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Re: [genpcncfir] Cemetery's ownership

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  • Carol Singh
    Dear Marcia, You should be able to discover the ownership from land records. There should be a deed. What you will probably look for is the property address on
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 23 5:18 PM
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      Dear Marcia,
      You should be able to discover the ownership from
      land records. There should be a deed.
      What you will probably look for is the property
      address on which the cemetery is located. Then check
      the courthouse in the jurisdiction where the property
      is located and look up the property address. That
      should get you your owner.
      From the Registrar of Deeds at the courthouse
      having jurisdiction, you should be able to find out
      exactly what are the New Jersey laws regarding access
      to information on cemetery records.
      The local funeral directors might also help you if
      their records show who is buried in the cemetery in
      which you are interested.
      For example, I asked Wilkerson's in Greenville, but
      this younger generation did not have the information.
      Instead, they suggested I simply walk through the
      cemetery [Greenwood].
      By chance I ran across information telling me that
      some of my Braxton kin who had died before I was born
      had been re-located to Pinewood because the cemetery
      in which they had been buried was being emptied to
      make room for the widening of a highway.
      Some of the relatives that you cannot locate may
      have been moved to other cemeteries because of
      development or land sales or whatever.
      If you can locate the Death Certificates, which
      should be available at the area courthouses, you may
      find what you are seeking. Additionally, I suggest
      land records if all else fails because here you might
      learn if a cemetery has been re-located because of
      change of ownership.
      Later, Carol

      --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
      wrote:

      > Hi John,
      > This is an interesting idea.
      > I've been searching the Internet. How exactly do I
      > find out the cemetery's ownership?
      >
      > While searching, I found a image for a mayoral
      > proclamation made in 2000 containing his phone
      > number; so, I called. The man answering the mayor's
      > office's phone said the cemetery is privately owned.
      >
      >
      > Wishing to maximize value for my call, I asked
      > other questions. He was unfamiliar with laws
      > governing privacy rights for the dead. He suggested
      > obits or death certificate. I already acquired all
      > NJ's death certificates [1846-1940] for my
      > relatives. I don't think I found any for this
      > generation, but I will check them again. He
      > suggested seeking a genealogist.
      >
      > For now, I can check if the Newberry Library has
      > the newspaper on microfilm, which I saw at the NJ
      > library.
      >
      > Thanks for the suggestion,
      > Marcia
      >
      > PS Nutz! I asked about the wrong cemetery. I asked
      > about my grandfather's cemetery, that I already knew
      > was privately owned - as the employees told me when
      > I was there and they were sharing everything.
      > Mistake on database, back to the files.
      >
      >
      > JGrimes227@... wrote:
      > My guess is that the only way to deal with
      > this guy is to learn what the ownership of this
      > cemetery is. If it is publicly owned, go see the
      > mayor and raise hell, but don't tell him you don't
      > live there. If you have a relative in the area use
      > their address.
      >
      >
      >
      > .
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Got a little couch potato?
      > Check out fun summer activities for kids.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >




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    • Carol Singh
      Dear Marcia, I am with this researcher. I do think that honey works better than vinegar. The only worry I can see you having in trying to gain access over this
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 23 5:30 PM
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        Dear Marcia,
        I am with this researcher. I do think that honey
        works better than vinegar. The only worry I can see
        you having in trying to gain access over this keeper's
        dead body is his bringing a trespass action against
        you if you hang around without his permission.
        However, in order for him to do that, he has to
        know your name and he has to leave the cemetery to
        file the action in court. There's your chance!
        Another consolation is that the poor soul has to
        sleep sometime, and I doubt he's sleeping on a
        tombstone, but you never know. I could mention some
        cases.
        Like this researcher, I too think it would be most
        helpful to look up persons in the area bearing your
        relatives' surname in hopes that these descendants
        will come to your assistance. If this fails, yes, I
        would check with the clerk of the court to find out my
        rights to this information.
        Additionally, I doubt that you are the only person
        interested in kin buried in that cemetery. Therefore,
        you might check local libraries to see if their are
        cemetery books for any of the cemeteries in which you
        are interested. Certainly, too, there are genealogical
        groups in that area of New Jersey, and these could
        also give you some suggestions. Finally, in any state,
        the librarian of the State Library should know what is
        available on cemeteries in New Jersey.
        If you would like, I can check the Library of
        Virginia. It has long been a repository of information
        from other states, and it also has census records from
        many other states.
        The trip wouldn't cost me a dime, and I will be
        glad to send you copies of anything I find.
        Later, Carol
        --- JGrimes227@... wrote:

