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Re: [gensoft] An event database

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  • Steve Hayes
    ... When I get a chance I ll try to look at the latest version. I didn t have much joy with earlier ones. But I think what I am looking for is something wider
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 14, 2006
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      On 10 Feb 2006 at 7:55, Bob Velke wrote:

      > Steve Hayes said:
      >
      > >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many relation
      > >between people and events.
      > >
      > >As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables - Events, People,
      > >and Roles.
      > >
      > ><clip>
      > >
      > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see that it
      > >might be useful?
      >
      > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes,
      > tens of thousands of researchers find it useful.

      When I get a chance I'll try to look at the latest version. I didn't have
      much joy with earlier ones.

      But I think what I am looking for is something wider than a lineage linked
      genealogy program -- one that will include people who aren't family at all.

      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
    • Bob Velke
      ... I think that any program which has the characteristics you described ( a relational database with a many-to-many relation between people and events ) is,
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 14, 2006
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        Steve said:

        >But I think what I am looking for is something wider than a lineage linked
        >genealogy program -- one that will include people who aren't family at all.

        I think that any program which has the characteristics you described ("a
        relational database with a many-to-many relation between people and
        events") is, by definition, not a lineage-linked program and is designed to
        support people who aren't family at all.

        Bob Velke
        Wholly Genes Software
        www.WhollyGenes.com
      • Paul Blair
        ... many-to-many relation ... Events, People, ... that it ... Hi Bob The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial version, but all I can
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 18, 2006
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          --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steve Hayes said:
          >
          > >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a
          many-to-many relation
          > >between people and events.
          > >
          > >As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables -
          Events, People,
          > >and Roles.
          > >
          > ><clip>
          > >
          > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
          that it
          > >might be useful?
          >
          > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes,
          > tens of thousands of researchers find it useful.
          >
          > Bob Velke
          > Wholly Genes Software
          > www.WhollyGenes.com
          >

          Hi Bob

          The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
          version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
          know...

          Paul
        • Bob Velke
          ... I don t know what partly use some preset info means so I can t help you without some more specific information. If you haven t already reviewed the
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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            Paul said:

            >The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
            >version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
            >know...

            I don't know what "partly use some preset info" means so I can't help you
            without some more specific information.

            If you haven't already reviewed the Guided Tour
            (http://www.whollygenes.com/tmgtour.htm), however, then you should do
            that. It provides an detailed review of concepts, terminology, navigation,
            etc.

            Bob Velke
            Wholly Genes Software
            www.WhollyGenes.com
          • Steve Hayes
            ... I m also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing about
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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              On 19 Feb 2006 at 6:37, Paul Blair wrote:

              > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Steve Hayes said:
              > > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
              > that it
              > > >might be useful?
              > >
              > > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes, tens
              > > of thousands of researchers find it useful.
              > The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
              > version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
              > know...

              I'm also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have
              had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing
              about that, as I don't think this should be a "help forum" for particular
              programs.

              I hope to see whether it can do what I want, though I suspect that what I'm
              really looking for should actually be a separate program. From what I've seen
              so far, TMG does still seem to be primarily a lineage linked genealogy
              database. I'm not saying that disparagingly -- if it does that job well, more
              power to it. But what I'm looking for is not primarily a program that links
              people to people, butr rather one which links people to events.

              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
            • Steve Hayes
              ... I just tried to get to that from within TMG, and couldn t. It seems to be a bug, as if gave my browser and address of http:// which i don t think any
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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                On 19 Feb 2006 at 8:15, Bob Velke wrote:

                > If you haven't already reviewed the Guided Tour
                > (http://www.whollygenes.com/tmgtour.htm), however, then you should do
                > that. It provides an detailed review of concepts, terminology, navigation,
                > etc.

                I just tried to get to that from within TMG, and couldn't. It seems to be a
                bug, as if gave my browser and address of

                http://\\

                which i don't think any browser could find.

                --
                Steve Hayes
                E-mail: shayes@...
                Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
              • Paul Blair
                I ve just posted there.... Paul
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 19, 2006
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                  I've just posted there....

