD both should be there to constitute DUTY. As a result…Duty is NEVER NEVER difficult. DUTY never requires more from the world. Whatever you have is sufficient to perform your duty. For example: It is your duty to pay for education of your child. You SHOULD. But inspite of doing karma in just  and valid manner,  if you don't have money with you to pay…it is not your duty. Similarly, your wife demands something unreasonable from you…say  not taking care of  your  parents. You CAN do so, but  whether you SHOULD? No !  Hence that is not your DUTY.  On CAN front…the availability of worldly things, time, money , etc play a predominant role. On SHOULD front , you are fully justified in relying upon Scriptures ( BG 16:24), and on your own CONSCIENCE (viveka) !

        Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

        Narottam

        -----------------------------------------

        Karmanyavaadhikaara ste maa phaleshu kadaachanaa  |  (Gita 2/47)

        You have the right to perform your duties only, and not to it's fruits. <<

        Perhaps a better translation of Adhikara here is "control".

        We have control over what we do. We have no control over the fruits (results). Don't be pre-occupied with things you have no control on. Don't be lazy, because you have no control on the result.

        If we have no control on results, then what or who decides the outcome of all actions- good and bad?
        Five factors determine the result as discussed in BG 18:13-15.
        Timing, individual, tools, how rools are applied and unknown causes (providence).

        Important thing to remember is, if we do good, even if we don't se good result right away, we will be rewarded next time around (next life).
        "nahi kalyANa kRit kaschit durgatim taata gachCHati" as we see in the Gita Ji.

        Koti Sreekrishna  (KST)
        ------------------------------------------------

         

        ---------------------------------------------------

        Somerset Maugham, the famous British writer, once sent letters to important personalities of the world. "What are the rights of human being?"

        Gandhiji's response was a single sentence, "Human beings have no RIGHTS. They have only DUTIES".
         
        A thousand words will not improve upon this!
        Ramesh Chitnis
        ---------------
         
        || Shree Hari ||
        Ram Ram
         
        Other's Rights are Our Duties 

        There is one very important point.  Other's rights on us, that alone is our duty.  Just as doing something that is beneficial to others is our duty and it is the entitlement of others.  To serve the mother and father, to give them happiness is the duty of the son, and is the entitlement (adhikaar) of the mother and father.  Similarly, to provide for and to protect the son is the duty of the mother and father and the entitlement of the son.  To serve the Guru, to follow through with his words is the duty of a disciple and it is the rights of a Guru.  Similarly wiping out the disciple's ignorance, and to make him realize God is the duty of a Guru and the entitlement of a disciple.  In other words, through the fulfillment of a man's duties, he must protect the rights of others.  The man who looks at other people's duties and what he is entitled to receive, he strays away from his own duties.  Therefore man has to give up his entitlements, and he has to perform his duties with all his might, for protection of fair rights of others.  To see to other's duty and to hold on to our own rights is the main reason for fall in this life and beyond.   The cause for lack of peace, quarrels (kalaha), conflicts (sangharsh) that are seen in the present times,  is this alone, that men demand their rights, but they do not fulfill their duties.   Therefore Gita says - 

        Karmanyavaadhikaara ste maa phaleshu kadaachanaa  |  (Gita 2/47) 

        You have the right to perform your duties only, and not to it's fruits. 

        In this world those that are considered eminent, pioneers, dominant leaders, masters, main educators, trainers, topmost speakers, chiefs, foremost in their particular field, there lies a great responsibility on them to educate others to see to the well-being and benefit of others.  For them Gita says - 

        Yadyadaacharati shreshstattdevetaro janah  | 

        sa yatpramaanam kurute lokastdanuvartate  ||  (Gita 3/21) 

        Whatever is the conduct of great men, other men do just the same, and whatever he says, others do according to what he says."

        In this verse, regarding the subject of a great man's conduct the words "yat yat" "tat tat"  and "eva" these five words have come; but with respect to man's speech, only the following two words have been used "yat" and "tat".   The point here is that man's conduct has five times (more) the impact on other men, and man's spoken words have two times the affect (significantly lesser).  That man who himself does not do his duty, but only by his speech, advices and lectures oth

        (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

      • sadhak_insight
        Shree Hari Ram Ram Please share your thoughts keeping Gita Verses, Brevity, Relevancy and Respect for All in the forefront. Please revisit the group s
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 1, 2010

          Shree Hari   Ram Ram

          Please share your thoughts keeping Gita Verses,  Brevity, Relevancy and Respect for All in the forefront.   Please revisit the group's guidelines before posting response.   

