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  • Erika Westberg
    ... *snippage* Given her likeness to Lucrezia, what if she s another cousin to Agatha, or maybe even a young aunt? Maybe she s been a prisoner in the Castle
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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      On 8/2/07, Sergei Alderman <sergeial@...> wrote:

      > --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "wusemajor" <Wuse_Major@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Well this is an interesting development. Is this the same Council
      > > Tarvek was associated with? It looks like their female Heterodyne
      > > plan has little or nothing to do with Agatha and much more to do with
      > > that legend Klaus and Gil were babbling about.
      > >
      >
      > OK, I just finished a full re-read. Yes, I think it is the same
      > council. Actually, I think the word "council" was only mentioned once
      > before on the 20060531 page. Aaronev was the leader of an "order"
      > whose original purpose was to serve the Storm King. From what Anevka
      > says on the aforementioned page, it sounds like the council was the
      > inner circle of that order, and they were the ones to decide that the
      > order would throw in with Lucrezia.
      >
      > I think I've figured out what the real goal of the pretender is. If
      > she is working for that same council, then they are working to support
      > Lucrezia's goals.

      *snippage*

      Given her likeness to Lucrezia, what if she's another cousin to
      Agatha, or maybe even a young aunt? Maybe she's been a prisoner in the
      Castle and that's why - she made some trouble, supported Lucy and was
      a Mongfish. Then she somehow managed to escape, and quickly went back
      to the council/the order.

      Even the names Lucrezia and Zola feel to me as if they could come from
      the same family. Well, one is italian-ish and the other one is
      greek-ish, but anyway... both have z? Ah, maybe it's just my warped
      brain trying to make connections.

      Zola Mongfish and Agatha Heterodyne. This could get interesting.

      /Erika
    • burning_ut
      There s some interesting speculation that Zola s council might be connected with Aaronev s secret society (the shadow knights? I m too lazy to go back and
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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        There's some interesting speculation that Zola's council might be
        connected with Aaronev's secret society (the shadow knights? I'm
        too lazy to go back and check).

        While it's possible, I have my doubts. Right now, whichever of the
        goals the order was working toward, the fall of Sturmhalten is
        rather a disaster for them. No matter what happened to Klaus in the
        process, I can't see it being viewed as a fortuitous turn events for
        the order.

        If the plan has to do with the original program of reestablishing
        the Storm King, it is a severe problem for them that Tarvek, the
        heir apparent, is either dead or captured. They almost certainly
        don't know his fate, since Sturmhalten has been "contained," but
        they can certainly guess the likely consequences of being prince-in-
        residence when Klaus administers a Wulfenbach smack-down.

        If the plan has to do with aiding Lucrezia, they probably don't know
        that Lucrezia actually is back. Furthermore, they have no reason to
        suspect she will be coming back, since the summoning-engine is in
        Sturmhalten, and therefore in the Baron's hands. If somehow they
        know that Lucrezia has returned, they probably wouldn't be so off-
        hand about "the girl" from Sturmhalten. The dots between Agatha and
        Lucrezia shouldn't be too hard to connect for anyone who knows about
        the plan to bring back Lucrezia, at least if they think the plan has
        succeeded.

        I'm inclined to think that conspiracies just don't have a lot of
        choices about what to call their upper echelon, and that the use of
        the word "council" is a coincidence.
      • Sergei Alderman
        ... Maybe she escaped, but there s no reason to assume that she didn t just complete her sentence. Yet. and quickly went back ... She could be a Mongfish, but
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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          --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "Erika Westberg"
          <erika.westberg@...> wrote:

          > Given her likeness to Lucrezia, what if she's another cousin to
          > Agatha, or maybe even a young aunt?
          > Maybe she's been a prisoner in the
          > Castle and that's why - she made some trouble, supported Lucy and was
          > a Mongfish. Then she somehow managed to escape,

          Maybe she escaped, but there's no reason to assume that she didn't
          just complete her sentence. Yet.