                  Paul

                  At 05:28 am 20-02-2006, you wrote:
                  >On 19 Feb 2006 at 6:37, Paul Blair wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve Hayes said:
                  > > > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                  > > that it
                  > > > >might be useful?
                  > > >
                  > > > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years
                  > and, yes, tens
                  > > > of thousands of researchers find it useful.
                  > > The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
                  > > version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
                  > > know...
                  >
                  >I'm also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have
                  >had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing
                  >about that, as I don't think this should be a "help forum" for particular
                  >programs.
                • Heather Stovold
                  And Clooz doesn t do what you want??
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 20, 2006
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                    And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??


                     

                    database. I'm not saying that disparagingly -- if it does that job well, more
                    power to it. But what I'm looking for is not primarily a program that links
                    people to people, butr rather one which links people to events.

                  • Steve Hayes
                    ... I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could share something about their use of those programs and how well they work. I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 20, 2006
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                      On 20 Feb 2006 at 9:59, Heather Stovold wrote:

                      > And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??

                      I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could
                      share something about their use of those programs and how well they work.

                      I downloaded a demo of Clooz, and played with it a bit, but I'd like to hear
                      from people who've used it a lot.

                      I gather there will soon be a new version, so that might be worth looking at.

                      --
                      Steve Hayes
                      E-mail: shayes@...
                      Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                    • Carol
                      A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every event that
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                        A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every event that happened in a specific place (for example, a county).  That isn’t currently included, nor is it planned for the immediate future.  It is a feature on the drawing board though.  You can produce this report for a specific person, though.  Liz is hoping to have the new version out sometime in March – the final round of beta testing is coming up soon.

                         

                        It is possible to do this (generate a report across event types based on a county) with Genota Forms, which I’m playing around with – this program has a ton of flexibility and data entry is very streamlined once I have my form templates set up.

                         

                        I’m not sure about Custodian – I’m still experimenting with it.

                         

                        Carol

                         


                        From: gensoft@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gensoft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 12:25 AM
                        To: gensoft@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [gensoft] Re: An event database

                         

                        On 20 Feb 2006 at 9:59, Heather Stovold wrote:

                        > And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??

                        I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could
                        share something about their use of those programs and how well they work.

                        I downloaded a demo of Clooz, and played with it a bit, but I'd like to hear
                        from people who've used it a lot.

                        I gather there will soon be a new version, so that might be worth looking at.

                        --
                        Steve Hayes
                        E-mail: shayes@...
                           Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                        Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727



                      • Steve Hayes
                        ... Thanks very much for that. I had A Clooz demo on my computer, but upgraded the operating system and haven t reinstalled it yet. ... I haven t used Genota
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                          On 21 Feb 2006 at 6:43, Carol wrote:

                          > A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches
                          > across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every
                          > event that happened in a specific place (for example, a county). That isn't
                          > currently included, nor is it planned for the immediate future. It is a
                          > feature on the drawing board though. You can produce this report for a
                          > specific person, though. Liz is hoping to have the new version out sometime
                          > in March - the final round of beta testing is coming up soon.

                          Thanks very much for that.

                          I had A Clooz demo on my computer, but upgraded the operating system and
                          haven't reinstalled it yet.

                          > It is possible to do this (generate a report across event types based on a
                          > county) with Genota Forms, which I'm playing around with - this program has a
                          > ton of flexibility and data entry is very streamlined once I have my form
                          > templates set up.

                          I haven't used Genota forms, but i have used Genota, and when I first tried
                          it, thought it might be what I was looking for, and might become that in a
                          later version. I have not played with it enough yet, but it looks like a very
                          good genealogical note taking program for keeping track of research, but I
                          don't think it is quite there yet as an event tracker.

                          > I'm not sure about Custodian - I'm still experimenting with it.

                          I've experimented a bit, and it seems wuite useful for keeping track of
                          source documents rather than events. But I haven't played with it enough, and
                          need to look at it some more. It's pretty expensive, though.
                          --
                          Steve Hayes
                          E-mail: shayes@...
                          Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                        • Steve Hayes
                          To try to illustrate what I mean by an event based database, here is a report from a database I keep in Inmagic, with a search argument of 1853 -- events of
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                            To try to illustrate what I mean by an event based database, here is a report
                            from a database I keep in Inmagic, with a search argument of 1853 -- events
                            of that year. Inmagic is a DOS program, and reports look better in fixed font
                            rather than proportional.

