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An event database

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  • Steve Hayes
    Now that we possibly have a quorum, or something like it, I d like to ask about something that I have felt the need for for some time -- an event database.
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 9, 2006
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      Now that we possibly have a quorum, or something like it, I'd like to ask
      about something that I have felt the need for for some time -- an event
      database.

      You've all seen chronologies -- lists of events arranged in chronological
      order.

      That's easy to do with a flat-file database, or single table.

      I've done that in a text database, Inmagic, and also in another text
      database, askSam. Both of them can be set up to do it easily because they can
      sort partial dates, like "May 1864" or, in the case of Inmagic, "c 1864".

      But one can do that in a relational database program like MS-Access or
      Paradox by having a text database field, so that if the exact date is not
      known one can wrote "1864-05-00" or "1864-00-00"

      Where the flat-file become inadequate is where I want to link people to
      events, for example if I want a list of events in which John Doe
      participated. Or in which John Doe and Richard Roe participated, or in which
      John Doe participated by Richard Roe did not participate.

      That means entering as lot of names in each record, and retyping those names
      lots of times, with the possibility of making a typo, and so missing that
      name in a search.

      So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many relation
      between people and events.

      As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables - Events, People,
      and Roles.

      The Event table would have the date of the event, a short description, and a
      longer one (in a memo field), and two other memo fields -- Notes and
      Comments. One might need to have a beginning date and an ending date for some
      events, like the Second World War, or the Siege of Ladysmith.

      The People table would have basic information about a person to identify
      them. Name, date & place of birth and death, and possibly a potted biography.
      Space to enter one or more Id numbers, like the RIN in a lineage-linked
      genealogy program, could be useful.

      The Roles table would have two fields as essential - the record numbers of
      the person and events tables to link the two. But it could also have notes on
      the person's role in the event - father, mother, midwife, obstetrician (in
      the case of a birth). Driver, passenger, witness, in the case of a car
      accident. Victim, perpetrator, investigating officer in the case of a crime.
      And so on. Perhaps all those roles could be in a separate look-up table,
      which could be added to. There could also be memo fields, with description,
      notes and comments to describe the role of that person in the events.

      For additional complications, one could add Sources and Citations, which
      could be linked to any of the events described above.

      So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or if anyone
      else has felt the need for it.

      As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
      historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.

      If, say, you were writing a book on the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879, it would
      provide a way of taking notes, and then analysing the information once one
      had gathered it from various sources.

      If you were writing a biography of someone, the program could include their
      relations to family members, as any genealogy program does, but would also
      include people who are not relatives, friends, boss, colleagues at work,
      authors of books that were influential, even if the subject had never met
      them.

      Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see that it
      might be useful?

      Now I can play with data models, just. I can play with tables and see
      possible relationships between them In Paradox (for DOS) I used to be able to
      design forms and even write code, but I just can't keep up any more. So I
      have these ideas, but don't really know how to implement them.

      So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will be
      willing to bake it.


      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
    • Bob Velke
      ... The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes, tens of thousands of researchers find it useful. Bob Velke Wholly Genes Software
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 10, 2006
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        Steve Hayes said:

        >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many relation
        >between people and events.
        >
        >As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables - Events, People,
        >and Roles.
        >
        ><clip>
        >
        >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see that it
        >might be useful?

        The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes,
        tens of thousands of researchers find it useful.

        Bob Velke
        Wholly Genes Software
        www.WhollyGenes.com
      • Steve Hayes
        ... When I get a chance I ll try to look at the latest version. I didn t have much joy with earlier ones. But I think what I am looking for is something wider
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 14, 2006
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          On 10 Feb 2006 at 7:55, Bob Velke wrote:

          > Steve Hayes said:
          >
          > >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many relation
          > >between people and events.
          > >
          > >As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables - Events, People,
          > >and Roles.
          > >
          > ><clip>
          > >
          > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see that it
          > >might be useful?
          >
          > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes,
          > tens of thousands of researchers find it useful.

          When I get a chance I'll try to look at the latest version. I didn't have
          much joy with earlier ones.

          But I think what I am looking for is something wider than a lineage linked
          genealogy program -- one that will include people who aren't family at all.

          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
        • Bob Velke
          ... I think that any program which has the characteristics you described ( a relational database with a many-to-many relation between people and events ) is,
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 14, 2006
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            Steve said:

            >But I think what I am looking for is something wider than a lineage linked
            >genealogy program -- one that will include people who aren't family at all.

            I think that any program which has the characteristics you described ("a
            relational database with a many-to-many relation between people and
            events") is, by definition, not a lineage-linked program and is designed to
            support people who aren't family at all.