        > I would think about the only way to find out who
        > "owns" the cemetery is to
        > go to the courthouse and research the land records.
        > That will tell you who is
        > currently owning it (no doubt the farmer or what
        > have you that is working the
        > land or holds deed to the property). But that is
        > not all the info you will
        > need because you also want to know what the line of
        > ownership was so you may
        > be able to find a relative of a person who owned
        > the land and was planted
        > there, or planted family members there!! Then, I
        > would guess, you could then
        > make up some nonsense/fictious genealogy that would
        > make you a relative and
        > could get you on the land, get any and or all the
        > names of the deceased, then
        > find a REAL relative - but only if you wanted to
        > push some heavy duty
        > actionable case to put a cease and desist order
        > against the farmer tearing up the
        > grave site. Nobody that owns the land now is going
        > to know squat about genealogy
        > and just scaring the pants of the farmer about what
        > you will be doing at the
        > courthouse vis-a-vis action against him/her for
        > tearing up the cemetery
        > would be enough to get him to mend his ways. If he
        > is real smart and nasty, or
        > course, that may be just enough to get him to plow
        > the whole thing under and
        > make you prove something was there. Photos and a
        > GPS location could prove
        > your case as often will a USCGS Topo map which will
        > often show a graveyard (and
        > just as often not).
        >
        > Talking nice and sweet to the farmer might also work
        > wonders. These
        > cemeteries don't take up much room usually, and not
        > much of a pain to plow around
        > them. As you know, keeping up cemeteries is hard
        > work and weeds and trees are
        > persistent and will not let one rest as they have a
        > tendency to grow large if
        > someone doesn't do the job every year. That takes
        > cooperation from folks
        > who no doubt consider you a bit odd for your
        > interest in dead people. LOL
        >
        > Good luck - sure would be interested to be kept
        > informed of your adventures
        > in this matter.
        >
        >
        >
        > ************************************** Get a sneak
        > peek of the all-new AOL at
        > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >




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      • Marcia McLawhorn
        Dear John and Carol, I appreciate your input. You have been most generous in your time. Many people on the list may be able to use the information you
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 24 1:05 PM
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          Dear John and Carol,
          I appreciate your input. You have been most generous in your time. Many people on the list may be able to use the information you provided. I too may need it for these great-great-grandparents if they are not in this cemetery, but buried on private land or my NC research.

          I feel as I may have misled you.
          1) This is a good size cemetery, not someones backyard or farm. Using aerial photos, it appears to be about 2/3 the size of Westview Cemetery in Kinston. It's a business - like a big Walmart store. This man works here full time all year. He supervises a staff; I've seen at least three others doing the lawn work mowing & trimming around tombstones.

          2) The manager is not preventing me from access to the cemetery. I just can not find out from him, if he has burial cards for other people with the same [soundex wise] name, other than those in my great-grandfather and his brother's plots.
          When I've been at the cemetery, it has been too hot and sometimes raining. So, I've only spent about nine hours searching there.

          You all are great. I hope someone may know the answer to my original questions.
          DO THE DEAD HAVE PRIVACY RIGHTS?
          I think the answer to this is that a dead person's name, birth date and death date is public information. Why else could Social Security Death Index be allowed to be on-line. However a living person's name may also be on the card, perhaps it is their privacy he is protecting. If so, he is confused as to what I want to know.

          IS THERE A NJ LAW TO STATE MY RIGHTS TO SEE NAMES, DOB, DOD or info to find their tombstones? If so, I would like to print it. That way, I can show the man if I need to.

          My impression from others is that he is on a power trip.

          In talking it out, I've come up with other ideas on how to attempt this.
          Thank you,
          Marcia



          ---------------------------------
          Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
          Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JGrimes227@aol.com
          WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS CEMETERY AND THE ADDRESS . There are Graveyard listings on the web - it would be a long shot that this particular cemetery would
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 24 2:34 PM
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            WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS CEMETERY AND THE "ADDRESS". There are Graveyard
            listings on the web - it would be a long shot that this particular cemetery
            would be listed, but lots of stuff are solved with long shots. Does the
            "manager" drink "Jack Daniels?" or have a hankering for a nice pound cake?? Just
            mention what a physical hardship it is to walk through the cemetery looking
            for names that may or may not be there - would be happy for you to let me go
            through those names on the index cards and I could fix you up with something to
            ease your day - or even a couple of gift certificates for Outback - then if
            he doesn't cooperate - well you get to have a nice evening at Outback for
            yourself. lol.

            Also, as in NC, there is usually a digital copy of the State Code or
            whatever NJ calls it. That is where I got the excerpts for some of the cemetery
            info I have on the Pitt County site. I can't say it is much fun plowing through
            those things but I did find the information I was looking for.