                            But it is also a "flat file" database, not a relational one, which means that
                            one has to enter each person again and again for each event they are
                            associated with, which apart from making extra work, also increases the
                            danger of typing errors. In addition, one can only use one field for each
                            person, which means all information about the person has to fit into that
                            field -- I've chosen to use the name and RIN (if any), which I can then use
                            to find the person in my lineage-linked programs.

                            It is fairly useful and flexible -- I can sort by date, and Inmagic accepts
                            and interprets fuzzy dates like c1853, May 1853 etc. I can also sort by
                            place, and search by person or place, or even any combination of words within
                            the text, like "Orange w3 Sovereignty", which will find all records with the
                            word "Orange" within three words of "Sovereignty"

                            Anyway, here's the sample report for 1853:

                            Events relating to 1853 Page No 1

                            Search strategy: 06/02/21 19:35:14
                            GET ED: 1853

                            4-Jan-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                            CHARLES & FRED GREEN ARRIVED IN BLOEMFONTEIN FROM TRIP TO
                            LAKE NGAMI
                            "Charles and Fred Green, brothers of the Resident, came
                            down from the interior about the 3rd or 4th of the month.
                            They had been unfortunate in their trip, had neenm to the
                            lake and some 120 miles to the westward of it, and just
                            as they had got into the midst of the elephants the fly
                            (tsetse) got among their horses and killed some 34 horses
                            and 50 head of cattle. They only shot six or eight
                            elephants. They also lost 50 head of cattle to the Boors,
                            who took them from sechele where they had left them for
                            their return journey. Sechele, chief of the Baquainas, a
                            tribe who live some 450 miles from here, also came down
                            with the Greens to lodge a complaint against the Trans
                            Vaal Boors for having attacked him without cause, killed
                            many of his people and taken some two hundred women and
                            nearly a thousand children into slavery. A young Edwards,
                            son of a missionary of the same name, came down with him
                            as interpreter. Sechele is one of the finest blacks I
                            ever saw, has a fine open countnenance, dresses very
                            neatly and clean. Although he cannot speak English he
                            reads the Bible in his own language and is I believe a
                            good Christian. We have had great fun lately, the Greens
                            being very jolly fellows, particularly Fred Green. We
                            have had reunions of an evening at Craws', screeching and
                            howling to the masthead, and also some very good songs
                            and music. Charles Green, finding that Sechele was not
                            likely to get much done for him in the Colony, determined
                            to take him home. He accordingly opened a subscription
                            for the purpose, and very soon collected œ [blank] even
                            in this small town, as all the reports from beyond the
                            Vaal confirm us in the belief that slavery is carried on
                            openly by the Boors there."
                            People: 1. Green, Fred [140]
                            2. Green, Charles [502]
                            3. Sechele
                            4. Edwards, Samuel Howard
                            Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 45
                            2. cf Sillery 1954, "Sechele", p 116f

                            Events relating to 1853 Page No 2

                            18-Jan-1853 Cape Town

                            MRS THOMAS MORRIS BOARDS SHIP FOR WALVIS BAY
                            Hahn boarded the "Prince Edward" in Cape Town for the
                            trip to Walvis Bay. Among the passengers was "Frau Th.
                            Morris".
                            People: 1. Morris,
                            Sources: 1. Hahn Diaries, Vol III

