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Artificial Intelligence?

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  • Blade
    Clanks follow orders -- they a far more sophisticated, in many ways, than the robots we have here and now, yet they are still clanks/robots/automata. But
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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      Clanks follow orders -- they a far more sophisticated, in many ways,
      than the robots we have here and now, yet they are still
      clanks/robots/automata.

      But Moxana "was devastated" when Tinka was taken. When we saw the
      flashback to Master Payne finding the two of them, they were
      clutching each other for comfort, plainly showing fear. This is far,
      far more "human", more alive, than any other clank we've seen.

      In fact, the only thing similar is the independence of thought shown
      by Agatha's clanks -- both the dingbots and (to a lesser extent, due
      perhaps to shorter observation) by her Othar Rescue Device.

      No one since Van Rijn has been able even to examine his work without
      destroying it. But Agatha seems to have some of the same spark, the
      same clarity and light, that can make self-aware clanks.

      Another sudden thought: Lucrezia made mechanical water-beasties
      (fish, frogs, etc.) I wonder if the Mongfish line is in any way
      related to the Van Rijns ....?

      Blade
    • pmaclanderson
      I don t see where water-beasties come in. Unless Blade is suggesting that the Muses are Rijn-maidens....
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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        I don't see where water-beasties come in. Unless Blade is suggesting
        that the Muses are Rijn-maidens....

        --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "Blade" <elbereth@d...> wrote:

        >
        > Another sudden thought: Lucrezia made mechanical water-beasties
        > (fish, frogs, etc.) I wonder if the Mongfish line is in any way
        > related to the Van Rijns ....?
        >
        > Blade
      • John Reiher
        ... Are they self aware or are they very clever automatons? If Moxana could talk, could she pass a Turing test and sound like a real live human, or would you
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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          On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:24 AM, Blade wrote:

          > But Moxana "was devastated" when Tinka was taken. When we saw the
          > flashback to Master Payne finding the two of them, they were
          > clutching each other for comfort, plainly showing fear. This is far,
          > far more "human", more alive, than any other clank we've seen.
          >
          > In fact, the only thing similar is the independence of thought shown
          > by Agatha's clanks -- both the dingbots and (to a lesser extent, due
          > perhaps to shorter observation) by her Othar Rescue Device.

          Are they "self aware" or are they very clever automatons?

          If Moxana could talk, could she pass a Turing test and sound like a
          real live human, or would you trip her up with some simple questions?

          If they are self aware, then Van Rijn was a genius without compare.
          To create a mechanical intelligence is something beyond anything
          we've seen so far.

          --
          ------------------------
          Kedamono@...
          http://www.ahtg.net
          http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnreiher/
          ------------------------
          "Another one of them new worlds.
          No beer, no women, no pool parlors - nothin'.
          Nothing to do but throw rocks at tin cans and we got to bring our own
          tin cans."
          ---- Ship's Cook, United Planets Cruiser C-57D
          Forbidden Planet







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Blade
          LOL -- goot vun! Rijn-maidens , *chortle*. No, I meant to suggest an hypothetical family predisposition toward making unusual clanks. I have no idea one way
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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            LOL -- goot vun! "Rijn-maidens", *chortle*.

            No, I meant to suggest an hypothetical family predisposition toward
            making unusual clanks. I have no idea one way or another how intricate
            or self-aware Agatha's mum's clanks were ... but finding out that bit
            of information might Mean Something.

            I was also wandering in thought about the idea that Agatha's slef-aware
            little dingbots might turn out to be the intellectual descendents of
            the Muses. It would be interesting to be able to trace that particular
            leading edge of clank-talent through the Mongfish line, since
            presumably any Van Rijn/Heterodyne connection would be known and
            (perhaps) famous ...