          and quickly went back
          > to the council/the order.
          >
          > Even the names Lucrezia and Zola feel to me as if they could come from
          > the same family. Well, one is italian-ish and the other one is
          > greek-ish, but anyway... both have z? Ah, maybe it's just my warped
          > brain trying to make connections.
          >
          > Zola Mongfish and Agatha Heterodyne. This could get interesting.
          >
          > /Erika
          >

          She could be a Mongfish, but if she were a prominent one who had been
          sentenced to the Castle for causing trouble for the Empire, you'd
          think people would recognize her. Perhaps she had been kept hidden
          and incognito, just like Agatha was.

          Or she could have been given plastic surgery to look like the product
          of a union between Bill and Lucrezia, considering that their plan was
          apparently to present her as a fake Heterodyne heir even before the
          real Heterodyne heir surprised everyone by popping up.

          (Which begs the question, if everyone thinks that the Heterodyne heir
          is male, and they've been plotting this since long before Agatha came
          on the scene, why are they using a female Heterodyne heir? It could
          be coincidence. If Agatha had never showed up, they could have dolled
          up one of the top-hatted men as the Heterodyne son, and Zola could
          have taken the public role of his exotic fiancee, perhaps, along with
          the more important secret role of death-trap expert. Or perhaps O + S
          know the secret that the true Heterodyne heir is female?)

          If she does turn out to be a Mongfish, I wonder if she is sparky? And
          therefore (if my guesses turn out to be right) a member of the Order,
          instead of a revenant.
        • burning_ut
          ... I think Zola was the chosen heir from the beginning of the operation, and I don t think it was because they had some advanced knowledge of Agatha.
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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            > "...why are they using a female Heterodyne heir?"

            I think Zola was the chosen "heir" from the beginning of the
            operation, and I don't think it was because they had some advanced
            knowledge of Agatha.

            *Tiktoffen has been in the Castle for three years. When he heard of
            a female Heterodyne, his first assumption was that it was Zola.

            *We don't know what information he is able to get about the outside
            world, but the events at Sturmhalten were news to him, so he really
            couldn't have anticipated a change in plans (and if he had
            anticipated a change in plans, why would he be surprised that Zola
            was early?).

            *Tiktoffen did not seem to entertain the notion that the female
            Heterodyne could be real (as opposed to being Zola) when he first
            heard of her presence, so he at least did not have prior knowledge
            of her. The others in the conspiracy seem less concerned about
            Agatha than I think they should if they knew she was real, but this
            is shaky as evidence.

            Now why would they choose a female heir when there are stories about
            a male heir? Unknown at this point, but I lean with the people that
            theorize that it has to do with the "fairy tale" Gil guesses is at
            the back of the plot. There's something special about a Heterodyne
            female that is yet to be revealed.

            The conspirators may have decided that if they can make their heir
            plausible enough, people would be willing to overlook the missing
            son. So far the evidence is that this would not be a stupid
            supposition. The local boy in the Black Guard dismissed Agatha's
            reality, as did von Mekkan and Vanamonde initially. However, they
            are in the minority. They base their decision on what they think is
            inside information, but we don't know how solid that information
            is. And von Mekkan at least concedes that while it is impossible
            that Agatha is the heir, impossibility is not a good enough reason
            to conclude that its not true.

            The rumor mill did not seem to be dismissive of the possibility of a
            female Heterodyne. The crowd watching Zola also seemed fairly open,
            although that might have been an appreciation of good theater. The
            people at the coffee shop are also significant. When they gathered
            that Agatha might be a Heterodyne claimant, they got *ready* to
            treat her as an imposter, but they didn't consider her being female
            to be sufficient proof.