                            12-Feb-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                            CHARLES & FRED GREEN DINE IN OFFICERS' MESS WITH ST JOHN.
                            AFTERWARDS MEET HENRY AND ARTHUR GREEN IN THE CLUB. HENRY
                            IS THE RESIDENT, ARTHUR GREEN IN THE COMMISSARIAT AND
                            FRED IS DESCRIBED AS SURVEYOR.
                            "Played one game of billiards with Charles Green, who
                            dined with me at mess. Present, Major Kyle, Captain
                            Bates, Howard and Rowland, all 45th, Cameron, Staff
                            Assistant Surgeon, and myself, the members of the mess,
                            and Charles and Fred Green and Dawson, late 45th, guest.
                            In the evening Lowen the magistrate and De Smidt of the
                            Comissariat came up. About 9 Charles Green and I
                            adjourned to the club, where we met his brothers Henry
                            Green, the Resident, and Arthur Green in the
                            Commissariat, and also Fred the surveyor. I played one
                            game with Charles Green and adjourned to my house" (St
                            John diary, p, 52). This is the last mention of Charles
                            Green in St John's diary -- perhaps he accompanied
                            Sechele back home, as St John had described earlier, or
                            perhaps went on to Cape Town, as described by Tabler
                            (1973:45).
                            People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
                            2. Green, Charles [502]
                            3. Green, Henry [480]
                            4. Green, Arthur [936]
                            5. Bates, Captain Robert
                            6. Kyle, Major Hallam d'Arcy
                            Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 52

                            Events relating to 1853 Page No 3

                            2-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                            FRED GREEN GOES ON HUNTING EXPEDITION FROM BLOEMFONTEIN
                            WITH W. ST JOHN, JOHANNES DE SMIDT & WILLIAM DAWSON.
                            Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of
                            the Royal Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's
                            farm at Tempe, where they had dinner, and on to
                            Kwaggafontein, from where they set out on a fortnight's
                            hunting expedition.
                            People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Dawson, William
                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
                            Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 54

                            17-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                            FRED GREEN & CO RETURN TO BLOEMFONTEIN FROM HUNTING
                            EXPEDITION
                            People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Dawson, William
                            4. de Smidt, Johannes
                            Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 63

                            22-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                            FRED GREEN, ST JOHN, DICK ORPEN HAVE DINNER WITH A.H.
                            BAIN
                            People: 1. Green, Fred
                            2. St John, William Jones
                            3. Bain, Andrew Hudson
                            4. Orpen, Richard John Newenham
                            Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 64

                            31-May-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

                            FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
                            MESS
                            Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
                            St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
                            August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
                            Bloemfontein by then.
                            People: 1. Green, Fred
                            Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79

                            Events relating to 1853 Page No 4

                            15-Jun-1853 RSA, Natal, Durban

                            BIRTH OF ELIZABETH BENINGFIELD IN DURBAN
                            People: 1. Beningfield, Elizabeth Ellington [1326]
                            Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, Sheet 110.
                            Diary of events

                            5-Jul-1853 ENG, Essex, Hutton

                            DEATH: THOMAS TIMOTHY BENINGFIELD, IN ESSEX
                            People: 1. Beningfield, Thomas Timothy [1227]
                            Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, Sheet 112.
                            Diary of Events
                            2. D'Urban Advocate, 17-Nov-1853

                            10-Jul-1853 RSA, Natal, Durban

                            BAPTISM: ELIZABETH E. BENINGFIELD
                            Ron Hickman believes the baptism register was a later
                            copy, because of the misspelling of the names of one of
                            the sponsors - Maria Elizabeth Kahts, given in the
                            register as Kaktiys.
                            People: 1. Beningfield, Elizabeth Ellington [1326]
                            Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, sheet 111.
                            Diary of events

                            --
                            Steve Hayes
                            E-mail: shayes@...
                            Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
                            Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                          • Carol
                            Steve, You might try Genota Forms - they have a 15 day trial. You do have to build your own forms, although there are some that can be downloaded from the
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 21, 2006
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                              Steve,

                               

                              You might try Genota Forms – they have a 15 day trial.  You do have to build your own forms, although there are some that can be downloaded from the Forms Library.  I’ve run across a couple of bugs in it, but the developers have been very responsive to the error reports and have posted fixes within 24 hours (usually less) of the reports.

                               

                              Carol

                               

                               

                               

                              Steve wrote: 

                               

                              I haven't used Genota forms, but i have used Genota, and when I first tried
                              it, thought it might be what I was looking for, and might become that in a
                              later version. I have not played with it enough yet, but it looks like a very
                              good genealogical note taking program for keeping track of research, but I
                              don't think it is quite there yet as an event tracker.



                            • Ray Murphy
                              ... [.....] ... [......] ... [....] ... Hello All, A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a request on soc.genealogy.computing for
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 17, 2006
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                                --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:

                                >Now that we possibly have a quorum, or something like it, I'd like
                                >to ask about something that I have felt the need for for some time --
                                >an event database.

