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RE: [gensoft] Event-based software redux.

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  • Steve Hayes
    ... Probably not much of a demand, no. Most of the people working on genealogy software seem to be trying to write yet another lineage-linked program, or else
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 4, 2011
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      On 26 May 2011 at 6:58, Sherry wrote:

      > What about The Master Genealogist (TMG)? Of course, it hasn't been updated in
      > years. No one's quite sure what's going on with it. It has been much loved by
      > those who want an event-based program although it's got quite a learning curve
      > and newbies generally leave it for something that's not so difficult to use.
      >
      > There must not be enough of a demand for event-based software.

      Probably not much of a demand, no.

      Most of the people working on genealogy software seem to be trying to write
      yet another lineage-linked program, or else produce a replacement for GEDCOM.

      I've never managed to get TMG to work, but I've finally managed to install
      Gramps, which seems similar.

      Gramps can produce a list of events, which can be listed in chronological
      order, but it doesn't seem to be possible to link them with people or places -
      - or rather, they seem to be linked too closely to people, so that they are
      repeated for every person in the database, thus being redundant.

      For example, take the baptism of A, child of B and C, sponsors D, E, and F,
      and the person who performed the ceremony G.

      If you list it as an event linked to those seven people, the same event will
      be repeated seven times in the database.

      That means the program is "person based" rather than event-based.

      In a proper event-based program you would enter the event ONCE, and then
      link people to it.

      But I admit that i haven't played enough with Gramps yet.

      Someon mentioned a program called Scrivener -- does anyone know anything
      about it?



      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
      Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
      Fax: 086-548-2525
    • Tom
      Is it worth pointing out that calling a genealogical program events-based means only that the program treats events as records that can refer to many people
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 5, 2011
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        Is it worth pointing out that calling a genealogical program "events-based"
        means only that the program treats events as records that can refer to
        many people records or vice versa? It doesn't imply that events have somehow
        taken primacy over person records. Events are simply elevated to a position
        where they have first class status along with persons as an important record
        type that the software supports.

        There are two ways that current programs handle events in the multi-role
        context. Some programs (Gramps is an example) assign each event to a single
        person, but allow that event to refer to other persons. This isn't really
        elevating the event to first class status, as each event must ultimately "belong"
        to a person, but it does give the advantages (no duplication of info) of an
        independent event. And then there are two programs (don't remember which
        they are off the top of my head) that support true multi-role events. But, of
        course, these two programs still support persons as the ultimate and primary
        data record type of interest.

        Tom Wetmore, Chief Bottle Washer, DeadEnds Software

        (Scrivener is note-taking software.)

        --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 26 May 2011 at 6:58, Sherry wrote:
        >
        > > What about The Master Genealogist (TMG)? Of course, it hasn't been updated in
        > > years. No one's quite sure what's going on with it. It has been much loved by
        > > those who want an event-based program although it's got quite a learning curve
        > > and newbies generally leave it for something that's not so difficult to use.
        > >
        > > There must not be enough of a demand for event-based software.
        >
        > Probably not much of a demand, no.
        >
        > Most of the people working on genealogy software seem to be trying to write
        > yet another lineage-linked program, or else produce a replacement for GEDCOM.
        >
        > I've never managed to get TMG to work, but I've finally managed to install
        > Gramps, which seems similar.
        >
        > Gramps can produce a list of events, which can be listed in chronological
        > order, but it doesn't seem to be possible to link them with people or places -
        > - or rather, they seem to be linked too closely to people, so that they are
        > repeated for every person in the database, thus being redundant.
        >
        > For example, take the baptism of A, child of B and C, sponsors D, E, and F,
        > and the person who performed the ceremony G.
        >
        > If you list it as an event linked to those seven people, the same event will
        > be repeated seven times in the database.
        >
        > That means the program is "person based" rather than event-based.
        >
        > In a proper event-based program you would enter the event ONCE, and then
        > link people to it.
        >
        > But I admit that i haven't played enough with Gramps yet.
        >
        > Someon mentioned a program called Scrivener -- does anyone know anything
        > about it?
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Steve Hayes
        > E-mail: shayes@...
        > Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
        > Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
        > Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
        > Fax: 086-548-2525
        >
      • Steve Hayes
        ... Perhaps it could be seen like that, but when I say event-based I mean that the program is designed primarily for recording events. ... I ve only just
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 9, 2011
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          On 6 Sep 2011 at 6:38, Tom wrote:

          > Is it worth pointing out that calling a genealogical program "events-based"
          > means only that the program treats events as records that can refer to many
          > people records or vice versa? It doesn't imply that events have somehow taken
          > primacy over person records. Events are simply elevated to a position where
          > they have first class status along with persons as an important record type
          > that the software supports.

          Perhaps it could be seen like that, but when I say "event-based" I mean that
          the program is designed primarily for recording events.

          > There are two ways that current programs handle events in the multi-role
          > context. Some programs (Gramps is an example) assign each event to a single
          > person, but allow that event to refer to other persons. This isn't really
          > elevating the event to first class status, as each event must ultimately
          > "belong" to a person, but it does give the advantages (no duplication of info)
          > of an independent event. And then there are two programs (don't remember which
          > they are off the top of my head) that support true multi-role events. But, of
          > course, these two programs still support persons as the ultimate and primary
          > data record type of interest.

          I've only just started trying out Gramps, and it is indeed possible to enter
          an event in the database without it's being linked to a person. I haven't yet
          worked out how you link a person to the event.

          But by "existing programs" you seem to have in mind "lineage-linked"
          programs, and what I see the need for is not a way of improving lineage-
          linked programs, but a program that does something else.


          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
          Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
          Fax: 086-548-2525
        • Thomas Wetmore
          Steve, I did assume that you were talking about the need for a genealogical program that supports events as records in their own right. Since the purpose of
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 9, 2011
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            Steve,

            I did assume that you were talking about the need for a genealogical program that supports events as records in their own right. Since the purpose of genealogical programs is to record information about persons and their inter-relatintionships, I did assume that lineage-linked persons would also have to be handled by such a program. From what you say here I was wrong about your assumptions. So I agree that what I have written does not bear on your question. But if you are only interested in a program that can be used to record information about events, since role players are usually key components of events, you would need to record information about the persons playing those roles. As far as my limited gray matter can conceive things it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

            Maybe you could explain the kinds of events you are interested in. If you are recording information about the occurrences of eclipses of the moon, or the occurrences of major hurricanes in the western Atlantic, or even major battles in a war, you could do fine without person information. But my mind is definitely slanted in the direction of events in which persons played important and definable roles, and for events of that type I would probably only be recording info about them because of the persons who were involved with them.

            Tom Wetmore

            On Sep 9, 2011, at 11:39 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:

            > On 6 Sep 2011 at 6:38, Tom wrote:
            >
            > > Is it worth pointing out that calling a genealogical program "events-based"
            > > means only that the program treats events as records that can refer to many
            > > people records or vice versa? It doesn't imply that events have somehow taken
            > > primacy over person records. Events are simply elevated to a position where
            > > they have first class status along with persons as an important record type
            > > that the software supports.
            >
            > Perhaps it could be seen like that, but when I say "event-based" I mean that
            > the program is designed primarily for recording events.
            >
            > > There are two ways that current programs handle events in the multi-role
            > > context. Some programs (Gramps is an example) assign each event to a single
            > > person, but allow that event to refer to other persons. This isn't really
            > > elevating the event to first class status, as each event must ultimately
            > > "belong" to a person, but it does give the advantages (no duplication of info)
            > > of an independent event. And then there are two programs (don't remember which
            > > they are off the top of my head) that support true multi-role events. But, of
            > > course, these two programs still support persons as the ultimate and primary
            > > data record type of interest.
            >
            > I've only just started trying out Gramps, and it is indeed possible to enter
            > an event in the database without it's being linked to a person. I haven't yet
            > worked out how you link a person to the event.
            >
            > But by "existing programs" you seem to have in mind "lineage-linked"
            > programs, and what I see the need for is not a way of improving lineage-
            > linked programs, but a program that does something else.
            >
            > --
            > Steve Hayes
            > E-mail: shayes@...
            > Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
            > Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
            > Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
            > Fax: 086-548-2525
            >
            >
          • Steve Hayes
            ... Of course it is important to keep track of persons. But there are already lots of good lineage-linked genealogy programs, and we are spoilt for choice in
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 10, 2011
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              On 10 Sep 2011 at 2:16, Thomas Wetmore wrote:

              > Steve,
              >
              > I did assume that you were talking about the need for a genealogical program
              > that supports events as records in their own right. Since the purpose of
              > genealogical programs is to record information about persons and their
              > inter-relatintionships, I did assume that lineage-linked persons would also
              > have to be handled by such a program. From what you say here I was wrong about
              > your assumptions. So I agree that what I have written does not bear on your
              > question. But if you are only interested in a program that can be used to
              > record information about events, since role players are usually key components
              > of events, you would need to record information about the persons playing
              > those roles. As far as my limited gray matter can conceive things it's six of
              > one, half a dozen of the other.

              Of course it is important to keep track of persons. But there are already
              lots of good lineage-linked genealogy programs, and we are spoilt for choice
              in that regard, so we don't really need another one.

              Those programs are primarily for genealogy, for keeping track of family
              relationships and so on.

              What I have in mind is a tool for family history, and other kinds of history
              (local history, biography etc).

              Of course it would need to keep track of persons who are associated with
              events (and yes, I know Gramps lets you do that too), but what I have in mind
              is a program that would let you include six degrees of relationship if
              necessary, which would include people like boss, colleague, friend, enemy,
              customer, neighbour, person whose dog you ran over etc.

              > Maybe you could explain the kinds of events you are interested in. If you are
              > recording information about the occurrences of eclipses of the moon, or the
              > occurrences of major hurricanes in the western Atlantic, or even major battles
              > in a war, you could do fine without person information. But my mind is
              > definitely slanted in the direction of events in which persons played
              > important and definable roles, and for events of that type I would probably
              > only be recording info about them because of the persons who were involved
              > with them.

              Well, say you are writing local history of a small village.

              Of course you would want information about people, like a list of mayors or
              equivalent, shop keepers, clergy, other influential inhabitants like doctors,
              layers and so on, and then you would want to link them to discrete events
              they were involved in, planning a road, erecting or demolishing a building,
              starting or quelling a riot, establishing a library, holding a beauty pageant
              or whatever.

              On the web site for the forum I've put some documents showing the kind of
              thing I have in mind -- schematic diagrams, sample tables and so on. I've put
              them there for comment, suggestions for improvement, and keep hoping that
              some programming fundi will help me to make them work, preferably before I
              die.


              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
              Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
              Fax: 086-548-2525
            • Thomas Wetmore
              Steve, I think I now see my confusion. I want a genealogical program to handle my lineage linked conclusions and my record event evidence. I assumed you would
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 10, 2011
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                Steve,

                I think I now see my confusion.

                I want a genealogical program to handle my lineage linked conclusions and my record event evidence. I assumed you would want the same. I think I was wrong. I think you want a lineage linked program to handle your person conclusions, and a separate, event-based program to hold your evidence. I simply want them together in the same program.

                Tom Wetmore

                On Sep 10, 2011, at 4:50 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:

                > Of course it is important to keep track of persons. But there are already
                > lots of good lineage-linked genealogy programs, and we are spoilt for choice
                > in that regard, so we don't really need another one.
                >
                > Those programs are primarily for genealogy, for keeping track of family
                > relationships and so on.
                >
                > What I have in mind is a tool for family history, and other kinds of history
                > (local history, biography etc).
                >
                > Of course it would need to keep track of persons who are associated with
                > events (and yes, I know Gramps lets you do that too), but what I have in mind
                > is a program that would let you include six degrees of relationship if
                > necessary, which would include people like boss, colleague, friend, enemy,
                > customer, neighbour, person whose dog you ran over etc.
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