            Bob Velke
            Wholly Genes Software
            www.WhollyGenes.com
          • Paul Blair
            ... many-to-many relation ... Events, People, ... that it ... Hi Bob The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial version, but all I can
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 18, 2006
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              --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
              >
              > Steve Hayes said:
              >
              > >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a
              many-to-many relation
              > >between people and events.
              > >
              > >As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables -
              Events, People,
              > >and Roles.
              > >
              > ><clip>
              > >
              > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
              that it
              > >might be useful?
              >
              > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes,
              > tens of thousands of researchers find it useful.
              >
              > Bob Velke
              > Wholly Genes Software
              > www.WhollyGenes.com
              >

              Hi Bob

              The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
              version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
              know...

              Paul
            • Bob Velke
              ... I don t know what partly use some preset info means so I can t help you without some more specific information. If you haven t already reviewed the
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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                Paul said:

                >The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
                >version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
                >know...

                I don't know what "partly use some preset info" means so I can't help you
                without some more specific information.

                If you haven't already reviewed the Guided Tour
                (http://www.whollygenes.com/tmgtour.htm), however, then you should do
                that. It provides an detailed review of concepts, terminology, navigation,
                etc.

                Bob Velke
                Wholly Genes Software
                www.WhollyGenes.com
              • Steve Hayes
                ... I m also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing about
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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                  On 19 Feb 2006 at 6:37, Paul Blair wrote:

                  > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Steve Hayes said:
                  > > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                  > that it
                  > > >might be useful?
                  > >
                  > > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes, tens
                  > > of thousands of researchers find it useful.
                  > The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
                  > version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
                  > know...

                  I'm also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have
                  had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing
                  about that, as I don't think this should be a "help forum" for particular
                  programs.

                  I hope to see whether it can do what I want, though I suspect that what I'm
                  really looking for should actually be a separate program. From what I've seen
                  so far, TMG does still seem to be primarily a lineage linked genealogy
                  database. I'm not saying that disparagingly -- if it does that job well, more
                  power to it. But what I'm looking for is not primarily a program that links
                  people to people, butr rather one which links people to events.

                  --
                  Steve Hayes
                  E-mail: shayes@...
                  Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                  Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                • Steve Hayes
                  ... I just tried to get to that from within TMG, and couldn t. It seems to be a bug, as if gave my browser and address of http:// which i don t think any
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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                    On 19 Feb 2006 at 8:15, Bob Velke wrote:

                    > If you haven't already reviewed the Guided Tour
                    > (http://www.whollygenes.com/tmgtour.htm), however, then you should do
                    > that. It provides an detailed review of concepts, terminology, navigation,
                    > etc.

                    I just tried to get to that from within TMG, and couldn't. It seems to be a
                    bug, as if gave my browser and address of

                    http://\\

                    which i don't think any browser could find.

                    --
                    Steve Hayes
                    E-mail: shayes@...
                    Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                    Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                  • Paul Blair
                    I ve just posted there.... Paul
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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                      I've just posted there....

                      Paul

                      At 05:28 am 20-02-2006, you wrote:
                      >On 19 Feb 2006 at 6:37, Paul Blair wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve Hayes said:
                      > > > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                      > > that it
                      > > > >might be useful?
                      > > >
                      > > > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years
                      > and, yes, tens
                      > > > of thousands of researchers find it useful.
                      > > The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
                      > > version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
                      > > know...
                      >
                      >I'm also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have
                      >had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing
                      >about that, as I don't think this should be a "help forum" for particular
                      >programs.
                    • Heather Stovold
                      And Clooz doesn t do what you want??
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 20, 2006
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                        And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??


                         

                        database. I'm not saying that disparagingly -- if it does that job well, more
                        power to it. But what I'm looking for is not primarily a program that links
                        people to people, butr rather one which links people to events.

                      • Steve Hayes
                        ... I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could share something about their use of those programs and how well they work. I
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 20, 2006
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                          On 20 Feb 2006 at 9:59, Heather Stovold wrote:

                          > And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??

                          I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could
                          share something about their use of those programs and how well they work.

                          I downloaded a demo of Clooz, and played with it a bit, but I'd like to hear
                          from people who've used it a lot.

                          I gather there will soon be a new version, so that might be worth looking at.

                          --
                          Steve Hayes
                          E-mail: shayes@...
                          Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                        • Carol
                          A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every event that
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                            A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every event that happened in a specific place (for example, a county).  That isn’t currently included, nor is it planned for the immediate future.  It is a feature on the drawing board though.  You can produce this report for a specific person, though.  Liz is hoping to have the new version out sometime in March – the final round of beta testing is coming up soon.