                                >You've all seen chronologies -- lists of events arranged in
                                >chronological order.

                                [.....]

                                >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many
                                >relation between people and events.

                                [......]

                                >So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
                                >if anyone else has felt the need for it.

                                >As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
                                >historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.

                                >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                                >that it might be useful?

                                [....]

                                >So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
                                >be willing to bake it.

                                > --
                                > Steve Hayes

                                Hello All,

                                A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
                                request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
                                database project which handles people's events.

                                I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
                                minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
                                MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
                                discussion and offer suggestions.

                                My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
                                actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
                                processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
                                ~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
                                and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
                                happen.

                                Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
                                following things:

                                (1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
                                longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
                                module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

                                (2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
                                fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child; Mother-Son;
                                Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather, Husband-Wife etc.

                                (3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
                                so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
                                approximate dates.

                                (4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
                                particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
                                as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
                                fact any event at all (literally).

                                Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
                                above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
                                in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
                                'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
                                to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
                                Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
                                the Events table.
                                ------------

                                When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
                                already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
                                discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
                                whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
                                all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
                                capability of relational databases.

                                Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
                                related to ONE event, although I feel
                                that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
                                suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
                                up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

                                I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
                                view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
                                "event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
                                birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
                                that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
                                every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
                                wanted until immediately prior to export.

                                An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
                                genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
                                a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
                                impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
                                own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
                                involved.

                                Ray
                              • Paul Blair
                                ... I ve not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend! ... ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn t encourage its broad use. There are other
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@...> wrote:
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > >So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
                                  > >if anyone else has felt the need for it.

                                  I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

                                  >
                                  > >As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
                                  > >historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.
                                  >
                                  > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                                  > >that it might be useful?
                                  >
                                  > [....]
                                  >
                                  > >So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
                                  > >be willing to bake it.
                                  >
                                  > > --
                                  > > Steve Hayes
                                  >
                                  > Hello All,
                                  >
                                  > A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
                                  > request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
                                  > database project which handles people's events.
                                  >
                                  > I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
                                  > minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
                                  > MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
                                  > discussion and offer suggestions.
                                  >
                                  > My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
                                  > actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
                                  > processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
                                  > ~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
                                  > and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
                                  > happen.
                                  >
                                  > Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
                                  > following things:
                                  >
                                  > (1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
                                  > longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
                                  > module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

                                  ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use. There
                                  are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic Names
                                  [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and places
                                  can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal format.

                                  There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed for
                                  (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is absolutely
                                  no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
                                  Legacy/TMG/anything else.

                                  > (2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
                                  > fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child; Mother-Son;
                                  > Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather, Husband-Wife etc.

                                  All what data is this? In this context, I guess events?

                                  >
                                  > (3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
                                  > so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
                                  > approximate dates.

                                  Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text, that
                                  allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but this
                                  requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you store
                                  accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field, they
                                  have to be "married" to derive a chronology.
                                  >
                                  > (4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
                                  > particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
                                  > as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
                                  > fact any event at all (literally).
                                  >
                                  > Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
                                  > above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
                                  > in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
                                  > 'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
                                  > to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
                                  > Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
                                  > the Events table.
                                  > ------------
                                  >
                                  > When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
                                  > already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
                                  > discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
                                  > whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
                                  > all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
                                  > capability of relational databases.

                                  Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all data
                                  "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are all
                                  constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other record
                                  (or records).
                                  >
                                  > Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
                                  > related to ONE event, although I feel
                                  > that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
                                  > suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
                                  > up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

                                  Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
                                  connections!

                                  >
                                  > I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
                                  > view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
                                  > "event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
                                  > birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
                                  > that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
                                  > every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
                                  > wanted until immediately prior to export.
                                  >
                                  > An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
                                  > genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
                                  > a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
                                  > impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
                                  > own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
                                  > involved.
                                  >
                                  > Ray

                                  The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                  This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
                                  functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
                                  for collaboration.