          Gita Talk Moderators,   Ram Ram 

          ==================================

          NEW POSTING

          If legislation could guarantee rights and duties, it would have been great. But there is no permanenr solution to the problems of rights and duties. That is why laws go on changing: most laws become outdated or ineffective or unjust to some  as soon as they are legislated. That all this happens is due to the operation of the combination ofGunas, ego, desires. A person on the par\th of salvation through Yoga and meditation realizes very early that the only right is the right to work and the only duty is to see the same Self or God in all beings - living or not.
          If one is able to gain control of senses and direct them to love everything as the manifestation of the same God without any desire or objective to derive pleasure of any sort (you may not desire to achieve something, but you may still achieve pleasure or you may not), then the question of rights or duties do not arise. If one does not gain control over semses and desire, the question of rights and duties become one of how to be fair and just, and hence is of no relevance to the society.
          The society and the individuals would go thruogh the esperiences and act / react in accordance with the inherent Gunas, the external environment.
          It is not true that one must assert his/ her rights to enable others to realize and accept their corresponding duties. If everyone knew their duties and performed accordingly, the rights would have been automatically taken care of.  These are only surmises and hypothetical ideas.  It is Maya or illusion that creates the notion of rights and duties in the minds of human being. Those who get liberated,  They do not find any rights or duties appealing to them at all.
          Basudeb Sen
          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           
          Other's Rights and Our Duties - Your Insights
          Our fundamental right as well as duty is to be happy and to remain happy. If there is any disturbance to that from outside, we need to fight it out and sort out the difficulties. 
          Others, too, are bound with the same fundamental right and responsibility - to be happy and to remain happy - on their own. They are responsible for protecting their happiness against all the disturbances as well. 
          Therefore, conflict and unrest are inevitable to the notion of happiness that is rooted in environmental factors - the individual disturbing the environmental equilibrium and the environment disturbing the individual equilibrium. Therefore, a perpetual fight or competetion between the individual and the environment is essential to maintain peace, an equilibrium of happiness, in the system of survival. Therefore, as far as the survival is in the forefront in one's motif, one cannot run away from the fight and the associated unrest.
          One who looks for stability in the peace within would have to look into the elements and modes of survival that trigger the unrest from within. One cannot look around for such stability as the envirnmental entites are not in one's control to start with; and as one would eventually figure out, the environmental perturbance being the reflection of its inner conjugate is bound to mitigate on its own as the inner perterbance is mitigated. 
          That is when the quest triggers the spiritual journey inward …to look deep within for the root causes for all the unrest from within … 
          Dhyaayate vishayaan pumsah sangasteshoopajaayate | 
          Sangaat sanjaayate kaamah kaamaat krodho'bhijaayate || 
          Krodhaat bhavati sammohah sammohaat smritivibhramah |
          Smritibhramshaat buddhinaashah buddhinaashaat praNashyati || 
          … to ponder how can there be disturbances around if these inner perturbances are vanquished altogether … 
          Yastvaatmaratireva syaat aatmatriptashcha maanavah |
          Aatmanyeva tu santushTah tasya kaaryam na vidyate || 
          Naiva tasya kritenaartho naakritenaiva kashchana |
          Na chaasya sarvabhootebhyo kashchidarthavyapaashrayah || 
          As one ponders deeper and deepr on the inherent causes for the apparent purterbances, the root causes start dwindling from within in strength as well as multiplicity … the softening of the apparent disturbances to their eventual termination is inevitable as the causes move toward their own termination. 
          As the perterbations from within start disseminating away, the erstwhile perturbances from around also start whithering away. As the perterbances for one's peaceful presence start dispersing away, the need for the rights as well as responsibilities start disappearing at the same rate as well. 
          As one attains the perfect balance within and around with no perterbances of any kind, one breaks out of the dependence on all the notions of survival ... all the duties and responsibilities that were self-imposed start whithering away as mere notions ... leaving the one to be THE ONE as is and as ever ... 
          … till then … let us let others to enjoy all the rights that we claim for ourselves … let us pro-actively adapt all the responsibilities that we expect others to follow within ourselves … let us strike a fair balance between the share in the duties as well as responsibilities between ourselves and the others ... that very fairness in balance is the springboard for us to take a leap into The Abyss of THAT PERFECT BALANCE where there are neither duties nor responsibilities ... where there are neither us nor others ... JUST THAT ...
          Respects.
          Naga Narayana. 
          ----------------------------------------------------------------
           
          Shree Hari   Ram Ram
           
          Swamiji says - When we focus on other's duty,  we are losing sight our duty
          What an amazing point this is !  and also... 
          The unhappiness, fights, confrontations seen all around in society and at homes is because - 
          People demand their rights,  and do not discharge their duties. 
          Oh!   Sadhak, you all have surely heard this... but could not help revisiting...
          What are treasure !!!   
          Meera Das,  Ram Ram   
           
          --------------------------------------------------------------
          Questions and questions, more questions........the subtle ego/logical mind works like this.....
          and interesting thing is that purpose of all this is to win....to be happy.........
          but even if the mind wins, the happiness is temporary.......because there will be thousands of other question, an unending process....
           
          Answer to such questions.....will not satisfy the quest to know what is this all about...........
           
          There is a better way to be truely happy...............by experiencially knowing the principles of our lives, wisdom of life, to be aware of our limiting beliefs.....knowing the larger vision.........knowing what we really want at the end of everything we do........
           