                             

                            It is possible to do this (generate a report across event types based on a county) with Genota Forms, which I’m playing around with – this program has a ton of flexibility and data entry is very streamlined once I have my form templates set up.

                             

                            I’m not sure about Custodian – I’m still experimenting with it.

                             

                            Carol

                             


                            From: gensoft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gensoft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 12:25 AM
                            To: gensoft@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [gensoft] Re: An event database

                             

                            On 20 Feb 2006 at 9:59, Heather Stovold wrote:

                            > And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??

                            I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could
                            share something about their use of those programs and how well they work.

                            I downloaded a demo of Clooz, and played with it a bit, but I'd like to hear
                            from people who've used it a lot.

                            I gather there will soon be a new version, so that might be worth looking at.

                            --
                            Steve Hayes
                            E-mail: shayes@...
                               Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                            Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727



                          • Steve Hayes
                            ... Thanks very much for that. I had A Clooz demo on my computer, but upgraded the operating system and haven t reinstalled it yet. ... I haven t used Genota
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                              On 21 Feb 2006 at 6:43, Carol wrote:

                              > A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches
                              > across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every
                              > event that happened in a specific place (for example, a county). That isn't
                              > currently included, nor is it planned for the immediate future. It is a
                              > feature on the drawing board though. You can produce this report for a
                              > specific person, though. Liz is hoping to have the new version out sometime
                              > in March - the final round of beta testing is coming up soon.

                              Thanks very much for that.

                              I had A Clooz demo on my computer, but upgraded the operating system and
                              haven't reinstalled it yet.

                              > It is possible to do this (generate a report across event types based on a
                              > county) with Genota Forms, which I'm playing around with - this program has a
                              > ton of flexibility and data entry is very streamlined once I have my form
                              > templates set up.

                              I haven't used Genota forms, but i have used Genota, and when I first tried
                              it, thought it might be what I was looking for, and might become that in a
                              later version. I have not played with it enough yet, but it looks like a very
                              good genealogical note taking program for keeping track of research, but I
                              don't think it is quite there yet as an event tracker.

                              > I'm not sure about Custodian - I'm still experimenting with it.

                              I've experimented a bit, and it seems wuite useful for keeping track of
                              source documents rather than events. But I haven't played with it enough, and
                              need to look at it some more. It's pretty expensive, though.
                              --
                              Steve Hayes
                              E-mail: shayes@...
                              Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                            • Steve Hayes
                              To try to illustrate what I mean by an event based database, here is a report from a database I keep in Inmagic, with a search argument of 1853 -- events of
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                                To try to illustrate what I mean by an event based database, here is a report
                                from a database I keep in Inmagic, with a search argument of 1853 -- events
                                of that year. Inmagic is a DOS program, and reports look better in fixed font
                                rather than proportional.

                                But it is also a "flat file" database, not a relational one, which means that
                                one has to enter each person again and again for each event they are
                                associated with, which apart from making extra work, also increases the
                                danger of typing errors. In addition, one can only use one field for each
                                person, which means all information about the person has to fit into that
                                field -- I've chosen to use the name and RIN (if any), which I can then use
                                to find the person in my lineage-linked programs.

                                It is fairly useful and flexible -- I can sort by date, and Inmagic accepts
                                and interprets fuzzy dates like c1853, May 1853 etc. I can also sort by
                                place, and search by person or place, or even any combination of words within
                                the text, like "Orange w3 Sovereignty", which will find all records with the
                                word "Orange" within three words of "Sovereignty"

                                Anyway, here's the sample report for 1853:

                                Events relating to 1853 Page No 1

                                Search strategy: 06/02/21 19:35:14
                                GET ED: 1853

                                4-Jan-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                                CHARLES & FRED GREEN ARRIVED IN BLOEMFONTEIN FROM TRIP TO
                                LAKE NGAMI
                                "Charles and Fred Green, brothers of the Resident, came
                                down from the interior about the 3rd or 4th of the month.
                                They had been unfortunate in their trip, had neenm to the
                                lake and some 120 miles to the westward of it, and just
                                as they had got into the midst of the elephants the fly
                                (tsetse) got among their horses and killed some 34 horses
                                and 50 head of cattle. They only shot six or eight
                                elephants. They also lost 50 head of cattle to the Boors,
                                who took them from sechele where they had left them for
                                their return journey. Sechele, chief of the Baquainas, a
                                tribe who live some 450 miles from here, also came down
                                with the Greens to lodge a complaint against the Trans
                                Vaal Boors for having attacked him without cause, killed
                                many of his people and taken some two hundred women and
                                nearly a thousand children into slavery. A young Edwards,
                                son of a missionary of the same name, came down with him
                                as interpreter. Sechele is one of the finest blacks I
                                ever saw, has a fine open countnenance, dresses very
                                neatly and clean. Although he cannot speak English he
                                reads the Bible in his own language and is I believe a
                                good Christian. We have had great fun lately, the Greens
                                being very jolly fellows, particularly Fred Green. We
                                have had reunions of an evening at Craws', screeching and
                                howling to the masthead, and also some very good songs
                                and music. Charles Green, finding that Sechele was not
                                likely to get much done for him in the Colony, determined
                                to take him home. He accordingly opened a subscription
                                for the purpose, and very soon collected œ [blank] even
                                in this small town, as all the reports from beyond the
                                Vaal confirm us in the belief that slavery is carried on
                                openly by the Boors there."
                                People: 1. Green, Fred [140]
                                2. Green, Charles [502]
                                3. Sechele
                                4. Edwards, Samuel Howard
                                Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 45
                                2. cf Sillery 1954, "Sechele", p 116f

                                Events relating to 1853 Page No 2

                                18-Jan-1853 Cape Town

                                MRS THOMAS MORRIS BOARDS SHIP FOR WALVIS BAY
                                Hahn boarded the "Prince Edward" in Cape Town for the
                                trip to Walvis Bay. Among the passengers was "Frau Th.
                                Morris".
                                People: 1. Morris,
                                Sources: 1. Hahn Diaries, Vol III

                                12-Feb-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                                CHARLES & FRED GREEN DINE IN OFFICERS' MESS WITH ST JOHN.
                                AFTERWARDS MEET HENRY AND ARTHUR GREEN IN THE CLUB. HENRY
                                IS THE RESIDENT, ARTHUR GREEN IN THE COMMISSARIAT AND
                                FRED IS DESCRIBED AS SURVEYOR.
                                "Played one game of billiards with Charles Green, who
                                dined with me at mess. Present, Major Kyle, Captain
                                Bates, Howard and Rowland, all 45th, Cameron, Staff
                                Assistant Surgeon, and myself, the members of the mess,
                                and Charles and Fred Green and Dawson, late 45th, guest.
                                In the evening Lowen the magistrate and De Smidt of the
                                Comissariat came up. About 9 Charles Green and I
                                adjourned to the club, where we met his brothers Henry
                                Green, the Resident, and Arthur Green in the
                                Commissariat, and also Fred the surveyor. I played one
                                game with Charles Green and adjourned to my house" (St
                                John diary, p, 52). This is the last mention of Charles
                                Green in St John's diary -- perhaps he accompanied
                                Sechele back home, as St John had described earlier, or
                                perhaps went on to Cape Town, as described by Tabler
                                (1973:45).
                                People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
                                2. Green, Charles [502]
                                3. Green, Henry [480]
                                4. Green, Arthur [936]
                                5. Bates, Captain Robert
                                6. Kyle, Major Hallam d'Arcy
                                Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 52

                                Events relating to 1853 Page No 3

                                2-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                                FRED GREEN GOES ON HUNTING EXPEDITION FROM BLOEMFONTEIN
                                WITH W. ST JOHN, JOHANNES DE SMIDT & WILLIAM DAWSON.
                                Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of
                                the Royal Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's
                                farm at Tempe, where they had dinner, and on to
                                Kwaggafontein, from where they set out on a fortnight's
                                hunting expedition.
                                People: 1. Green, Fred
                                2. St John, William Jones
                                3. Dawson, William
                                4. de Smidt, Johannes
                                Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 54

                                17-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                                FRED GREEN & CO RETURN TO BLOEMFONTEIN FROM HUNTING
                                EXPEDITION
                                People: 1. Green, Fred
                                2. St John, William Jones
                                3. Dawson, William
                                4. de Smidt, Johannes
                                Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 63

                                22-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                                FRED GREEN, ST JOHN, DICK ORPEN HAVE DINNER WITH A.H.
                                BAIN
                                People: 1. Green, Fred
                                2. St John, William Jones
                                3. Bain, Andrew Hudson
                                4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham
                                Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64

                                31-May-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                                FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
                                MESS
                                Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
                                St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
                                August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
                                Bloemfontein by then.
                                People: 1. Green, Fred
                                Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79

                                Events relating to 1853 Page No 4

                                15-Jun-1853 RSA, Natal, Durban

                                BIRTH OF ELIZABETH BENINGFIELD IN DURBAN
                                People: 1. Beningfield, Elizabeth Ellington [1326]
                                Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, Sheet 110.
                                Diary of events