            Blade @;7


            --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "pmaclanderson" <pmanderson@h...>
            wrote:
            > I don't see where water-beasties come in. Unless Blade is suggesting
            > that the Muses are Rijn-maidens....
            >
            > --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "Blade" <elbereth@d...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Another sudden thought: Lucrezia made mechanical water-beasties
            > > (fish, frogs, etc.) I wonder if the Mongfish line is in any way
            > > related to the Van Rijns ....?
            > >
            > > Blade
          • jsheikg
            ... Clanks in general seem to get their operating instructions by a process of imprinting rather than programming as we know it. The sophistication of the
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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              --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "Blade" <elbereth@d...> wrote:
              > LOL -- goot vun! "Rijn-maidens", *chortle*.
              >
              > No, I meant to suggest an hypothetical family predisposition toward
              > making unusual clanks. I have no idea one way or another how intricate
              > or self-aware Agatha's mum's clanks were ... but finding out that bit
              > of information might Mean Something.
              >
              > I was also wandering in thought about the idea that Agatha's slef-aware
              > little dingbots might turn out to be the intellectual descendents of
              > the Muses. It would be interesting to be able to trace that particular
              > leading edge of clank-talent through the Mongfish line, since
              > presumably any Van Rijn/Heterodyne connection would be known and
              > (perhaps) famous ...
              >
              > Blade @;7

              Clanks in general seem to get their operating instructions by a
              process of imprinting rather than programming as we know it. The
              sophistication of the minds of both Muses and Dingbots show just how
              subtle it can be. The Muses emote as people would and the Dingbots
              are special in that, unlike any other clanks I know of, they are able
              to repeat the imprint (albeit imperfectly) to make more Dingbots. The
              van Rijn genetic connection to Agatha may have occured more than once,
              it's been more than 200 years after all, and I suspect it was the
              nature of her music that called to the Muse. DuMedd could fill us in
              on that, since he seems to be one of the few family members left intact.
            • Michael Telford
              ... I m not entirely sure the current US President could pass a Turing test.
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                > If Moxana could talk, could she pass a Turing test and sound like a
                > real live human, or would you trip her up with some simple questions?

                I'm not entirely sure the current US President could pass a Turing test.
              • Jonathan Burns
                I keep coming up with the most devious implications, I know. On waking this morning it occurred to me: Moxana s new game, centering round Miss Clay has as
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                  I keep coming up with the most devious implications, I know. On waking
                  this morning it occurred to me:

                  Moxana's "new game, centering round Miss Clay" has as its goal
                  the reuniting of the Muses. For long years there has been no
                  possible strategy in view, or Moxana has kept it to herself.

                  Then Agatha shows up. Finally, the very piece Moxana needs.
                • arondell
                  I m not really sure that there is that much of a distinction between biological constructs and mineral/metal ones in the GG universe. Certainly we have seen
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                    I'm not really sure that there is that much of a distinction between
                    biological constructs and mineral/metal ones in the GG universe.
                    Certainly we have seen evidence that the hetrodynes built control
                    mechanisms into the jaegers. Also Von Pinn seemed to have a built in
                    instinct to obey orders from people in the Mongfish family.

                    Regarding the muses I had the impression there fame came not just from
                    there intellect but in their abilty to inspire. Obviously clanks with
                    rudamentary mental powers are quite common. Klaus for instance has
                    numerous soldier clanks that can be given simple orders and have
                    enough judgement to be able to handle a heavy combat situation. It
                    follows that if he wanted to spend extra time and effort he could make
                    a clank of human level intellect and felxibility.