                                  Paul
                                  Australia




                                  >
                                • Bob Melson
                                  ... While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    <snip>
                                    > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                    > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
                                    > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
                                    > for collaboration.
                                    >
                                    > Paul
                                    > Australia

                                    While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
                                    programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also currently
                                    suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure. This is
                                    not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
                                    structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.

                                    If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in rough form, of
                                    the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward establishing
                                    the amount of effort involved, IMO.

                                    Bob Melson
                                    Texas
                                  • Paul Blair
                                    ... currently ... This is ... rough form, of ... establishing ... Yep, that would be good. And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based,
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > <snip>
                                      > > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                      > > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
                                      > > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
                                      > > for collaboration.
                                      > >
                                      > > Paul
                                      > > Australia
                                      >
                                      > While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
                                      > programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also
                                      currently
                                      > suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure.
                                      This is
                                      > not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
                                      > structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                                      >
                                      > If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                      rough form, of
                                      > the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward
                                      establishing
                                      > the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                                      >
                                      > Bob Melson
                                      > Texas
                                      >


                                      Yep, that would be good.

                                      And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based, IIRC.

                                      Paul
                                      Australia
                                    • Ray Murphy
                                      ... [....] ... RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only about $50 (AU) if it s bought as an extra with popular programs. I suppose any
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:

                                        >--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:


                                        >>>So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program,
                                        >>>or if anyone else has felt the need for it.

                                        >I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

                                        >>>As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and
                                        >>>family historians, but to general historians, biographers and
                                        >>>others.

                                        >>>Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
                                        >>>that it might be useful?

                                        >> [....]

                                        >>>So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone
                                        >>>will be willing to bake it.

                                        >>> Steve Hayes

                                        [....]

                                        >>Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
                                        >>following things:

                                        >>(1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
                                        >>longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
                                        >>module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

                                        >ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use.
                                        >There are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic
                                        >Names [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and
                                        >places can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal
                                        >format.

                                        RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only
                                        about $50 (AU) if it's bought as an extra with popular programs.
                                        I suppose any type of 'atlas' (gazetteer) could be used - including
                                        self-populating ones that are filled in on the fly as required. Users
                                        would only need to select their default atlas in a listbox, but
                                        they could also have their own special atlas that they could
                                        crank-up for those old or tiny place names in their own state which
                                        included the abbreviations that were commonly used. High precision
                                        coordinates wouldn't be needed for genealogy.

                                        It wouldn't matter what format was used by a gazetteer to input
                                        geographic coordinates - DDMMSS or DD,MM or DD (decimal) if the
                                        program knew which style the gazetteers used. In any case the
                                        genealogy program developers could easily settle on a visible (and
                                        printable) format that was most popular amongst users.

                                        >There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed
                                        >for (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is
                                        >absolutely no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
                                        >Legacy/TMG/anything else.

                                        RM: I've found in the work I'm doing that 3 fields are suitable for
                                        most places, but India really needs 4 - with the last field being
                                        "Country".
                                        Unfortunately the U.S. is out of kilter with the rest of the world
                                        in relation to place names and expects everyone to memorise their
                                        state name abbreviations. I found that it was easy enough to
                                        overcome that in a program by shifting the last "Place" (say CA or
                                        GA) back one field and then placing "U.S." in the Country field.
                                        I think that strictly speaking some American states ARE actually
                                        countries, but that's another story.

                                        >>(2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
                                        >>fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child;
                                        >>Mother-Son; Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather,
                                        >>Husband-Wife etc.

                                        >All what data is this? In this context, I guess events?

                                        RM: Yes, events mostly, but it could be used for anything at all.
                                        For example personal details or characteristics could also be
                                        entered and automatically placed with "events" (using the birth date
                                        as the artificial event date) so they could be exported. That could
                                        include family health problems and cause of death. With such a system
                                        all (recorded) cases of gout or depression etc could easily be found.

                                        >>(3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
                                        >>so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated
                                        >>from approximate dates.

                                        >Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text,
                                        >that allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but
                                        >this requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you
                                        >store accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field,
                                        >they have to be "married" to derive a chronology.