                                5-Jul-1853 ENG, Essex, Hutton

                                DEATH: THOMAS TIMOTHY BENINGFIELD, IN ESSEX
                                People: 1. Beningfield, Thomas Timothy [1227]
                                Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, Sheet 112.
                                Diary of Events
                                2. D'Urban Advocate, 17-Nov-1853

                                10-Jul-1853 RSA, Natal, Durban

                                BAPTISM: ELIZABETH E. BENINGFIELD
                                Ron Hickman believes the baptism register was a later
                                copy, because of the misspelling of the names of one of
                                the sponsors - Maria Elizabeth Kahts, given in the
                                register as Kaktiys.
                                People: 1. Beningfield, Elizabeth Ellington [1326]
                                Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, sheet 111.
                                Diary of events

                                --
                                Steve Hayes
                                E-mail: shayes@...
                                Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                                Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                              • Carol
                                Steve, You might try Genota Forms - they have a 15 day trial. You do have to build your own forms, although there are some that can be downloaded from the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                                  Steve,

                                   

                                  You might try Genota Forms – they have a 15 day trial.  You do have to build your own forms, although there are some that can be downloaded from the Forms Library.  I’ve run across a couple of bugs in it, but the developers have been very responsive to the error reports and have posted fixes within 24 hours (usually less) of the reports.

                                   

                                  Carol

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Steve wrote: 

                                   

                                  I haven't used Genota forms, but i have used Genota, and when I first tried
                                  it, thought it might be what I was looking for, and might become that in a
                                  later version. I have not played with it enough yet, but it looks like a very
                                  good genealogical note taking program for keeping track of research, but I
                                  don't think it is quite there yet as an event tracker.



                                • Ray Murphy
                                  ... [.....] ... [......] ... [....] ... Hello All, A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a request on soc.genealogy.computing for
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 17, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

                                    >Now that we possibly have a quorum, or something like it, I'd like
                                    >to ask about something that I have felt the need for for some time --
                                    >an event database.

                                    >You've all seen chronologies -- lists of events arranged in
                                    >chronological order.

                                    [.....]

                                    >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many
                                    >relation between people and events.

                                    [......]

                                    >So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
                                    >if anyone else has felt the need for it.

                                    >As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
                                    >historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.

                                    >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                                    >that it might be useful?

                                    [....]

                                    >So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
                                    >be willing to bake it.

                                    > --
                                    > Steve Hayes

                                    Hello All,

                                    A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
                                    request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
                                    database project which handles people's events.

                                    I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
                                    minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
                                    MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
                                    discussion and offer suggestions.

                                    My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
                                    actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
                                    processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
                                    ~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
                                    and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
                                    happen.

                                    Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
                                    following things:

                                    (1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
                                    longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
                                    module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

                                    (2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
                                    fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child; Mother-Son;
                                    Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather, Husband-Wife etc.

                                    (3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
                                    so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
                                    approximate dates.

                                    (4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
                                    particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
                                    as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
                                    fact any event at all (literally).

                                    Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
                                    above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
                                    in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
                                    'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
                                    to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
                                    Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
                                    the Events table.
                                    ------------

                                    When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
                                    already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
                                    discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
                                    whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
                                    all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
                                    capability of relational databases.

                                    Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
                                    related to ONE event, although I feel
                                    that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
                                    suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
                                    up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

                                    I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
                                    view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
                                    "event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
                                    birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
                                    that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
                                    every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
                                    wanted until immediately prior to export.

                                    An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
                                    genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
                                    a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
                                    impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
                                    own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
                                    involved.

                                    Ray
                                  • Paul Blair
                                    ... I ve not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend! ... ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn t encourage its broad use. There are other
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@...> wrote:
                                      >

                                      >
                                      > >So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
                                      > >if anyone else has felt the need for it.

                                      I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

                                      >
                                      > >As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
                                      > >historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.
                                      >
                                      > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                                      > >that it might be useful?
                                      >
                                      > [....]
                                      >
                                      > >So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
                                      > >be willing to bake it.
                                      >
                                      > > --
                                      > > Steve Hayes
                                      >
                                      > Hello All,
                                      >
                                      > A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
                                      > request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
                                      > database project which handles people's events.
                                      >
                                      > I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
                                      > minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
                                      > MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
                                      > discussion and offer suggestions.
                                      >
                                      > My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
                                      > actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
                                      > processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
                                      > ~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
                                      > and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
                                      > happen.
                                      >
                                      > Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
                                      > following things:
                                      >
                                      > (1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
                                      > longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
                                      > module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

                                      ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use. There
                                      are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic Names
                                      [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and places
                                      can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal format.

                                      There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed for
                                      (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is absolutely
                                      no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
                                      Legacy/TMG/anything else.