                    Arondell

                    --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "Blade" <elbereth@d...> wrote:
                    > Clanks follow orders -- they a far more sophisticated, in many
                    ways,
                    > than the robots we have here and now, yet they are still
                    > clanks/robots/automata.
                    >
                    > But Moxana "was devastated" when Tinka was taken. When we saw the
                    > flashback to Master Payne finding the two of them, they were
                    > clutching each other for comfort, plainly showing fear. This is
                    far,
                    > far more "human", more alive, than any other clank we've seen.
                    >
                    > In fact, the only thing similar is the independence of thought
                    shown
                    > by Agatha's clanks -- both the dingbots and (to a lesser extent,
                    due
                    > perhaps to shorter observation) by her Othar Rescue Device.
                    >
                    > No one since Van Rijn has been able even to examine his work
                    without
                    > destroying it. But Agatha seems to have some of the same spark,
                    the
                    > same clarity and light, that can make self-aware clanks.
                    >
                    > Another sudden thought: Lucrezia made mechanical water-beasties
                    > (fish, frogs, etc.) I wonder if the Mongfish line is in any way
                    > related to the Van Rijns ....?
                    >
                    > Blade
                  • wusemajor
                    ... from ... with ... make ... Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                      --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, arondell <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > Regarding the muses I had the impression there fame came not just
                      from
                      > there intellect but in their abilty to inspire. Obviously clanks
                      with
                      > rudamentary mental powers are quite common. Klaus for instance has
                      > numerous soldier clanks that can be given simple orders and have
                      > enough judgement to be able to handle a heavy combat situation. It
                      > follows that if he wanted to spend extra time and effort he could
                      make
                      > a clank of human level intellect and felxibility.
                      >
                      > Arondell

                      Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of
                      the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than the battle
                      clanks he makes. That isn't to say that he couldn't build one, just
                      that it would probably be more like Castle Heterodyne than the Muses.
                    • arondell
                      Sure it would be more difficult. That and Klaus s specialty seems to be geared toward other fields. The muses are famous for being...well...muses. Which if
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                        Sure it would be more difficult. That and Klaus's specialty seems to
                        be geared toward other fields.

                        The muses are famous for being...well...muses. Which if their really
                        as good at inspiring as has been implied is pretty darn impressive and
                        worthy of someone that Payne described as the greatest spark of that
                        time. Merely having a clank with human level intellect was probably
                        not considered nearly as impressive.

                        Of course given that most of the greatest sparks were destroyed by the
                        Other it might be considered impressive by current standards.

                        Arondell

                        --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, "wusemajor" <Wuse_Major@h...> wrote:

                        > Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of
                        > the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than the battle
                        > clanks he makes. That isn't to say that he couldn't build one, just
                        > that it would probably be more like Castle Heterodyne than the Muses.
                      • David "No Nickname" Crowe
                        ... If I may be cliched, it s always easier to create than to destroy, so building a creative machine would be far more difficult than a destructive one. Also
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                          On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, wusemajor wrote:

                          > Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of
                          > the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than the battle
                          > clanks he makes. That isn't to say that he couldn't build one, just
                          > that it would probably be more like Castle Heterodyne than the Muses.

                          If I may be cliched, it's always easier to create than to destroy, so
                          building a creative machine would be far more difficult than a destructive
                          one.

                          Also worth noting, even today's modern technogy can't duplicate or even
                          come close to some things in the past. Certain kinds of sword steel, and
                          notably Stradavarius violins. The artistry in their creation has not
                          been matched, and not for lack of trying.


                          --
                          David "No Nickname" Crowe jetman@... Website being moved again

                          "[He] has a better grasp of real science, but you have a better grasp of
                          comic-book science." -My Villians and Vigilantes GM, to me.
                        • Michael Telford
                          ... The Stradivarius violins have been duplicated; the secret turned out to be in the varnish.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                            On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:25 PM, David No Nickname Crowe wrote:

                            > On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, wusemajor wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >> Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of
                            >> the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than the
                            >> battle
                            >> clanks he makes. That isn't to say that he couldn't build one, just
                            >> that it would probably be more like Castle Heterodyne than the Muses.
                            >>
                            >
                            > If I may be cliched, it's always easier to create than to destroy, so
                            > building a creative machine would be far more difficult than a
                            > destructive
                            > one.
                            >
                            > Also worth noting, even today's modern technogy can't duplicate or
                            > even
                            > come close to some things in the past. Certain kinds of sword
                            > steel, and
                            > notably Stradavarius violins. The artistry in their creation has not
                            > been matched, and not for lack of trying.

