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Re: An event database

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  • Paul Blair
    ... I ve not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend! ... ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn t encourage its broad use. There are other
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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      --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@...> wrote:
      >

      >
      > >So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
      > >if anyone else has felt the need for it.

      I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

      >
      > >As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
      > >historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.
      >
      > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
      > >that it might be useful?
      >
      > [....]
      >
      > >So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
      > >be willing to bake it.
      >
      > > --
      > > Steve Hayes
      >
      > Hello All,
      >
      > A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
      > request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
      > database project which handles people's events.
      >
      > I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
      > minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
      > MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
      > discussion and offer suggestions.
      >
      > My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
      > actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
      > processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
      > ~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
      > and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
      > happen.
      >
      > Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
      > following things:
      >
      > (1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
      > longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
      > module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

      ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use. There
      are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic Names
      [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and places
      can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal format.

      There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed for
      (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is absolutely
      no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
      Legacy/TMG/anything else.

      > (2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
      > fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child; Mother-Son;
      > Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather, Husband-Wife etc.

      All what data is this? In this context, I guess events?

      >
      > (3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
      > so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
      > approximate dates.

      Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text, that
      allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but this
      requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you store
      accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field, they
      have to be "married" to derive a chronology.
      >
      > (4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
      > particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
      > as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
      > fact any event at all (literally).
      >
      > Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
      > above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
      > in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
      > 'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
      > to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
      > Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
      > the Events table.
      > ------------
      >
      > When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
      > already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
      > discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
      > whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
      > all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
      > capability of relational databases.

      Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all data
      "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are all
      constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other record
      (or records).
      >
      > Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
      > related to ONE event, although I feel
      > that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
      > suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
      > up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

      Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
      connections!

      >
      > I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
      > view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
      > "event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
      > birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
      > that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
      > every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
      > wanted until immediately prior to export.
      >
      > An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
      > genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
      > a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
      > impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
      > own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
      > involved.
      >
      > Ray

      The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
      This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
      functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
      for collaboration.

      Paul
      Australia




      >
    • Bob Melson
      ... While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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        <snip>
        > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
        > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
        > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
        > for collaboration.
        >
        > Paul
        > Australia

        While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
        programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also currently
        suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure. This is
        not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
        structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.

        If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in rough form, of
        the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward establishing
        the amount of effort involved, IMO.

        Bob Melson
        Texas
      • Paul Blair
        ... currently ... This is ... rough form, of ... establishing ... Yep, that would be good. And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based,
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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          --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@...> wrote:
          >
          > <snip>
          > > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
          > > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
          > > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
          > > for collaboration.
          > >
          > > Paul
          > > Australia
          >
          > While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
          > programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also
          currently
          > suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure.
          This is
          > not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
          > structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.
          >
          > If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
          rough form, of
          > the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward
          establishing
          > the amount of effort involved, IMO.
          >
          > Bob Melson
          > Texas
          >


          Yep, that would be good.

          And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based, IIRC.

          Paul
          Australia
        • Ray Murphy
          ... [....] ... RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only about $50 (AU) if it s bought as an extra with popular programs. I suppose any
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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            --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:

            >--- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:


            >>>So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program,
            >>>or if anyone else has felt the need for it.

            >I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

            >>>As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and
            >>>family historians, but to general historians, biographers and
            >>>others.

            >>>Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
            >>>that it might be useful?

            >> [....]

            >>>So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone
            >>>will be willing to bake it.

            >>> Steve Hayes

            [....]

            >>Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
            >>following things:

            >>(1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
            >>longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
            >>module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

            >ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use.
            >There are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic
            >Names [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and
            >places can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal
            >format.

            RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only
            about $50 (AU) if it's bought as an extra with popular programs.
            I suppose any type of 'atlas' (gazetteer) could be used - including
            self-populating ones that are filled in on the fly as required. Users
            would only need to select their default atlas in a listbox, but
            they could also have their own special atlas that they could
            crank-up for those old or tiny place names in their own state which
            included the abbreviations that were commonly used. High precision
            coordinates wouldn't be needed for genealogy.

            It wouldn't matter what format was used by a gazetteer to input
            geographic coordinates - DDMMSS or DD,MM or DD (decimal) if the
            program knew which style the gazetteers used. In any case the
            genealogy program developers could easily settle on a visible (and
            printable) format that was most popular amongst users.