                                      > (2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
                                      > fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child; Mother-Son;
                                      > Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather, Husband-Wife etc.

                                      All what data is this? In this context, I guess events?

                                      >
                                      > (3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
                                      > so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
                                      > approximate dates.

                                      Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text, that
                                      allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but this
                                      requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you store
                                      accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field, they
                                      have to be "married" to derive a chronology.
                                      >
                                      > (4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
                                      > particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
                                      > as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
                                      > fact any event at all (literally).
                                      >
                                      > Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
                                      > above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
                                      > in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
                                      > 'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
                                      > to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
                                      > Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
                                      > the Events table.
                                      > ------------
                                      >
                                      > When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
                                      > already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
                                      > discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
                                      > whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
                                      > all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
                                      > capability of relational databases.

                                      Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all data
                                      "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are all
                                      constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other record
                                      (or records).
                                      >
                                      > Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
                                      > related to ONE event, although I feel
                                      > that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
                                      > suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
                                      > up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

                                      Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
                                      connections!

                                      >
                                      > I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
                                      > view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
                                      > "event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
                                      > birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
                                      > that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
                                      > every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
                                      > wanted until immediately prior to export.
                                      >
                                      > An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
                                      > genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
                                      > a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
                                      > impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
                                      > own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
                                      > involved.
                                      >
                                      > Ray

                                      The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                      This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
                                      functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
                                      for collaboration.

                                      Paul
                                      Australia




                                      >
                                    • Bob Melson
                                      ... While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        <snip>
                                        > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                        > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
                                        > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
                                        > for collaboration.
                                        >
                                        > Paul
                                        > Australia

                                        While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
                                        programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also currently
                                        suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure. This is
                                        not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
                                        structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.

                                        If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in rough form, of
                                        the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward establishing
                                        the amount of effort involved, IMO.

                                        Bob Melson
                                        Texas
                                      • Paul Blair
                                        ... currently ... This is ... rough form, of ... establishing ... Yep, that would be good. And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based,
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > <snip>
                                          > > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                          > > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
                                          > > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
                                          > > for collaboration.
                                          > >
                                          > > Paul
                                          > > Australia
                                          >
                                          > While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
                                          > programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also
                                          currently
                                          > suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure.
                                          This is
                                          > not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
                                          > structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                                          >
                                          > If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                          rough form, of
                                          > the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward
                                          establishing
                                          > the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                                          >
                                          > Bob Melson
                                          > Texas
                                          >


                                          Yep, that would be good.

                                          And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based, IIRC.

                                          Paul
                                          Australia
                                        • Ray Murphy
                                          ... [....] ... RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only about $50 (AU) if it s bought as an extra with popular programs. I suppose any
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:

                                            >--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:


                                            >>>So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program,
                                            >>>or if anyone else has felt the need for it.

                                            >I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

                                            >>>As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and
                                            >>>family historians, but to general historians, biographers and
                                            >>>others.

                                            >>>Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                                            >>>that it might be useful?

                                            >> [....]

                                            >>>So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone
                                            >>>will be willing to bake it.

                                            >>> Steve Hayes

                                            [....]

                                            >>Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
                                            >>following things:

                                            >>(1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
                                            >>longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
                                            >>module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

                                            >ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use.
                                            >There are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic
                                            >Names [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and
                                            >places can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal
                                            >format.

                                            RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only
                                            about $50 (AU) if it's bought as an extra with popular programs.
                                            I suppose any type of 'atlas' (gazetteer) could be used - including
                                            self-populating ones that are filled in on the fly as required. Users
                                            would only need to select their default atlas in a listbox, but
                                            they could also have their own special atlas that they could
                                            crank-up for those old or tiny place names in their own state which
                                            included the abbreviations that were commonly used. High precision
                                            coordinates wouldn't be needed for genealogy.

                                            It wouldn't matter what format was used by a gazetteer to input
                                            geographic coordinates - DDMMSS or DD,MM or DD (decimal) if the
                                            program knew which style the gazetteers used. In any case the
                                            genealogy program developers could easily settle on a visible (and
                                            printable) format that was most popular amongst users.

                                            >There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed
                                            >for (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is
                                            >absolutely no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
                                            >Legacy/TMG/anything else.

                                            RM: I've found in the work I'm doing that 3 fields are suitable for
                                            most places, but India really needs 4 - with the last field being
                                            "Country".
                                            Unfortunately the U.S. is out of kilter with the rest of the world
                                            in relation to place names and expects everyone to memorise their
                                            state name abbreviations. I found that it was easy enough to
                                            overcome that in a program by shifting the last "Place" (say CA or
                                            GA) back one field and then placing "U.S." in the Country field.
                                            I think that strictly speaking some American states ARE actually
                                            countries, but that's another story.