                            The Stradivarius violins have been duplicated; the secret turned out
                            to be in the varnish.
                          • jsheikg
                            ... Have they been duplicated or merely analyzed? I haven t heard of a market in Stradavarius clones yet, in spite of the fame of the superior sound.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                              --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, Michael Telford <whitewings1@m...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:25 PM, David No Nickname Crowe wrote:
                              >
                              > > On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, wusemajor wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >> Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of
                              > >> the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than the
                              > >> battle
                              > >> clanks he makes. That isn't to say that he couldn't build one, just
                              > >> that it would probably be more like Castle Heterodyne than the Muses.
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > > If I may be cliched, it's always easier to create than to destroy, so
                              > > building a creative machine would be far more difficult than a
                              > > destructive
                              > > one.
                              > >
                              > > Also worth noting, even today's modern technogy can't duplicate or
                              > > even
                              > > come close to some things in the past. Certain kinds of sword
                              > > steel, and
                              > > notably Stradavarius violins. The artistry in their creation has not
                              > > been matched, and not for lack of trying.
                              >
                              > The Stradivarius violins have been duplicated; the secret turned out
                              > to be in the varnish.

                              Have they been duplicated or merely analyzed?
                              I haven't heard of a market in Stradavarius clones yet, in spite of
                              the fame of the superior sound.
                            • Michael Telford
                              ... That s a very strange thing; the Stradivarius violins have indeed be successfully duplicated, yet nobody s been able to successfully market them. I ve seen
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:39 PM, jsheikg wrote:

                                > --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, Michael Telford <whitewings1@m...>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >>
                                >> On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:25 PM, David No Nickname Crowe wrote:
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, wusemajor wrote:
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>> Yeah, but creating clanks with those abilities that are the size of
                                >>>> the muses has to be orders of magnitude more difficult than the
                                >>>> battle
                                >>>> clanks he makes. That isn't to say that he couldn't build one,
                                >>>> just
                                >>>> that it would probably be more like Castle Heterodyne than the
                                >>>> Muses.
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>
                                >>> If I may be cliched, it's always easier to create than to
                                >>> destroy, so
                                >>> building a creative machine would be far more difficult than a
                                >>> destructive
                                >>> one.
                                >>>
                                >>> Also worth noting, even today's modern technogy can't duplicate or
                                >>> even
                                >>> come close to some things in the past. Certain kinds of sword
                                >>> steel, and
                                >>> notably Stradavarius violins. The artistry in their creation has
                                >>> not
                                >>> been matched, and not for lack of trying.
                                >>>
                                >>
                                >> The Stradivarius violins have been duplicated; the secret turned out
                                >> to be in the varnish.
                                >>
                                >
                                > Have they been duplicated or merely analyzed?
                                > I haven't heard of a market in Stradavarius clones yet, in spite of
                                > the fame of the superior sound.

                                That's a very strange thing; the Stradivarius violins have indeed be
                                successfully duplicated, yet nobody's been able to successfully
                                market them. I've seen the "voice prints" for both originals and
                                duplicates myself, and the only differences are those attributable to
                                normal variance with hand-made instruments (and yes, they're very
                                clearly different from ordinary violins), yet the violins don't sell,
                                or at least not well enough to be commercially viable.
                              • John Reiher
                                ... Well, it turns out that the varnish is not the secret, most Strads were recoated in the 19th century with a new varnish.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                  On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:39 PM, jsheikg wrote:

                                  >> The Stradivarius violins have been duplicated; the secret turned out
                                  >> to be in the varnish.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > Have they been duplicated or merely analyzed?
                                  > I haven't heard of a market in Stradavarius clones yet, in spite of
                                  > the fame of the superior sound.

                                  Well, it turns out that the varnish is not the secret, most Strads
                                  were recoated in the 19th century with a new varnish.

                                  http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/4/8

                                  The current theory is that it was the Maunder Minimum that caused the
                                  trees to grow with finer ring structure that lead to the better sound
                                  quality in the Strad.