          Contemplation and experiencing the spiritual knowledge brings the real results and true happiness...
           
          It clears the fundamentals on the duality in life........Black and white, happiness and unhappiness, rich and poor, big and small, good and bad, right and wrong, duties and rights, etc....... It takes you beyond the duality............to a blissful state.....where you are begond the duties and rights....everything just happens right.....all questions dissolve......you start getting the Intuition.....
           
          It starts with the self enquiry "who am I?".......and "who is the other?"......what do we want?.....
          Understanding is the key.........
          Sushil Jain
          ---------------------------------------------------------------
                

           

          Hari Om

          Sadhak Jasmerji ! You are right that there can't be a duty without a right. Here your right is "to do something". (BG 2:47) It is with reference to that right, the duties are there- "to do that after doing which the very desire to do extinguishes"- To do what you CAN and what you SHOULD. Hence there is a desire existing, there is a right (power) existing, and there is a duty existing. There is a difference between these 3 terms.

          But you are not right in the following statement:

          "all human beings have a common right to expect a helping hand in this respect from all other human beings."

          Duty is unilateral. It is your individual. It has no corelation with the duties of others. Even otherwise your duty is right of others. Duty is doing yourself. "Expectation of helping hand" means duty is dependent on others. Duty is of 'independent doer' (Svantrah Karta- Karta is always independent) ! In any case, Duty essentially is expectationless.

          There is a difference between desire and duty. I will reflect better perhaps if you can let me know as to how in your view welfare of a child is desire as well as duty.

          As regards 'belief '- This Divine GT Satsanga has provided you answer in the same posting. See how divine this Forum is !

          God is also a "disinterested friend".

          Thus, Gitaji, the teachings of Saints and Sages of Sanatan Dharma like Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, and all Sanatan Dharma Scriptures ARE UNIVERSALLY APPLICABLE TO ENTIRE HUMANITY. After all - Sanatan Dharma is eternal.

          There is no need hence of your even thinking about the God upto MOKSHA LEVEL (Liberation/Freedom/Emancipation/ Mukti) .

          Pranaams to all sadhaks.
          Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

          Narottam

          -------------------------------------------------------------------

          Respected Sirs,
          There is a logical flaw in this reasoning. If no one asserted his RIGHTS how would others know what their DUTIES are? If, for instance, Indians had not asserted their RIGHT to rule themselves, how would the British have known that it was their DUTY to quit India and allow Indians to exercise their right to govern themselves. Mahatma Gandhi was a wise man but people  have introduced legislation  (which is being constantly extended)  laying down the fundamental rights of all human beings, and they, taken collectively, are wiser even than Mahatma Gandhi.
          Respectfully,
          Jasmer Singh

          ============================================

          Let us be clear about onething at the outset.

          WE HAVE NO RIGHTS; ONLY DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE CREATION AND THE
          CREATOR. OUR RIGHT IS NOT TO BE WRONG TO ANY FELLOW BEING. IT IS CRUELLEST OF
          FOLLIES TO ASSUME THAT WE, THE HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR TO OTHER SPECIES AND HENCE
          HAVE A RIGHT O BE MASTERS OF HIS CREATION. DOING OR DISCHARGING OUR DUTY
          PROPERLY ASSURES THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS. cONFINING OUR ENJOYMENT TO WHAT IS
          ALLOTTED TO US (BY EESAA VAASYA, THE ORDAIN OF THE LORD) AND NOT ENCROACHING ON
          OTHERS' TERRITORIES IS OUR JOB.

          EESAA VAASYAM IDAM SARVAM, YAT KINCITJAGATYAAM JAGAT
          TENA TYAKTENA BHUNJEEDHAA, MAA GRIDHAH KASYASI ADDANAM

          IS THE VERY FIRST MANTRA OS THE UPANISHAT.

          We the humans have forgotten this, rather ignored this. We encroached into
          others' territories. We occupied forests, driving animals to which they belong
          to we fell trees making birds and monkeys homeless. We build factories that
          pollute grazing lands of cows and such. By stealing what is others, human is a
          thief and terrorist. He is destroying the earth and planning to do the same to
          other planets. Let us recall one stanza from Maha Bhaarata (not BHaarat).

          ORULEYAVI ONARINCINA NARAVARA APRIYAMBAGU TANA MANAMBUNAKU DAA
          NORULAKU NAVI KUNIKI PARAAYANAMBU PARAMA DHARMAMBULAKELL

          tHIS IS TOLD BY bHEESHMA TO dHARMAJA IN sANTI pARVA. It mens, in brief,
          NOT DOING TO OTHERS THAT WHICH IF DONE BY THEM TO YOU WILL HURT YOUR MANA IS THE
          MOST IMPORTANT DHARMA SOOTRA.

          The sentence is aphoristic. All Paapa (not sin) and dushkriti will vanish from
          the face of earth if HUMANS stick to this principle.

