Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [gensoft] Re: Event-based software redux.

Expand Messages
  • Steve Hayes
    ... Perhaps it could be seen like that, but when I say event-based I mean that the program is designed primarily for recording events. ... I ve only just
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 9, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      On 6 Sep 2011 at 6:38, Tom wrote:

      > Is it worth pointing out that calling a genealogical program "events-based"
      > means only that the program treats events as records that can refer to many
      > people records or vice versa? It doesn't imply that events have somehow taken
      > primacy over person records. Events are simply elevated to a position where
      > they have first class status along with persons as an important record type
      > that the software supports.

      Perhaps it could be seen like that, but when I say "event-based" I mean that
      the program is designed primarily for recording events.

      > There are two ways that current programs handle events in the multi-role
      > context. Some programs (Gramps is an example) assign each event to a single
      > person, but allow that event to refer to other persons. This isn't really
      > elevating the event to first class status, as each event must ultimately
      > "belong" to a person, but it does give the advantages (no duplication of info)
      > of an independent event. And then there are two programs (don't remember which
      > they are off the top of my head) that support true multi-role events. But, of
      > course, these two programs still support persons as the ultimate and primary
      > data record type of interest.

      I've only just started trying out Gramps, and it is indeed possible to enter
      an event in the database without it's being linked to a person. I haven't yet
      worked out how you link a person to the event.

      But by "existing programs" you seem to have in mind "lineage-linked"
      programs, and what I see the need for is not a way of improving lineage-
      linked programs, but a program that does something else.


      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
      Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
      Fax: 086-548-2525
    • Thomas Wetmore
      Steve, I did assume that you were talking about the need for a genealogical program that supports events as records in their own right. Since the purpose of
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 9, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Steve,

        I did assume that you were talking about the need for a genealogical program that supports events as records in their own right. Since the purpose of genealogical programs is to record information about persons and their inter-relatintionships, I did assume that lineage-linked persons would also have to be handled by such a program. From what you say here I was wrong about your assumptions. So I agree that what I have written does not bear on your question. But if you are only interested in a program that can be used to record information about events, since role players are usually key components of events, you would need to record information about the persons playing those roles. As far as my limited gray matter can conceive things it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

        Maybe you could explain the kinds of events you are interested in. If you are recording information about the occurrences of eclipses of the moon, or the occurrences of major hurricanes in the western Atlantic, or even major battles in a war, you could do fine without person information. But my mind is definitely slanted in the direction of events in which persons played important and definable roles, and for events of that type I would probably only be recording info about them because of the persons who were involved with them.

        Tom Wetmore

        On Sep 9, 2011, at 11:39 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:

        > On 6 Sep 2011 at 6:38, Tom wrote:
        >
        > > Is it worth pointing out that calling a genealogical program "events-based"
        > > means only that the program treats events as records that can refer to many
        > > people records or vice versa? It doesn't imply that events have somehow taken
        > > primacy over person records. Events are simply elevated to a position where
        > > they have first class status along with persons as an important record type
        > > that the software supports.
        >
        > Perhaps it could be seen like that, but when I say "event-based" I mean that
        > the program is designed primarily for recording events.
        >
        > > There are two ways that current programs handle events in the multi-role
        > > context. Some programs (Gramps is an example) assign each event to a single
        > > person, but allow that event to refer to other persons. This isn't really
        > > elevating the event to first class status, as each event must ultimately
        > > "belong" to a person, but it does give the advantages (no duplication of info)
        > > of an independent event. And then there are two programs (don't remember which
        > > they are off the top of my head) that support true multi-role events. But, of
        > > course, these two programs still support persons as the ultimate and primary
        > > data record type of interest.
        >
        > I've only just started trying out Gramps, and it is indeed possible to enter
        > an event in the database without it's being linked to a person. I haven't yet
        > worked out how you link a person to the event.
        >
        > But by "existing programs" you seem to have in mind "lineage-linked"
        > programs, and what I see the need for is not a way of improving lineage-
        > linked programs, but a program that does something else.
        >
        > --
        > Steve Hayes
        > E-mail: shayes@...
        > Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
        > Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
        > Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
        > Fax: 086-548-2525
        >
        >
      • Steve Hayes
        ... Of course it is important to keep track of persons. But there are already lots of good lineage-linked genealogy programs, and we are spoilt for choice in
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 10, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          On 10 Sep 2011 at 2:16, Thomas Wetmore wrote:

          > Steve,
          >
          > I did assume that you were talking about the need for a genealogical program
          > that supports events as records in their own right. Since the purpose of
          > genealogical programs is to record information about persons and their
          > inter-relatintionships, I did assume that lineage-linked persons would also
          > have to be handled by such a program. From what you say here I was wrong about
          > your assumptions. So I agree that what I have written does not bear on your
          > question. But if you are only interested in a program that can be used to
          > record information about events, since role players are usually key components
          > of events, you would need to record information about the persons playing
          > those roles. As far as my limited gray matter can conceive things it's six of
          > one, half a dozen of the other.

          Of course it is important to keep track of persons. But there are already
          lots of good lineage-linked genealogy programs, and we are spoilt for choice
          in that regard, so we don't really need another one.

          Those programs are primarily for genealogy, for keeping track of family
          relationships and so on.

          What I have in mind is a tool for family history, and other kinds of history
          (local history, biography etc).

          Of course it would need to keep track of persons who are associated with
          events (and yes, I know Gramps lets you do that too), but what I have in mind
          is a program that would let you include six degrees of relationship if
          necessary, which would include people like boss, colleague, friend, enemy,
          customer, neighbour, person whose dog you ran over etc.

          > Maybe you could explain the kinds of events you are interested in. If you are
          > recording information about the occurrences of eclipses of the moon, or the
          > occurrences of major hurricanes in the western Atlantic, or even major battles
          > in a war, you could do fine without person information. But my mind is
          > definitely slanted in the direction of events in which persons played
          > important and definable roles, and for events of that type I would probably
          > only be recording info about them because of the persons who were involved
          > with them.

          Well, say you are writing local history of a small village.

          Of course you would want information about people, like a list of mayors or
          equivalent, shop keepers, clergy, other influential inhabitants like doctors,
          layers and so on, and then you would want to link them to discrete events
          they were involved in, planning a road, erecting or demolishing a building,
          starting or quelling a riot, establishing a library, holding a beauty pageant
          or whatever.

          On the web site for the forum I've put some documents showing the kind of
          thing I have in mind -- schematic diagrams, sample tables and so on. I've put
          them there for comment, suggestions for improvement, and keep hoping that
          some programming fundi will help me to make them work, preferably before I
          die.


          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
          Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
          Fax: 086-548-2525
        • Thomas Wetmore
          Steve, I think I now see my confusion. I want a genealogical program to handle my lineage linked conclusions and my record event evidence. I assumed you would
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 10, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Steve,

            I think I now see my confusion.

            I want a genealogical program to handle my lineage linked conclusions and my record event evidence. I assumed you would want the same. I think I was wrong. I think you want a lineage linked program to handle your person conclusions, and a separate, event-based program to hold your evidence. I simply want them together in the same program.

            Tom Wetmore

            On Sep 10, 2011, at 4:50 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:

            > Of course it is important to keep track of persons. But there are already
            > lots of good lineage-linked genealogy programs, and we are spoilt for choice
            > in that regard, so we don't really need another one.
            >
            > Those programs are primarily for genealogy, for keeping track of family
            > relationships and so on.
            >
            > What I have in mind is a tool for family history, and other kinds of history
            > (local history, biography etc).
            >
            > Of course it would need to keep track of persons who are associated with
            > events (and yes, I know Gramps lets you do that too), but what I have in mind
            > is a program that would let you include six degrees of relationship if
            > necessary, which would include people like boss, colleague, friend, enemy,
            > customer, neighbour, person whose dog you ran over etc.
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.