                                  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0107_040107_violin.html

                                  --
                                  ------------------------
                                  Kedamono@...
                                  http://www.ahtg.net
                                  http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnreiher/
                                  ------------------------
                                  "Another one of them new worlds.
                                  No beer, no women, no pool parlors - nothin'.
                                  Nothing to do but throw rocks at tin cans and we got to bring our own
                                  tin cans."
                                  ---- Ship's Cook, United Planets Cruiser C-57D
                                  Forbidden Planet







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Blade
                                  ... I think we re talking about four completely different things: Constructs Constructs who are programmed to be loyal to their creators Clanks Clanks which
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                    --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, arondell <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    > I'm not really sure that there is that much of a distinction between
                                    > biological constructs and mineral/metal ones in the GG universe.
                                    > Certainly we have seen evidence that the hetrodynes built control
                                    > mechanisms into the jaegers. Also Von Pinn seemed to have a built
                                    > in instinct to obey orders from people in the Mongfish family.
                                    >
                                    > Regarding the muses I had the impression there fame came not just
                                    > from there intellect but in their abilty to inspire. Obviously
                                    > clanks with rudamentary mental powers are quite common. Klaus
                                    > for instance has numerous soldier clanks that can be given simple
                                    > orders and have enough judgement to be able to handle a heavy
                                    > combat situation. It follows that if he wanted to spend extra
                                    > time and effort he could make a clank of human level intellect
                                    > and felxibility.

                                    I think we're talking about four completely different things:

                                    Constructs
                                    Constructs who are "programmed" to be loyal to their creators
                                    Clanks
                                    Clanks which are self-aware and have independent thought

                                    (Having said that, I'm not entirely sure the first catagory exists.
                                    Constructs whom we've met all seem to have some degree of loyalty to
                                    their creators.)

                                    Constructs are based upon Human design -- whether or not the construct
                                    remembers a life previous to death and reconstruction, we don't know
                                    yet. But they are reanimated amalgamations of Human parts, acting as
                                    Human and capable of passing as Human. A "predisposition to loyalty"
                                    seems to be part of their makeup (like Punch & Judy) but can be
                                    overcome by an act of will (Von Pinn stating that she will not follow
                                    orders from Agatha again, suggesting that while she reacted
                                    automatically to a Mongfish order, she could choose not to do so).

                                    Clanks are roughly humanoid-shaped devices. Yes, they can follow
                                    simple orders; we can gather that "find and identify the man who took
                                    my locket, and return here with him" is a fairly complex set of orders
                                    for a clank, and they were carried out without any subtlety nor
                                    thought. Similarly with the standing order "rescue Othar" -- a bit
                                    more scope of action, depending upon a more complex set of situations,
                                    but neither subtle nor thoughtful, just direct.

                                    Self-aware clanks like the Muses (if I may extrapolate from the
                                    example of Moxana) are a huge order of complexity above that sort of
                                    clank. They have a sense of self-preservation (they "lost themselves"
                                    when it became clear that people would tinker with them, and that
                                    tinkering would destroy them); they have emotions (Moxana's
                                    "devastation" at the loss of her sister; the fear they clearly showed
                                    when Master Payne found them in the wrecked wagon); they are capable
                                    of not only complex anaysis, but of taking a risk, and of trust
                                    (Moxana's decision, after many decades of hiding, to reveal herself to
                                    Agatha, and to trust her with repairs -- whether she had in mind
                                    repairs to herself or to Tinka is academic, at this point).

                                    As someone pointed out, clanks like Moxana blur the lines between
                                    clank and construct -- because while being clanks made of metal and
                                    clockwork, they act and react like constructs built on the Human scale
                                    of complexity and emotion. This is why I have been using the term
                                    Artificial Intelligence with regards to the Muses -- as far as I can
                                    see, the difference between a standard clank (even a sophisticated
                                    one) and the Muses is like comparing the Mars Rover to C3PO. The
                                    former follows orders and does what it was made to do very well; the
                                    latter is a person made of metal.