            Big name characters have also accepted her without fretting over the
            male heir question. Klaus figures out that Agatha is a Heterodyne
            from Adam and Lilith coming for her, but while he considers the
            possibility that she's Barry's daughter he doesn't dismiss the
            possibility of her being Bill and Lucrezia's. While Klaus was away
            for the Other war, it's hard to believe he never heard about the
            alleged son. Wooster has been shown to have pretty thorough
            intelligence on what happened when the Other attacked Castle
            Heterodyne, and he also fully accepts Agatha's claim. Master Payne
            and the rest of the circus are used to con-artists and are experts
            on Heterodyne mythology, and they never consider that Agatha might
            be pulling a scam.
          • sanf_sara
            ... I agree with you, for all the lovely reasons you cited. I would also like to add the meta-reason that having multiple villains who sometimes work against
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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              > I'm inclined to think <snip snip> that the use of
              > the word "council" is a coincidence.

              I agree with you, for all the lovely reasons you cited.

              I would also like to add the meta-reason that having multiple villains who sometimes work
              against each other makes for a more interesting story than one where all of the villains are
              united by virtue of being evil. Or some other such nonsense.
            • Sergei Alderman
              ... That is very possible. Council is a very generic term, and there are lots of reasons someone might want to control Heterodyne Castle. Destroying it
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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                --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "burning_ut" <mac.almy@...> wrote:

                > I'm inclined to think that conspiracies just don't have a lot of
                > choices about what to call their upper echelon, and that the use of
                > the word "council" is a coincidence.

                That is very possible. "Council" is a very generic term, and there
                are lots of reasons someone might want to control Heterodyne Castle.
                Destroying it being option #2 is a little trickier, but at this point
                it's still possible that Zola is the only one in this conspiracy who
                feels that way.

                But if they *are* the same council, it could very well fit. Remember
                Lu/Agatha's reaction to the idea of going to Heterodyne Castle? She's
                scared of that place. And the fact that they know nothing about the
                return of Lucrezia doesn't necessarily signify. They've probably been
                working on taking over or destroying Castle Heterodyne ever since
                Lucrezia first disappeared. They have no idea that Aaronev's mission
                finally succeeded, and they probably know that if the "girl from
                Sturmhalten" *was* Lucrezia in a new guise, she would stay as far away
                from Mechanicsburg as possible.
              • jsheikg
                The Man Who Would Be Storm King is likely alive and has enough wiggle-room to convince Klaus to let him continue to play Prince, since Klaus is convinced
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 2, 2007
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                  The Man Who Would Be Storm King is likely alive and has enough
                  wiggle-room to convince Klaus to let him continue to play Prince,
                  since Klaus is convinced Lucrezia can suborn just about anybody (she
                  hoodwinked *him* after all). The real problem is the status of
                  Other/Anevka and whether it/she will continue to co-operate with Tarvek.

                  As for the New and Improved Summoning engine, we know Klaus doesn't
                  have it, since it was evacuated from Sturmhalten well before Klaus
                  descended along with a goodly number of Hive Engines.

                  http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060707

                  http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060710

                  Both Tarvek and Other/Anevka probably know the destination.

                  If the "Council" is the ruling body of the Shadow Knights and is
                  behind Zola and Company, I suspect is is simply a matter of "Use It Or
                  Lose It" and not contingent on Tarvek's status.
                • vumbrahotmailcom
                  ... She lost the pink, the frills and the sparkling, she is no longer smiling vapidly and she isn t playing dumb, and NOW you don t like her ? What does a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 5, 2007
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                    > > I am strongly disliking Miss Zola at this moment. For the record.
                    > >
                    > Me too. I want her hurt. A lot.
                    >
                    > Thea
                    >

                    She lost the pink, the frills and the sparkling, she is no longer
                    smiling vapidly and she isn't playing dumb, and NOW you don't like
                    her ?

                    What does a villain have to do to get liked around here ?

                    Torquemada
                  • vumbrahotmailcom
                    ... The Geisters hauled it away with them http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060707 ... As if she would entrust anyone with that plan. Too many
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 5, 2007
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                      > suspect she will be coming back, since the summoning-engine is in
                      > Sturmhalten, and therefore in the Baron's hands.