          Krishna Samudrala

          ---------------------------------------------------------------

          Dear Sadaks,
          A child around 7 years of age, how it behaves? Does it have desires (except playing)? Does it takes revenge? Does it worry for tomorrow? Does it not help anyone without see any Dhosa? Does it not forgets what the other child abused or quarreled? Does it think it is it` s duty in all actions it performs? Even it does NOT think this should be left to God and that should be performed as a duty. So on and on---. Be so in mind.
          B.Sathyanarayan

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------

          Jai Hanuman

          Gandhiji was right when he stated - You have only duties and no rights. Your rights are subject matter of relinquishment (tyaag). The rights of others are to be protected. Your Rights exist, no doubt, but they have no corelation with what you can do and what you should do viz with your Duty.

          Your connection with Paramatma is ever existing, and is not dependent upon your believing it to be so. Like: If you close your eyes , it does not mean that Sun is not existing. HOWEVER, You are independent, fully justified, and free to be a believer in God or to be not - because "Duty" has corelation with "power/right to do something" ... The power of belief is not a primary power operating there. Holy Gita gives to all a way out... Believer, non-believer, right believer, wrong believer .... Exercising right to do... or to know ... or to believe !!

          Brother Mike Keenor, in his heart felt reflections shared benevolently for Satsanga, has rightly drawn attention to this primary/secondary power vis a vis duty. In fact my reasoning gave rather more emphasis to the "power of belief" than to "power to do" and to 'Shruti' part more as the topic there was - Need to look at duty of others.

          Duty is - What you CAN do and what you SHOULD do. Here what you CAN do may get invoked. If the circumstances are such that you CANNOT do certain ideal deeds, you need not. Because you can not. But if you can , you should obey your parents and treat them as the highest for you. In abusive, severe environment certainly one CAN NOT do what he/she SHOULD.

          Every worldly relationship is contractual obligation. Every relationship is a bondage. In fact there is a definite and certain debt upon you of father. ( Pitri Rin) Every relationship is a debt upon you. Every relationship entails duties. Your goal is to sever that relationship. That severance (disconnection) takes place only when you do your duty - expectationless service. Old debts repaid, new debts not taken.

          Yardstick? Destruction of Mamata. There is no guilt, fear, shame, regret, ... Once the relationship has 'apparently' come to an end. There is no emotion of disgust, hatred, I could have done this... I could have done that ... Only sweet, affectionate, compassionate remembrance... Only understanding...No one is or was or can be bad... All are good.. All at inner sentiment level !! All Divine play !!!

          Jagat.... Jeeva....Jagdish.

          Namaste Jee

          Jee Jee
          Shashikala

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          Dear Truth Seekers/Lovers!
          I think if one opens up to what Jasmer Singh is saying, it makes sense from another point of view. Duty connotes a sense of "doing something" for someone as someone has some kind of right or expectations etc. It is not necessary that other has right or he/she needs to exercise it, but one can always think other has a right or I have obligation to help and therefore I consider it a duty. This is what is meant generally by "duty"!
          Also in duty it is implied that "I have to do it" even if I don't want to!

          Now why would I feel duty-bound if I don't see it as someone's right or my obligation?

          Suppose no one has any right over me, I can still feel need to help out of love and not necessarily out of duty.

          In other words, Love, not duty, would be more appropriate response when no rights or obligations are involved!

          Now think this way: If I feel Love for a person, don't I rush to help regardless of my duty or person's right?
          Love is more powerful than a sense of duty. Love moves mountain if it has to.
          Love is also unconditional for it to be called Love, and hence is not relative. It is regardless of "duty".

          Jasmerji is right;  Mankind has collectively shown Intelligence by establishing duty/rights towards one another through socio-economic and political systems from time to time! 

          More on the subject later if warranted!
          Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt


          ----------------------------------------------------------

          The gap between actions (duties) and results can not be bridged at the action point. So the whole thing shifts to action.
          You have to act (at whatever level your reasoning, calculative and emotional quotient is) and see what happens.

          You act as you want considering that uncertainty as to results can not be solved as of now.

          There is no flawless choice. But you have to respond any way. When you understand that there is no choice which is flawless, you are hinged on to uncertainty. There is no way this uncertainty can be undone. The energy is concentrated, there arises response which is complete, relaxed, without any psychological dependence upon the outcome.

          What the mind is doing is to treat one side as satisfactory and proceed; it ignores the pain of uncertainty.

          There is nothing (ness) beyond this uncertainty.

          Y V Chawla

          -----------------------------------------------------------------

          Dear Friends

          A small thing i wish to state. While it is our duty to love and obey ones
          parents, I do not think that the Gita does not permit one to see and correct the
          faults of ones parents. While doing so in a firm and respectful manner, one is
          actually performing ones duties. Also in this case one is opposing the evil
          tendencies in the person just as Arjuna was exhorted to fight his teachers and
          guru while opposing the wrong that they did. On the other hand Rama obeyed his
          father even as he was perpetrating an injustice to him and doing an undemocratic
          act of banishing his son who was selected by due process of democratic norms to
          head the state. Who is right Rama in obeying his parents who did wrong or
          Krishna who told Arjuna to oppose Dhritrashtra, Duryodhana, Bhishma and
          Dronacharya?
          Sadhak Vispi Jokhi

          ----------------------------------------------

           

          --------------------------------------------------------

          narayan narayan

          Swamiji has said,  remain ever alert / careful, and what happens leave it up to the Lord.   Fulfill your duties,  and do not have your attention on other's duties.  If you have your sight on other's duties, then you yourself will be spoiled (rather not be focused on your own duties).   The reason why this birth has been taken by you, make it your support for your ultimate goal,  that itself is your duty.  