                                    Blade
                                  • John Reiher
                                    ... Let s see... I can have a Stradivarius that is over 300 years old and has a provenance a mile long, and is worth conservatively $30,000... Or I can buy
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                      On Sep 30, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Michael Telford wrote:

                                      >> Have they been duplicated or merely analyzed?
                                      >> I haven't heard of a market in Stradavarius clones yet, in spite of
                                      >> the fame of the superior sound.
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > That's a very strange thing; the Stradivarius violins have indeed be
                                      > successfully duplicated, yet nobody's been able to successfully
                                      > market them. I've seen the "voice prints" for both originals and
                                      > duplicates myself, and the only differences are those attributable to
                                      > normal variance with hand-made instruments (and yes, they're very
                                      > clearly different from ordinary violins), yet the violins don't sell,
                                      > or at least not well enough to be commercially viable.

                                      Let's see... I can have a Stradivarius that is over 300 years old and
                                      has a provenance a mile long, and is worth conservatively $30,000...

                                      Or I can buy this thing made by souless scientists in their labs,
                                      with their machines. A copy of the real thing.

                                      --
                                      ------------------------
                                      Kedamono@...
                                      http://www.ahtg.net
                                      http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnreiher/
                                      ------------------------
                                      "Another one of them new worlds.
                                      No beer, no women, no pool parlors - nothin'.
                                      Nothing to do but throw rocks at tin cans and we got to bring our own
                                      tin cans."
                                      ---- Ship's Cook, United Planets Cruiser C-57D
                                      Forbidden Planet







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Blade
                                      ... I suppose that depends upon whether I want to feel the history, or the music ... a difference which makes no difference is no difference, after all. If
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                        --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, John Reiher <kedamono@a...> wrote:
                                        > Let's see... I can have a Stradivarius that is over 300 years old and
                                        > has a provenance a mile long, and is worth conservatively $30,000...
                                        >
                                        > Or I can buy this thing made by souless scientists in their labs,
                                        > with their machines. A copy of the real thing.

                                        I suppose that depends upon whether I want to feel the history, or the
                                        music ... a difference which makes no difference is no difference,
                                        after all. If what I want is an excellent violin, and can't afford
                                        (conservatively) $30,000, and don't care about whether I'm playing on
                                        an historical artifact, then a good copy of the real thing sounds like
                                        a godsend.

                                        Sure, to some folks it would make a difference. But not to everyone,
                                        by any stretch.

                                        Blade
                                      • Tim Blaes
                                        ... The Nine s ability to inspire is even more evidence of some sort of Spark Force that madboys & girls tap into for inspiration, information, and power.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                          --- arondell <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                          > The muses are famous for being...well...muses.
                                          > Which if their really
                                          > as good at inspiring as has been implied is pretty
                                          > darn impressive and
                                          > worthy of someone that Payne described as the
                                          > greatest spark of that
                                          > time. Merely having a clank with human level
                                          > intellect was probably
                                          > not considered nearly as impressive.

                                          The Nine's ability to inspire is even more
                                          evidence of some sort of Spark Force that madboys &
                                          girls tap into for inspiration, information, and
                                          power. That a clank/construct can tap into this is
                                          astounding.
                                          And if anyone can come up with a better term than
                                          "Spark Force" please do so.


                                          Metaphors be with you,

                                          Tim Blaes



                                          __________________________________
                                          Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                                          http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        • John Reiher
                                          ... I ve known a couple musicians in my time, one who would not go on stage unless he had his lucky guitar pick , and another that would do a ritual with his
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                            On Sep 30, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Blade wrote:

                                            > I suppose that depends upon whether I want to feel the history, or the
                                            > music ... a difference which makes no difference is no difference,
                                            > after all. If what I want is an excellent violin, and can't afford
                                            > (conservatively) $30,000, and don't care about whether I'm playing on
                                            > an historical artifact, then a good copy of the real thing sounds like
                                            > a godsend.
                                            >
                                            > Sure, to some folks it would make a difference. But not to everyone,
                                            > by any stretch.

                                            I've known a couple musicians in my time, one who would not go on
                                            stage unless he had his "lucky guitar pick", and another that would
                                            do a ritual with his instrument before he would play it for real.
                                            They can be an odd bunch. :-)

                                            Still, it's like diamonds and artificial diamonds, one is more
                                            valuable than the other due to... Oh, forget diamonds, they are
                                            expensive because De Biers has a monopoly and keeps the price high
                                            artificially. :-)

                                            Still, the comparison is still valid, people view artificial diamonds
                                            as being "fake" even though they are diamonds. They are "fake"
                                            because they are artificially made, even though if you had a side by
                                            side sample, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference chemically.