                                        RM: One date field could feed the other. The default could be real
                                        dates, but each time an "illegal date" was entered (such as Abt
                                        1926) the program could say "Press the option button to allow the
                                        insertion of an approximate date". Such a system could help mimimise
                                        errors in day-of-year (and year) for places that did not adopt the
                                        Gregorian calendar. (It took 350 years from 1582 for the whole world
                                        to accept it but many people are not aware of it). I'd imagine that
                                        in some cases genealogists are scratching their heads and wondering
                                        how a certain person could have been born in a certain year when they
                                        have alternative documentary evidence that indicates otherwise.

                                        >>(4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
                                        >>particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such
                                        >>things as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration,
                                        >>illnesses. In fact any event at all (literally).

                                        >>Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all
                                        >>the above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from
                                        >>gedcoms in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
                                        >>'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few
                                        >>minutes to create the link between people and the
                                        >>standard(genealogy)Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in
                                        >>the family tree in the Events table.
                                        >> ------------

                                        >>When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event
                                        >>database already in this group's Files section. I've also had a
                                        >>look at the discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly
                                        >>interested in the whole topic of relational databases and people's
                                        >>events, it hasn't all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't
                                        >>understand the full capability of relational databases.

                                        >Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all
                                        >data "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are
                                        >all constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other
                                        >record (or records).

                                        RM: I'm not familiar with Legacy, but it seems that genealogy
                                        programs are designed to go back only one generation when looking for
                                        anything. For example I doubt if they can bring together sets of two
                                        people who are 4 generations apart.

                                        >>Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
                                        >>related to ONE event, although I feel that Steve Hayes is right and
                                        >>that genealogy needs what he's suggesting. The easiest way to be
                                        >>certain is for all of us to dream up examples of what might (or
                                        >>might not) be needed.

                                        >Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
                                        >connections!

                                        RM: Yes, the connections are there alright for weddings, but would
                                        99% of people really have any use for an extra line of type which
                                        says "Mrs Broadbent attended Christine O'Hara's wedding 04.04.1907"?

                                        >>I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point
                                        >>of view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
                                        >>"event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of
                                        >>the birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a
                                        >>system that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes
                                        >>out to every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not
                                        >>visible or wanted until immediately prior to export.

                                        >>An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
                                        >>genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet
                                        >>with a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
                                        >>impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of
                                        >>my own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have
                                        >>been involved.

                                        >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                        >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                        >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                        >advantage for collaboration.

                                        RM: It sounds interesting, although I have no concept yet of how the
                                        program might work for ordinary people.

                                        > Paul
                                        > Australia

                                        Ray
                                      • Ray Murphy
                                        ... RM: It s a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever become standard
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@...> wrote:

                                          ><snip>
                                          >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                          >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                          >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                          >>advantage for collaboration.

                                          >>Paul
                                          >>Australia

                                          >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
                                          >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
                                          >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                                          >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
                                          >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
                                          >achieve the fine-grainedness required.

                                          >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                          >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
                                          >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.

                                          > Bob Melson
                                          > Texas

                                          RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
                                          of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
                                          become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
                                          the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                                          Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
                                          could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
                                          notable characteristics that exist in families.

                                          I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
                                          gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
                                          now for all I know.

                                          It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
                                          into lots of programs.

                                          Ray
                                        • Paul Blair
                                          ... Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way that allows
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > ><snip>
                                            > >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                            > >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                            > >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                            > >>advantage for collaboration.
                                            >
                                            > >>Paul
                                            > >>Australia
                                            >
                                            > >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
                                            > >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
                                            > >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                                            > >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
                                            > >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
                                            > >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                                            >
                                            > >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                            > >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
                                            > >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                                            >
                                            > > Bob Melson
                                            > > Texas
                                            >
                                            > RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
                                            > of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
                                            > become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
                                            > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                                            > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
                                            > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
                                            > notable characteristics that exist in families.
                                            >
                                            > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
                                            > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
                                            > now for all I know.
                                            >
                                            > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
                                            > into lots of programs.
                                            >
                                            > Ray
                                            >

                                            Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
                                            arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
                                            that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
                                            included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

                                            I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
                                            people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
                                            companies who like things the way they are....