                      The Geisters hauled it away with them
                      http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060707

                      > The dots between Agatha and
                      > Lucrezia shouldn't be too hard to connect for anyone who knows about
                      > the plan to bring back Lucrezia, at least if they think the plan has
                      > succeeded.
                      >

                      As if she would entrust anyone with that plan. Too many powerhungry
                      pretedners around. Wilhelm and the Geisters were loyal, the rest must
                      have been kept in the dark (she couldn't very well take Wilhelm's
                      twisted kids into consideration that many years ago)

                      > I'm inclined to think that conspiracies just don't have a lot of
                      > choices about what to call their upper echelon, and that the use of
                      > the word "council" is a coincidence.
                      >

                      The Chosen ? The Cabal ? The Exalted Ones ? Illuminati Prime ?
                      Half the fun of starting a conspiracy is making up all the funny names
                      and titles !

                      Torquemada
                    • Michael Lehmeier
                      ... Liked or enjoyed? I very much enjoy a villain that I hate! That I want defeated, hurt and humiliated. But I don t like such a villain! A villain that I
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 5, 2007
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                        > > > I am strongly disliking Miss Zola at this moment. For the record.
                        > > >
                        > > Me too. I want her hurt. A lot.
                        > >
                        >
                        > She lost the pink, the frills and the sparkling, she is no longer
                        > smiling vapidly and she isn't playing dumb, and NOW you don't like
                        > her ?
                        >
                        > What does a villain have to do to get liked around here ?

                        Liked or enjoyed?
                        I very much enjoy a villain that I hate! That I want defeated, hurt and
                        humiliated. But I don't like such a villain!

                        A villain that I like would have to be intelligent (not just cunning or
                        clever), charismatic and would have to have a somewhat strong (even if
                        twisted or strange) sense for honor.

                        >From what I have seen, Zola doesn't apply for any of those
                        characteristics.
                        Okay, maybe intelligent, but it's too soon to tell.

                        Still, she seems to be a worthy opponent for Agatha and I hate her and
                        so will be really happy when she meets her well-deserved doom, and as
                        such she is a villain I really enjoy! :)

                        BTW, a villain I can never, ever enjoy is a dumb villain. Alas, all too
                        many villains in modern fiction are really dumb. They probably have to
                        be because the writers always run out excuses how their heroes could
                        defeat a clever, cunning or intelligent villain.
                        Zola so far seems to be a clever villain. I hope she stays that way.
                        Until her downfall of course. ;)
                      • vumbrahotmailcom
                        ... too ... I always cheer on the bad guys ! Always ! I was ever so disappointed with Lu. She had none of the qualities you mentioned, and I found myself
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 5, 2007
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                          > Still, she seems to be a worthy opponent for Agatha and I hate her and
                          > so will be really happy when she meets her well-deserved doom, and as
                          > such she is a villain I really enjoy! :)
                          >
                          > BTW, a villain I can never, ever enjoy is a dumb villain. Alas, all
                          too
                          > many villains in modern fiction are really dumb. They probably have to
                          > be because the writers always run out excuses how their heroes could
                          > defeat a clever, cunning or intelligent villain.
                          > Zola so far seems to be a clever villain. I hope she stays that way.
                          > Until her downfall of course. ;)
                          >

                          I always cheer on the bad guys ! Always !
                          I was ever so disappointed with Lu. She had none of the qualities you
                          mentioned, and I found myself hoping for Agatha's return, even though I
                          knew it was against my own creed. So I guess I saw Zola as an
                          improvement over Lu, though she isn't a very strong characther (yet)
                          compared to people like Klaus, Bang, Tarvek and Anevka (I really liked
                          her - snif !)to mention a few people in the gray/dark area.