                                            --
                                            ------------------------
                                            Kedamono@...
                                            http://www.ahtg.net
                                            http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnreiher/
                                            ------------------------
                                            "Another one of them new worlds.
                                            No beer, no women, no pool parlors - nothin'.
                                            Nothing to do but throw rocks at tin cans and we got to bring our own
                                            tin cans."
                                            ---- Ship's Cook, United Planets Cruiser C-57D
                                            Forbidden Planet







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Tim Blaes
                                            ... The last I herd anything about this, after discovering the secret of the Stradivarius they also dicovered that they improved with age, and that they
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                              --- Blade <elbereth@...> wrote:

                                              > --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, John Reiher
                                              > <kedamono@a...> wrote:
                                              > > Let's see... I can have a Stradivarius that is
                                              > over 300 years old and
                                              > > has a provenance a mile long, and is worth
                                              > conservatively $30,000...
                                              > >
                                              > > Or I can buy this thing made by souless scientists
                                              > in their labs,
                                              > > with their machines. A copy of the real thing.
                                              >
                                              > I suppose that depends upon whether I want to feel
                                              > the history, or the
                                              > music ... a difference which makes no difference is
                                              > no difference,
                                              > after all. If what I want is an excellent violin,
                                              > and can't afford
                                              > (conservatively) $30,000, and don't care about
                                              > whether I'm playing on
                                              > an historical artifact, then a good copy of the real
                                              > thing sounds like
                                              > a godsend.
                                              >
                                              > Sure, to some folks it would make a difference. But
                                              > not to everyone,
                                              > by any stretch.

                                              The last I herd anything about this, after
                                              discovering the "secret" of the Stradivarius they also
                                              dicovered that they improved with age, and that they
                                              didn't sound as good new as they do now. So even the
                                              knock-offs will have to wait a while to match the originals.

                                              Metaphors be with you,

                                              Tim Blaes



                                              __________________________________
                                              Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                                              http://mail.yahoo.com
                                            • jsheikg
                                              ... Which explains the social status of GG constructs. They can do everything a natural-born human can do and more (except perhaps procreate) but still occupy
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 30, 2005
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                                                --- In girlgenius@yahoogroups.com, John Reiher <kedamono@a...> wrote:
                                                > On Sep 30, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Blade wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > I suppose that depends upon whether I want to feel the history, or the
                                                > > music ... a difference which makes no difference is no difference,
                                                > > after all. If what I want is an excellent violin, and can't afford
                                                > > (conservatively) $30,000, and don't care about whether I'm playing on
                                                > > an historical artifact, then a good copy of the real thing sounds like
                                                > > a godsend.
                                                > >
                                                > > Sure, to some folks it would make a difference. But not to everyone,
                                                > > by any stretch.
                                                >
                                                > I've known a couple musicians in my time, one who would not go on
                                                > stage unless he had his "lucky guitar pick", and another that would
                                                > do a ritual with his instrument before he would play it for real.
                                                > They can be an odd bunch. :-)
                                                >
                                                > Still, it's like diamonds and artificial diamonds, one is more
                                                > valuable than the other due to... Oh, forget diamonds, they are
                                                > expensive because De Biers has a monopoly and keeps the price high
                                                > artificially. :-)
                                                >
                                                > Still, the comparison is still valid, people view artificial diamonds
                                                > as being "fake" even though they are diamonds. They are "fake"
                                                > because they are artificially made, even though if you had a side by
                                                > side sample, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference chemically.

                                                Which explains the social status of GG constructs. They can do
                                                everything a natural-born human can do and more (except perhaps
                                                procreate) but still occupy the status of Thing rather than Person in
                                                the eyes of the general public. This is true even if that construct's
                                                only qualification for the designation is dying and reanimation.
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