          IN HINDI 

          swamiji ne kaha hein karne me savdhan raho our honi uper wale pe chood do.
          apna kartavya nibhavo dosro ke kartavya per dhayan mat do .agar dusro ke kartavya per dhayan denge to khud bigad gavoge.jis ke liye janam liya hein us janam ko sarthak kardo.ye hi aapka kartavya he duty hein.
          RAMCHANDRA

          ------------------------------------------------------

          Hari Om

          Not only one should refrain from wishing/understanding/speaking/doing bad with reference to others; but similarly one should not think so about him/her self also. Neither in self nor in others.

          As regards the Arjuna fighting with Bhisma/Drona etc, it was his duty to so. Still before the war started he took blessings of both. He did not fight with them, he fought with injustice, adharma. In fact 100 times more powerful arguments were given by Arjuna to Lord Krishna against non fighting. Krishna replied correctly to his queries in Gita, stated how those were wrong, and adviced correctly to Arjuna.

          Referring to another message, the pride of giving without expecting anything in return is in fact a 'self respect' in the truest meaning of the world. The definition of 'self respect' given by Swamiji is the pride of doing one's duty correctly. Jeeva must have 'self respect' - there is nothing wrong in the same.

          Pranaams to all sadhaks.
          Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

          Narottam

          -------------------------------------------------------

          Reverend Sirs,
          Excuse my persistence: but there can be no "duty " without a  "right" vested in  someone just as there can be no "up" without a "down", or a "right" without a "left" with respect to something. Thus, when we are told that Gandhiji (who was a lawyer and should not have been mistaken on this point) says
          "Human beings have no RIGHTS. They have only DUTIES"  it leaves one perplexed. Gandhiji's message must therefore be interpreted as meaning that  human-beings themselves  have no rights because their only duties are towards GOD  and therefore their duties towards other human beings are only a reflection of their duties towards GOD.
          But, as a considerable portion even of Indian philosophy (example Buddhism) proceeds without the assumption of the existence of GOD, if these Gita Discussions are to be of interest to all, believers and non believers alike,  then the assumption of the existence of GOD should not be brought into the picture. We could simply say, as do the Buddhists, that all human-beings have the common duty towards others (and thus towards themselves) of alleviating human suffering and that, correlatively with this, all human beings have a common right to expect a helping hand in this respect from all other human beings.
          Respectfully,
          Jasmer Singh

          ---------------------------------------------------------


          Jai Hanuman

          Though I don't agree fully with the message, but there is a lot of truth in the following statement:

          Quote
          The Idea of Karma Yoga is interesting because it makes it possible to bridge the gap between believers and non believers and this bridging of the gap is of vital importance because the majority of the scientifically educated people in the world today are non believers, but are not necessarily, for that reason, bad people.
          Unquote

          In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are 'laukik' (worldly) striving (sadhana). Karma/Jnana Yoga can be practiced till completion (Equanimity/Disconnection with inert).... without even thinking a little about God and without believing in existence of God at all. They are scientific processes in themselves. They have support of truthful laws and principles. Both Karma Yogi and Jnana Yogi target 'disconnection' with world.

          But I don't agree people can ever be 'non-believers'. Better expression is not exercising the power to believe with reference to God. Else, you can not, however 'scientifically educated' you may be, remain without exercising your power of belief. You do it constantly in your daily worldly life. Hence you are never a non believer totally. You may not be believing in God. But you have power to believe in tact - applied wrongly.

          The following is not at all a correct statement:

          Quote
          Ego is not, and can not, be destroyed, but is placed elsewhere; pride is not, and can not be, destroyed, but is given another direction.
          Unquote

          The ego/pride can only get extinguished. Nothing else can happen to it ! Because it never exists, it is only assumed. Had it not been possible how could Lord Krishna state that to be goal for a Jeeva in Gita?

          Beauty of Gitaji is that it applies to all- entire humanity. Whichever way you go... . However you are ... Believer, non believer, half believer ..!

          Namaste Jee

          Jee Jee
          Shashikala

          ----------------------------------------------------

          -Shree Hari-

          Namaste!

           I would like to reflect upon a line written by Jee Jee Shashikala Jee, it reflects what appears to me, from my short time at this site, to be about the most contentious issue!

          Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form as far he is concerned - irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled - he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

          When I wrote reflect that is what I meant! I do not have knowledge of the scriptures attesting to that statement. I did reflect in the Gitaji, did not see any direct connection, (proves nothing, as I am not fully versed in the  Bhagavad Gita).