            >There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed
            >for (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is
            >absolutely no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
            >Legacy/TMG/anything else.

            RM: I've found in the work I'm doing that 3 fields are suitable for
            most places, but India really needs 4 - with the last field being
            "Country".
            Unfortunately the U.S. is out of kilter with the rest of the world
            in relation to place names and expects everyone to memorise their
            state name abbreviations. I found that it was easy enough to
            overcome that in a program by shifting the last "Place" (say CA or
            GA) back one field and then placing "U.S." in the Country field.
            I think that strictly speaking some American states ARE actually
            countries, but that's another story.

            >>(2) Allows the retrieval and export (in csv format) all data that
            >>fits relationship category pairs such as Mother-Child;
            >>Mother-Son; Father-Daughter; Person-Great Grandfather,
            >>Husband-Wife etc.

            >All what data is this? In this context, I guess events?

            RM: Yes, events mostly, but it could be used for anything at all.
            For example personal details or characteristics could also be
            entered and automatically placed with "events" (using the birth date
            as the artificial event date) so they could be exported. That could
            include family health problems and cause of death. With such a system
            all (recorded) cases of gout or depression etc could easily be found.

            >>(3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
            >>so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated
            >>from approximate dates.

            >Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text,
            >that allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but
            >this requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you
            >store accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field,
            >they have to be "married" to derive a chronology.

            RM: One date field could feed the other. The default could be real
            dates, but each time an "illegal date" was entered (such as Abt
            1926) the program could say "Press the option button to allow the
            insertion of an approximate date". Such a system could help mimimise
            errors in day-of-year (and year) for places that did not adopt the
            Gregorian calendar. (It took 350 years from 1582 for the whole world
            to accept it but many people are not aware of it). I'd imagine that
            in some cases genealogists are scratching their heads and wondering
            how a certain person could have been born in a certain year when they
            have alternative documentary evidence that indicates otherwise.

            >>(4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
            >>particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such
            >>things as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration,
            >>illnesses. In fact any event at all (literally).

            >>Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all
            >>the above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from
            >>gedcoms in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
            >>'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few
            >>minutes to create the link between people and the
            >>standard(genealogy)Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in
            >>the family tree in the Events table.
            >> ------------

            >>When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event
            >>database already in this group's Files section. I've also had a
            >>look at the discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly
            >>interested in the whole topic of relational databases and people's
            >>events, it hasn't all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't
            >>understand the full capability of relational databases.

            >Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all
            >data "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are
            >all constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other
            >record (or records).

            RM: I'm not familiar with Legacy, but it seems that genealogy
            programs are designed to go back only one generation when looking for
            anything. For example I doubt if they can bring together sets of two
            people who are 4 generations apart.

            >>Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
            >>related to ONE event, although I feel that Steve Hayes is right and
            >>that genealogy needs what he's suggesting. The easiest way to be
            >>certain is for all of us to dream up examples of what might (or
            >>might not) be needed.

            >Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
            >connections!

            RM: Yes, the connections are there alright for weddings, but would
            99% of people really have any use for an extra line of type which
            says "Mrs Broadbent attended Christine O'Hara's wedding 04.04.1907"?

            >>I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point
            >>of view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
            >>"event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of
            >>the birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a
            >>system that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes
            >>out to every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not
            >>visible or wanted until immediately prior to export.

            >>An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
            >>genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet
            >>with a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
            >>impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of
            >>my own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have
            >>been involved.

            >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
            >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
            >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
            >advantage for collaboration.

            RM: It sounds interesting, although I have no concept yet of how the
            program might work for ordinary people.

            > Paul
            > Australia

            Ray
          • Ray Murphy
            ... RM: It s a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever become standard
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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              --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@...> wrote:

              ><snip>
              >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
              >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
              >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
              >>advantage for collaboration.

              >>Paul
              >>Australia

              >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
              >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
              >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
              >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
              >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
              >achieve the fine-grainedness required.

              >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
              >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
              >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.

              > Bob Melson
              > Texas

              RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
              of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
              become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
              the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
              Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
              could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
              notable characteristics that exist in families.

              I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
              gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
              now for all I know.

              It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
              into lots of programs.