                                            >>(2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
                                            >>fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child;
                                            >>Mother-Son; Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather,
                                            >>Husband-Wife etc.

                                            >All what data is this? In this context, I guess events?

                                            RM: Yes, events mostly, but it could be used for anything at all.
                                            For example personal details or characteristics could also be
                                            entered and automatically placed with "events" (using the birth date
                                            as the artificial event date) so they could be exported. That could
                                            include family health problems and cause of death. With such a system
                                            all (recorded) cases of gout or depression etc could easily be found.

                                            >>(3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
                                            >>so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated
                                            >>from approximate dates.

                                            >Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text,
                                            >that allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but
                                            >this requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you
                                            >store accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field,
                                            >they have to be "married" to derive a chronology.

                                            RM: One date field could feed the other. The default could be real
                                            dates, but each time an "illegal date" was entered (such as Abt
                                            1926) the program could say "Press the option button to allow the
                                            insertion of an approximate date". Such a system could help mimimise
                                            errors in day-of-year (and year) for places that did not adopt the
                                            Gregorian calendar. (It took 350 years from 1582 for the whole world
                                            to accept it but many people are not aware of it). I'd imagine that
                                            in some cases genealogists are scratching their heads and wondering
                                            how a certain person could have been born in a certain year when they
                                            have alternative documentary evidence that indicates otherwise.

                                            >>(4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
                                            >>particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such
                                            >>things as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration,
                                            >>illnesses. In fact any event at all (literally).

                                            >>Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all
                                            >>the above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from
                                            >>gedcoms in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
                                            >>'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few
                                            >>minutes to create the link between people and the
                                            >>standard(genealogy)Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in
                                            >>the family tree in the Events table.
                                            >> ------------

                                            >>When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event
                                            >>database already in this group's Files section. I've also had a
                                            >>look at the discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly
                                            >>interested in the whole topic of relational databases and people's
                                            >>events, it hasn't all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't
                                            >>understand the full capability of relational databases.

                                            >Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all
                                            >data "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are
                                            >all constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other
                                            >record (or records).

                                            RM: I'm not familiar with Legacy, but it seems that genealogy
                                            programs are designed to go back only one generation when looking for
                                            anything. For example I doubt if they can bring together sets of two
                                            people who are 4 generations apart.

                                            >>Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
                                            >>related to ONE event, although I feel that Steve Hayes is right and
                                            >>that genealogy needs what he's suggesting. The easiest way to be
                                            >>certain is for all of us to dream up examples of what might (or
                                            >>might not) be needed.

                                            >Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
                                            >connections!

                                            RM: Yes, the connections are there alright for weddings, but would
                                            99% of people really have any use for an extra line of type which
                                            says "Mrs Broadbent attended Christine O'Hara's wedding 04.04.1907"?

                                            >>I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point
                                            >>of view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
                                            >>"event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of
                                            >>the birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a
                                            >>system that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes
                                            >>out to every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not
                                            >>visible or wanted until immediately prior to export.

                                            >>An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
                                            >>genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet
                                            >>with a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
                                            >>impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of
                                            >>my own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have
                                            >>been involved.

                                            >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                            >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                            >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                            >advantage for collaboration.

                                            RM: It sounds interesting, although I have no concept yet of how the
                                            program might work for ordinary people.

                                            > Paul
                                            > Australia

                                            Ray
                                          • Ray Murphy
                                            ... RM: It s a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever become standard
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@...> wrote:

                                              ><snip>
                                              >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                              >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                              >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                              >>advantage for collaboration.

                                              >>Paul
                                              >>Australia

                                              >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
                                              >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
                                              >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                                              >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
                                              >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
                                              >achieve the fine-grainedness required.

                                              >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                              >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
                                              >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.

                                              > Bob Melson
                                              > Texas

                                              RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
                                              of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
                                              become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
                                              the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                                              Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
                                              could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
                                              notable characteristics that exist in families.

                                              I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
                                              gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
                                              now for all I know.

                                              It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
                                              into lots of programs.

                                              Ray
                                            • Paul Blair
                                              ... Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way that allows
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > ><snip>
                                                > >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                                > >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                                > >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                                > >>advantage for collaboration.
                                                >
                                                > >>Paul
                                                > >>Australia
                                                >
                                                > >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
                                                > >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
                                                > >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                                                > >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
                                                > >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
                                                > >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                                                >
                                                > >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                                > >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
                                                > >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                                                >
                                                > > Bob Melson
                                                > > Texas
                                                >
                                                > RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
                                                > of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
                                                > become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
                                                > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                                                > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
                                                > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
                                                > notable characteristics that exist in families.
                                                >
                                                > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
                                                > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
                                                > now for all I know.
                                                >
                                                > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
                                                > into lots of programs.
                                                >
                                                > Ray
                                                >

                                                Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
                                                arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
                                                that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
                                                included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

                                                I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
                                                people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
                                                companies who like things the way they are....