          So I reflected on my experience and some by some Sadhaks.
          As a backdrop for my reflections I found two interesting Shlokas:
          Bhagavadgita Chapter 8 :27
          Knowing these two paths in essence, O Partha , no Yogi is delude. Therefore O Arjuna, be saturated with Yoga, at all times. (Swamiji's comments on the above I believe supports my thoughts  i.e. detaching from the fruit of actions etc).
          Chapter 10 : 20
          I am the self, O conquerer of sleep, seated in the hearts  of all beings. I am the  beginning the middle and the end of all creation.

          A Sadhak, had suffered brutality and cruelty, (one of several  that wrote  in), but this Sadhak  had taken on her mother who was no longer  in control of her faculties. This Sadhak had chosen the higher path of light!
          Could have walked away, sought the bright lights, the low/dark path!
          From my suffering, I was able to give to my sons that which I was denied. Two paths opened up, to perpetuate this cruel lunacy, or to transmute it into love. I chose the latter, well not chose it was automatic!
          So referring to the Shloka 10 : 20 these mutual actions of myself and the Sadhak I mentioned, was revealed to us in our actions. Quite a revelation to me I  can tell you!

          These are my humble refections.

          Om.... Shanti....

          Mike (K).

          -------------------------------------------------------------

          Jai Hanuman

          Continuing my insights on the subject of Selfless Service -

          I generally felt that even very good people can not easily 'renounce' money with the fear that it will be lost forever. They will talk sweet but will hugely hesitate in parting with money even when sicknesses, marriages, deaths etc are there in family. They start bringing out their versions of what according to them is duty.

          But this is not true. Exactly reverse is the scenario. Said Swamiji once: The moment you renounce money , at that moment itself the prarabdha (destiny) for much more money to you gets written. (Receipt of money in future gets guaranteed there). A Renouncer is seen with rare riches in his possession. The giver of money is never deficient.

          Hence service without expectation does not go rewardless from worldly point of view also. Only direct corelation is not visible to the. 'worldly' mind/intellect.

          Our experience suggests that we struggled hugely with finances, but we were never never deficient of money when needed !! Money whenever needed was always received dot on time. World gave money. So this fear should never be there in sadhaks, it is not actually so !! No doubt on that ! We must renounce fearlessly.

          There is another Law supporting this law that 'by giving ,you never actually become deficient ' . In fact, for your sadhana , the renouncing of the worldly things for others is the saadhan, and it is a law that - Whatever is necessary for you to do your kalyaan ( Liberation) is available with you. Hence it is the duty of the Law of Nature and God Himself to make available to you what is needed for your liberation. .

          Why we should look at the duty of others? We don't become deficient by spending on others. We gain. Our own duty is helping us. Why a wife should be concerned as to what is the duty of her husband towards her? By doing her own duty only she can gain. There is no other way of gaining.

          Why a husband should do so ? He should act as a loving bridge between his wife and parents- cracking jokes, before both of them and keep doing what he considers is his duty ? Where is the obstacle to him by his parents or by his wife? He has a double duty. He is to serve his wife as well as his parents and he is to earn also from outside the home. Wife is the Queen of the home. She is 'Annapurna' ! She is the feeder to all connected with the home ! She does more work than you do. She is duty bound to remain always with you. She is a much much bigger renouncer than you can ever imagine to be, leave aside actually being. So serve both.

          Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form- irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled- he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

          Where then is the scope for thinking even about the duty of others? Thus doing only your duty and not looking at others' duty generates imperishable gains for you. Peace for you . Liberation for you.


          Namaste Jee

          Jee Jee
          Shashikala

          -----------------------------------------------

          Shree Hari
          Ram Ram
          Brother Jasmer Singhji, that which is in nature innately takes its course. 
          when a child is hungry and even if it does not cry, mother begins to feed it as her breasts begin to ooze with milk.  What?  Did your son or daughter tell you to love them?   Without any spoken words, you began to love them.  It is therefore to be understood, that duty is not done only upon someone saying something has to be done.  It simply gets done, and the one it gets done for, he is the rightful recipient of that .  
          so be it,
          Vineet Sarvottam   
           
          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          Hari Om

          Sadhak Sridharji Pant. The very first talk of Karma Yoga in Gita starts with 'Karmanye vaa dhikaraste...' ( 2:47) . You have right 'to do' . In fact you have only 3 rights (powers) - to do something, to know something, to believe something. There is no fourth right or power which SELF has got. You are supposed to exercise your 'right to do' by doing for others ( not for yourself) ; your 'right to know' for knowing yourself ( not for knowing others) and your 'right to believe' in placing your belief in your own Paramatma ( not for world/ not your own) !!

          Pranaams to all Sadhaks.
          Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

          Narottam

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          Jai Hanuman

          Frankly I could never understand the very wisdom behind- 'looking at the duty of others' from the worldly perspective too, what to talk from sadhana prospective. I have seen a lot of quarrels in families due to this fruitless activity- unnecessary quarrels of being critical or judger or evaluater of the conduct of others.