                                            Paul
                                            Australia
                                          • Ray Murphy
                                            ... PhpGedView. ... an ... for ... it ... it ... to ... go a ... sort ... ever ... use ... that ... or ... bypass ... possible ... events ... RM: Yes, I ll
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > ><snip>
                                              > > >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is
                                              PhpGedView.
                                              > > >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                              > > >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite
                                              an
                                              > > >>advantage for collaboration.
                                              > >
                                              > > >>Paul
                                              > > >>Australia
                                              > >
                                              > > >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow
                                              for
                                              > > >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features,
                                              it
                                              > > >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                                              > > >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but
                                              it
                                              > > >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code",
                                              to
                                              > > >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                                              > >
                                              > > >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                                              > > >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd
                                              go a
                                              > > >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                                              > >
                                              > > > Bob Melson
                                              > > > Texas
                                              > >
                                              > > RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what
                                              sort
                                              > > of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to
                                              ever
                                              > > become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to
                                              use
                                              > > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                                              > > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and
                                              that
                                              > > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death
                                              or
                                              > > notable characteristics that exist in families.
                                              > >
                                              > > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could
                                              bypass
                                              > > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be
                                              possible
                                              > > now for all I know.
                                              > >
                                              > > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra
                                              events"
                                              > > into lots of programs.
                                              > >
                                              > > Ray
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
                                              >arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
                                              >that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
                                              >included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

                                              RM: Yes, I'll get a copy of Legacy soon.

                                              >I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
                                              >people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
                                              >companies who like things the way they are....

                                              RM: When it comes to generating csv files of people paired-up with
                                              particular events, there's no need to wait for a change in the
                                              industry that may never come. All we need is an intermediate program
                                              which imports gedcoms and reassembles a few things including
                                              converting useable dates into a separate column which uses the Date
                                              format.

                                              I started doing that a few days ago with MS Access without any
                                              problems, but I can't figure out how to move spouses and their birth
                                              dates over to the Events table because they are only reference
                                              numbers. When that's done, all gedcoms can be used to extract "event"
                                              information that might be useful for various types of research.

                                              The tricky part might be finding a way to move ancestors and
                                              descendants over to the "events" table.

                                              The final output that I'm getting (suitable for infinite filtering in
                                              a separate program) is a csv file which uses an "apostrophe s" after
                                              a person's name and their event.

                                              (abbreviated to fit on 1 line here)
                                              "Hall,Ben",1942,12,12,13:20,"GMT",-0, "Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                                              "Hall,Ben's Marriage",1963,11,10,12:00,"BST",-1,"Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                                              "Hall,Ben",1942,12,12,13:20,"GMT",-0, "Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                                              "Hall,Ben's Wife Jill",1944,09,09,12:00,"BST",-1,"Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10

                                              > Paul
                                              > Australia

                                              Ray (also Australia)
                                            • Ray Murphy
                                              ... [.....] [Online database PhpGedView] ... RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will no doubt join up, but I m not one of them
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 23, 2006
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                                                --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:

                                                > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                                                >
                                                [.....]

                                                [Online database PhpGedView]

                                                >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                                >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                                >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                                >advantage for collaboration.

                                                >Paul
                                                >Australia

                                                RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
                                                no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
                                                download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(

                                                Ray
                                              • Bob Melson
                                                [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] ... Ray, Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net About half way down the left margin is a link to Download ,
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                                  [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ]
                                                  > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > [.....]
                                                  >
                                                  > [Online database PhpGedView]
                                                  >
                                                  > >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                                                  > >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                                                  > >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                                                  > >advantage for collaboration.
                                                  >
                                                  > >Paul
                                                  > >Australia
                                                  >
                                                  > RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
                                                  > no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
                                                  > download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(
                                                  >
                                                  > Ray
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  Ray,

                                                  Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net

                                                  About half way down the left margin is a link to "Download", which will
                                                  take you to another page where there are instructions on how to download
                                                  phpGedView from the sourceforge site. If that is not successful, I'll
                                                  happily send a zipped copy of the latest version to your email address - but
                                                  don't want to do that unless you agree.

                                                  Regards,
                                                  Bob Melson

                                                  --
                                                  Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
                                                  -----
                                                  "People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
                                                  hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer
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