                                                Paul
                                                Australia
                                              • Ray Murphy
                                                ... PhpGedView. ... an ... for ... it ... it ... to ... go a ... sort ... ever ... use ... that ... or ... bypass ... possible ... events ... RM: Yes, I ll
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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                                                  --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ><snip>
                                                  > > >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is
                                                  PhpGedView.
                                                  > > >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                                  > > >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite
                                                  an
                                                  > > >>advantage for collaboration.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >>Paul
                                                  > > >>Australia
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow
                                                  for
                                                  > > >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features,
                                                  it
                                                  > > >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                                                  > > >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but
                                                  it
                                                  > > >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code",
                                                  to
                                                  > > >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                                  > > >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd
                                                  go a
                                                  > > >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Bob Melson
                                                  > > > Texas
                                                  > >
                                                  > > RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what
                                                  sort
                                                  > > of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to
                                                  ever
                                                  > > become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to
                                                  use
                                                  > > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                                                  > > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and
                                                  that
                                                  > > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death
                                                  or
                                                  > > notable characteristics that exist in families.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could
                                                  bypass
                                                  > > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be
                                                  possible
                                                  > > now for all I know.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra
                                                  events"
                                                  > > into lots of programs.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ray
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
                                                  >arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
                                                  >that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
                                                  >included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

                                                  RM: Yes, I'll get a copy of Legacy soon.

                                                  >I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
                                                  >people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
                                                  >companies who like things the way they are....

                                                  RM: When it comes to generating csv files of people paired-up with
                                                  particular events, there's no need to wait for a change in the
                                                  industry that may never come. All we need is an intermediate program
                                                  which imports gedcoms and reassembles a few things including
                                                  converting useable dates into a separate column which uses the Date
                                                  format.

                                                  I started doing that a few days ago with MS Access without any
                                                  problems, but I can't figure out how to move spouses and their birth
                                                  dates over to the Events table because they are only reference
                                                  numbers. When that's done, all gedcoms can be used to extract "event"
                                                  information that might be useful for various types of research.

                                                  The tricky part might be finding a way to move ancestors and
                                                  descendants over to the "events" table.

                                                  The final output that I'm getting (suitable for infinite filtering in
                                                  a separate program) is a csv file which uses an "apostrophe s" after
                                                  a person's name and their event.

                                                  (abbreviated to fit on 1 line here)
                                                  "Hall,Ben",1942,12,12,13:20,"GMT",-0, "Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                                                  "Hall,Ben's Marriage",1963,11,10,12:00,"BST",-1,"Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                                                  "Hall,Ben",1942,12,12,13:20,"GMT",-0, "Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                                                  "Hall,Ben's Wife Jill",1944,09,09,12:00,"BST",-1,"Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10

                                                  > Paul
                                                  > Australia

                                                  Ray (also Australia)
                                                • Ray Murphy
                                                  ... [.....] [Online database PhpGedView] ... RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will no doubt join up, but I m not one of them
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 23, 2006
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                                                    --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:

                                                    > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    [.....]

                                                    [Online database PhpGedView]

                                                    >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                                    >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                                    >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                                    >advantage for collaboration.

                                                    >Paul
                                                    >Australia

                                                    RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
                                                    no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
                                                    download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(

                                                    Ray
                                                  • Bob Melson
                                                    [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] ... Ray, Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net About half way down the left margin is a link to Download ,
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                                      [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ]
                                                      > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > [.....]
                                                      >
                                                      > [Online database PhpGedView]
                                                      >
                                                      > >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                                      > >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                                      > >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                                      > >advantage for collaboration.
                                                      >
                                                      > >Paul
                                                      > >Australia
                                                      >
                                                      > RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
                                                      > no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
                                                      > download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(
                                                      >
                                                      > Ray
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      Ray,

                                                      Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net

                                                      About half way down the left margin is a link to "Download", which will
                                                      take you to another page where there are instructions on how to download
                                                      phpGedView from the sourceforge site. If that is not successful, I'll
                                                      happily send a zipped copy of the latest version to your email address - but
                                                      don't want to do that unless you agree.

                                                      Regards,
                                                      Bob Melson

                                                      --
                                                      Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
                                                      -----
                                                      "People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
                                                      hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer
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