          In fact, our own duty only helps us. Why a wife should be concerned as to what is the duty of her husband towards her and towards his parents ? By doing her own duty only she can gain. There is no other way of gaining.

          Why a husband should do so ? He should always act as a loving bridge between his wife and parents- cracking jokes before both of them, keeping both in good humor... and keep doing what he considers is his duty ! Where is the obstacle to him in this way of behaviour ? He has multiple duties. Wife is the Queen of the home. She is 'Annapurna'- feeder to all ! A 'home' is only a 'home' when there is wife inside it. Else where is the very 'home'? - it may be a hotel, an inn, a guest house, a math, a house, an ashram, a tabela, a stable, a den, a lair ....but not a 'home' unless in that a wife is present. She does more work than you do. Their goals may be same, but duties are different. Where is the clash then? She is a much much bigger renouncer than you can ever imagine to be, leave aside actually being. So serve both and earn too !

          Why a son should evaluate as to what is duty of his parents towards him? They are God in human form as far he is concerned - irrespective of how actually they are- he has a right to deem them as God - fully entitled - he is authorised by Scriptures to so believe and to so act.

          Where then is the scope for thinking even about the duty of others? In which worldly relationship ? Thus doing only your duty and not looking at others' duty generates imperishable gains for you.

          Namaste Jee

          Jee Jee
          Shashikala

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Hari Om

          The sadhana for Karma Yoga makes you see no faults in others. I learnt a very strange but true law. Law is - If You think someone to be bad, that person will become bad ! How strange a law ! Reason: You are 'satya sankalp' ! You are part of God. If you think that someone is bad, he and you both become bad. You immediately for all , he.. vis-a-vis you !! This is an experience I am sharing with sadhaks.

          Hence real Karma Yoga means - NOT wishing/understanding/speaking/doing bad to others by mind/speech/body. This ultimate principle of Karma Yoga makes you effortlessly /egolessly doing good only. Either you will not do anything ( and thereby realise God- as God is realised ONLY by non-doing, never by doing) or you shall become 'sarva bhoot hite rata' ( again a necessity under all 3 yogas for Self/ God Realisation ) !! You assume universality when you don't wish/understand/do bad to others. You can say even to any person anywhere (to all known or unknown persons ) : Sir ! I did not do anything wrong to you ! But can you say so to all : Sir ! I did good you ? No ! You become limited when you set your eye on 'doing good'. But you assume unlimitedness , when you decide " I shall not wish/understand/do/talk bad to/for/about others" ! You , Divine Sadhaks, are UNLIMITED, UNIVERSAL, by your very form and nature.

          Pranaams to all sadhaks.
          Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

          Narottam

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Respected Sadhaks, I do firmly believe that one has to respect his mother, father and Guru. But in connection with tracing the relationship between rights and duties I everytime reading Geeta, that I do every day as the first task, I am reminded of the fact that if it was my duty then it was the duty of Arjuna too not to fight Bhism (his grandfather) or Dronacharyam his Guru. Obviously in practice under the guidence of Shri Krishna he faught Bhism and the great spritualist Udhister lied or managed that only half sentence is herd by his Guru. In this context I am perplexed finding out what is right and what is duty.Was not  the rght of Bhism to be respected by his progeny?

          Will someone kindly enlighten me?
          Shridhar Pant
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Reverend Sirs,
          The Idea of Karma Yoga is interesting because it makes it possible to bridge the gap between believers and non believers and this bridging of the gap is of vital importance because the majority of the scientifically educated people in the world today are non believers, but are not necessarily, for that reason, bad people. They also wish to live in a happier world free of conflict but at the same time in a world free of merely tradition based imaginary creations.  In scientific terms Karma Yoga has a name:  "sublimation of an instinctual drive".  Ego is not, and can not, be destroyed, but is placed elsewhere; pride is not, and can not be, destroyed, but is given another direction. One takes PRIDE now in giving without receiving anything in return, but that nevertheless is PRIDE.
          Respectfully,
          Jasmer Singh
          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Hari Om

          The core principle of Karma Yoga is - I don't have to do anything for myself. I am complete in myself. I don't need anything for myself. I have got everything including this body/mind/intellect, worldly things, money,health, wealth, power, position etc - from world only. Let me selflessly employ the same in the service of the world.

          When you do as above- in the end world ( things/body you have) gets employed in the world ( in service of others)only

          - and you being SELF remain behind 'unattached' - peaceful , useful to all and not causing any problem to anyone.