              Ray
            • Paul Blair
              ... Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way that allows
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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                --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
                >
                > ><snip>
                > >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                > >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                > >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                > >>advantage for collaboration.
                >
                > >>Paul
                > >>Australia
                >
                > >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
                > >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
                > >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                > >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
                > >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
                > >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                >
                > >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                > >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
                > >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                >
                > > Bob Melson
                > > Texas
                >
                > RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
                > of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
                > become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
                > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
                > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
                > notable characteristics that exist in families.
                >
                > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
                > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
                > now for all I know.
                >
                > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
                > into lots of programs.
                >
                > Ray
                >

                Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
                arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
                that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
                included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

                I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
                people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
                companies who like things the way they are....

                Paul
                Australia
              • Ray Murphy
                ... PhpGedView. ... an ... for ... it ... it ... to ... go a ... sort ... ever ... use ... that ... or ... bypass ... possible ... events ... RM: Yes, I ll
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 18, 2006
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                  --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > ><snip>
                  > > >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is
                  PhpGedView.
                  > > >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                  > > >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite
                  an
                  > > >>advantage for collaboration.
                  > >
                  > > >>Paul
                  > > >>Australia
                  > >
                  > > >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow
                  for
                  > > >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features,
                  it
                  > > >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
                  > > >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but
                  it
                  > > >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code",
                  to
                  > > >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
                  > >
                  > > >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
                  > > >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd
                  go a
                  > > >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
                  > >
                  > > > Bob Melson
                  > > > Texas
                  > >
                  > > RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what
                  sort
                  > > of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to
                  ever
                  > > become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to
                  use
                  > > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
                  > > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and
                  that
                  > > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death
                  or
                  > > notable characteristics that exist in families.
                  > >
                  > > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could
                  bypass
                  > > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be
                  possible
                  > > now for all I know.
                  > >
                  > > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra
                  events"
                  > > into lots of programs.
                  > >
                  > > Ray
                  > >
                  >
                  >Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
                  >arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
                  >that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
                  >included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

                  RM: Yes, I'll get a copy of Legacy soon.

                  >I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
                  >people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
                  >companies who like things the way they are....

                  RM: When it comes to generating csv files of people paired-up with
                  particular events, there's no need to wait for a change in the
                  industry that may never come. All we need is an intermediate program
                  which imports gedcoms and reassembles a few things including
                  converting useable dates into a separate column which uses the Date
                  format.

                  I started doing that a few days ago with MS Access without any
                  problems, but I can't figure out how to move spouses and their birth
                  dates over to the Events table because they are only reference
                  numbers. When that's done, all gedcoms can be used to extract "event"
                  information that might be useful for various types of research.

                  The tricky part might be finding a way to move ancestors and
                  descendants over to the "events" table.

                  The final output that I'm getting (suitable for infinite filtering in
                  a separate program) is a csv file which uses an "apostrophe s" after
                  a person's name and their event.

                  (abbreviated to fit on 1 line here)
                  "Hall,Ben",1942,12,12,13:20,"GMT",-0, "Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                  "Hall,Ben's Marriage",1963,11,10,12:00,"BST",-1,"Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                  "Hall,Ben",1942,12,12,13:20,"GMT",-0, "Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10
                  "Hall,Ben's Wife Jill",1944,09,09,12:00,"BST",-1,"Lon,Eng",51N00,00W10

                  > Paul
                  > Australia

                  Ray (also Australia)
                • Ray Murphy
                  ... [.....] [Online database PhpGedView] ... RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will no doubt join up, but I m not one of them
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 23, 2006
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                    --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:

                    > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                    >
                    [.....]

                    [Online database PhpGedView]

                    >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                    >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                    >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                    >advantage for collaboration.

                    >Paul
                    >Australia

                    RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
                    no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
                    download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(

                    Ray
                  • Bob Melson
                    [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] ... Ray, Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net About half way down the left margin is a link to Download ,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 24, 2006
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                      [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ]
                      > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Blair" <pblair30@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > [.....]
                      >
                      > [Online database PhpGedView]
                      >
                      > >The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
                      > >This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
                      > >software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
                      > >advantage for collaboration.
                      >
                      > >Paul
                      > >Australia
                      >
                      > RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
                      > no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
                      > download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(
                      >
                      > Ray
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Ray,

                      Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net

                      About half way down the left margin is a link to "Download", which will
                      take you to another page where there are instructions on how to download
                      phpGedView from the sourceforge site. If that is not successful, I'll
                      happily send a zipped copy of the latest version to your email address - but
                      don't want to do that unless you agree.

                      Regards,
                      Bob Melson

                      --
                      Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
                      -----
                      "People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
                      hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer
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