                          But you have to give Zola points for audacity. Facing the crowd and
                          facing the Kestle is rather daring compared to the lair-dwelling
                          armchair villains we all know and love.

                          Torquemada
                        • William Jackson
                          But you have to give Zola points for audacity. Facing the crowd and facing the Kestle is rather daring compared to the lair-dwelling armchair villains we all
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 6, 2007
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                            ""But you have to give Zola points for audacity.
                            Facing the crowd and
                            facing the Kestle is rather daring compared to the
                            lair-dwelling
                            armchair villains we all know and love.

                            Torquemada"""

                            Wait a minute, wait a minute. I have it!

                            Zola is Dark Agatha: the Anti-Heterodyne!



                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Need a vacation? Get great deals
                            to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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                          • Lizzie
                            ... Aren t we thinking that she is somehow some kind of Heterodyne, or a by-blow or something? Some kind of almost ? Lizzie -- Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 6, 2007
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                              William Jackson wrote:
                              > ""But you have to give Zola points for audacity.
                              > Facing the crowd and
                              > facing the Kestle is rather daring compared to the
                              > lair-dwelling
                              > armchair villains we all know and love.
                              >
                              > Torquemada"""
                              >
                              > Wait a minute, wait a minute. I have it!
                              >
                              > Zola is Dark Agatha: the Anti-Heterodyne!
                              >
                              Aren't we thinking that she is somehow some kind of Heterodyne, or a
                              "by-blow" or something? Some kind of "almost"?

                              Lizzie
                              --

                              Elizabeth Apgar Triano

                              www.lizziewriter.com <http://www.lizziewriter.com/>

                              amor vincit omnia

                              www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org
                              <http://www.danburymineralogicalsociety.org/>
                            • rja_carnegie
                              ... Hey, any cases of two conspiracies with the same name colliding without realising it, and hilarious confusion? Conceivably the squabbling groups of rebels
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 6, 2007
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                                --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "burning_ut" <mac.almy@...> wrote:
                                > I'm inclined to think that conspiracies just don't
                                > have a lot of choices about what to call their
                                > upper echelon,

                                Hey, any cases of two conspiracies with the same name
                                colliding without realising it, and hilarious confusion?

                                Conceivably the squabbling groups of rebels in
                                _Monty Python's Life of Brian_ would count. Others?
                              • spottedkittyuk
                                ... There s an amusingly confusing clash of secret societies in one of PTerry s Discworld books: Guards! Guards! , I think. The one with the dragon.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 8, 2007
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                                  --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "rja_carnegie" <rja_carnegie@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Conceivably the squabbling groups of rebels in
                                  > _Monty Python's Life of Brian_ would count. Others?

                                  There's an amusingly confusing clash of secret societies in one of
                                  PTerry's Discworld books: "Guards! Guards!", I think. The one with the
                                  dragon.
                                • kapoofaren
                                  ... I just realized I posted this way back in 2007. Ok, so other people has probably cashed in Moxana points already, but I ve got few enough so I ll grab some
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 26, 2011
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                                    --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "Erika Westberg" <erika.westberg@...> wrote:
                                    > Given her likeness to Lucrezia, what if she's another cousin to
                                    > Agatha, or maybe even a young aunt? Maybe she's been a prisoner in the
                                    > Castle and that's why - she made some trouble, supported Lucy and was
                                    > a Mongfish. Then she somehow managed to escape, and quickly went back
                                    > to the council/the order.
                                    >
                                    > Even the names Lucrezia and Zola feel to me as if they could come from
                                    > the same family. Well, one is italian-ish and the other one is
                                    > greek-ish, but anyway... both have z? Ah, maybe it's just my warped
                                    > brain trying to make connections.
                                    >

                                    I just realized I posted this way back in 2007. Ok, so other people has probably cashed in Moxana points already, but I've got few enough so I'll grab some anyway. She is a cousin to Agatha, she is of the Mongfish family, and she has been a prisoner in the Castle. Go me!

                                    /Erika
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