          You become 'Shaant'. (peaceful- because association with world only caused lack of peace and as renunciation instantly results into peace. You have also become 'asang' (disconnected from inert) ! The bondage of 'mineness' (mamata) has broken. You are free. Thus you have become

          1 'nirmam' (mamataless- It is a law that - Selfless Service destroys mamata);

          2 'nirahankaar' (egoless - It is a law that if 'mamata' is gone, me-ness (ego) goes with it, automatically ) ;

          3 'nispruh'/ 'nishkaam' (not worrying for self maintenance. You do not need anything for yourself . You are renouncer of them. World starts taking care of you )

          4 'pumanscharati' - a free man wandering - ( nothing remains to be done, the very desire 'to do something ' extinguishes). You are 'Liberated' You are free. You have no bondage. You have nothing left to do.

          Thereby , exactly meeting the yardsticks set in BG 2:71 and thus gaining SHAANT RAS ( The Nectar of Bliss and Peace) . Side by side you have also known that after knowing which nothing remains to be known. Further, You have become SARVA BHOOT HITE RATAA . You may still be doing Lok Sangrah but actually You are LIBERATED WHILE LIVING ! Unattached.

          So simple, so easy to implement, so logical, so practical, ... VILAKSHAN are the formulae given by Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for benefit of humanity at large. Look at the definition of DUTY by Swamiji - What you can do and what you should do.

          Now tell me what is so difficult about "Only selflessly doing what is your duty, and not looking at the duty of others"? Just by doing this simple thing, Divine Sadhaks, you get LIBERATED !

          What is needed. A bhava only. Just a resolution, an inner bhava. If you can believe me, believe .. Nothing more than this simple decision is needed. Rest everything is arranged automatically by Laws of Nature. You simply act with this motive and do your duty with whatever you have !

          What Saints and Sages do not give to the humanity at large ? They give every thing which they have. Everything !! Nothing they keep with them. Nothing !! Swamiji gave, gave and gave and kept on giving ! He gave only to the world. Only He gave !

          Liberation ! Peace !!

          Pranaams to all sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.

          Narottam

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          Dear sadaks,
          All human beings know what is duty. Now a days duty without bribe is not working. Very rare is duty conscience man. Such a rare man We can easily know that he has faith on Bagavan and so he is dutiful. Then doing duty is HIS divine grace alone. However we may think to be dutiful, HIS grace needed. Simple Example: Arjuna wanted to do his duty, but without Sri Krishna it would not have been success. So think of HIM at all times and duty performs on its own.
          B.Sathyanarayan

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          Will any Sadhak help me understand the use of word right (Adhikar). The little I have read the Scriptures I could not find the term right. Everywhere be it in Vedas, Ramayan or Mahabharat including GEETA I

          find talk about duties. In Geeta Shri Krishna asks Arjun to perform his duty. Nowhere he talks about rights. Any quote on the point will help. Some Sadhak has said even Gandhi ji said humans have duties, no rights. Kindly help.

          Shridhar Pant

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          Jai Hanuman

          Continuing my insights on the subject of Selfless Service -

          I generally felt that even very good people can not easily 'renounce' money with the fear that it will be lost forever. They will talk sweet but will hugely hesitate in parting with money even when sicknesses, marriages, deaths etc are there in family. They start bringing out their versions of what according to them is duty.

          But this is not true. Exactly reverse is the scenario. Said Swamiji once: The moment you renounce money , at that moment itself the prarabdha (destiny) for much more money to you gets written. (Receipt of money in future gets guaranteed there). A Renouncer is seen with rare riches in his possession. The giver of money is never deficient.

          Hence service without expectation does not go rewardless from worldly point of view also. Only direct corelation is not visible to the. 'worldly' mind/intellect.

          Our experience suggests that we struggled hugely with finances, but we were never never deficient of money when needed !! Money whenever needed was always received dot on time. World gave money. So this fear should never be there in sadhaks, it is not actually so !! No doubt on that ! We must renounce fearlessly.

          There is another Law supporting this law that 'by giving ,you never actually become deficient ' . In fact, for your sadhana , the renouncing of the worldly things for others is the saadhan, and it is a law that - Whatever is necessary for you to do your kalyaan ( Liberation) is available with you. Hence it is the duty of the Law of Nature and God Himself to make available to you what is needed for your liberation. .


          Namaste Jee

          Jee Jee
          Shashikala


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          When one does not seek release, fulfilment through results- there arises action, which is complete.
          When one understands that uncertainty as to results can not be solved as 0f now (that is, at the action point).
          The energy is concentrated. There arises action, which is relaxed, not binding.
          The question of duties, responsibilities, rights has no use. It is conflict in itself.
          The System is self sustained.
          Y V Chawla

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          Hari Om

          I have a little bit of experience of practicing Karma Yoga as taught by Swamiji. An experience of nearly 25 years.
          This principle doing one's duty and not looking at other's duty ( service ) is... a beauty ! It works wonders in making family life, surroundings dutiful and peaceful. IT ACTS VERY FAST. Entire kalah (fighting) ends. The very cause of quarrelling takes a hit. Egos stop clashing at home. Most of quarrels take place because : Not my duty, your duty. You acted so, hence I did so. Do I not have not any rights? Who is more important to you me or they? I also want to take some rest. Am I donkey? Why he is not working? Why did you marry me, if parents are important to you ? What i

          (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

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