            John Grimes



            ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carol Singh
            Dear Marcia, In Virginia, at least, the dead have no privacy rights. I ll run to the library next door as we have both the federal and state law codes here and
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 24 3:11 PM
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              Dear Marcia,
              In Virginia, at least, the dead have no privacy
              rights. I'll run to the library next door as we have
              both the federal and state law codes here and see if
              the federal law states the same. As I recall, federal
              law also does not recognize the privacy rights of the
              dead.
              Shortly, Carol
              --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
              wrote:

              > Dear John and Carol,
              > I appreciate your input. You have been most
              > generous in your time. Many people on the list may
              > be able to use the information you provided. I too
              > may need it for these great-great-grandparents if
              > they are not in this cemetery, but buried on private
              > land or my NC research.
              >
              > I feel as I may have misled you.
              > 1) This is a good size cemetery, not someones
              > backyard or farm. Using aerial photos, it appears to
              > be about 2/3 the size of Westview Cemetery in
              > Kinston. It's a business - like a big Walmart store.
              > This man works here full time all year. He
              > supervises a staff; I've seen at least three others
              > doing the lawn work mowing & trimming around
              > tombstones.
              >
              > 2) The manager is not preventing me from access to
              > the cemetery. I just can not find out from him, if
              > he has burial cards for other people with the same
              > [soundex wise] name, other than those in my
              > great-grandfather and his brother's plots.
              > When I've been at the cemetery, it has been too
              > hot and sometimes raining. So, I've only spent about
              > nine hours searching there.
              >
              > You all are great. I hope someone may know the
              > answer to my original questions.
              > DO THE DEAD HAVE PRIVACY RIGHTS?
              > I think the answer to this is that a dead person's
              > name, birth date and death date is public
              > information. Why else could Social Security Death
              > Index be allowed to be on-line. However a living
              > person's name may also be on the card, perhaps it is
              > their privacy he is protecting. If so, he is
              > confused as to what I want to know.
              >
              > IS THERE A NJ LAW TO STATE MY RIGHTS TO SEE NAMES,
              > DOB, DOD or info to find their tombstones? If so, I
              > would like to print it. That way, I can show the man
              > if I need to.
              >
              > My impression from others is that he is on a power
              > trip.
              >
              > In talking it out, I've come up with other ideas
              > on how to attempt this.
              > Thank you,
              > Marcia
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! -
              > their life, your story.
              > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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            • Carol Singh
              Dear Marcia, Virginia law states regarding privately owned cemeteries that family, genealogical researchers, etc. shall have the right to enter the cemeteries
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 24 3:59 PM
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                Dear Marcia,
                Virginia law states regarding privately owned
                cemeteries that family, genealogical researchers, etc.
                shall have the right to enter the cemeteries after
                notification to the owner. If the owner denies entry
                during "reasonable" hours, the person desiring entry
                has the right to bring action in circuit court where
                the court will itself set the hours if these are in
                dispute.
                The Federal Constitution has no guarantee of
                privacy. This is implied in the Ninth and Fourteenth
                Amendments to the Constitution.
                In Roe v. Wade, abortion was legalized on the
                grounds that privacy implies the presence of a person.
                For legal purposes, the unborn is not a person.
                Therefore, I would argue, logically if not legally,
                that the deceased is not a person either.
                In any case Constitutional cases involving
                Fourteenth Amendment issues have dealt with matters
                such as abortion and birth control.
                Ninth Amendment cases have dealth with issues like
                gender discrimination, racial discrimination, etc. but
                not with access to vital records.
                These I would think would be primarily under state
                jurisdiction.
                I'll go online and see what I learn about New
                Jersey law.
                Later, Carol
                --- Carol Singh <csinghworthington@...> wrote:

                > Dear Marcia,
                > In Virginia, at least, the dead have no privacy
                > rights. I'll run to the library next door as we have
                > both the federal and state law codes here and see if
                > the federal law states the same. As I recall,
                > federal
                > law also does not recognize the privacy rights of
                > the
                > dead.
                > Shortly, Carol
                > --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > Dear John and Carol,
                > > I appreciate your input. You have been most
                > > generous in your time. Many people on the list may
                > > be able to use the information you provided. I too
                > > may need it for these great-great-grandparents if
                > > they are not in this cemetery, but buried on
                > private
                > > land or my NC research.
                > >
                > > I feel as I may have misled you.
                > > 1) This is a good size cemetery, not someones
                > > backyard or farm. Using aerial photos, it appears
                > to
                > > be about 2/3 the size of Westview Cemetery in
                > > Kinston. It's a business - like a big Walmart
                > store.
                > > This man works here full time all year. He
                > > supervises a staff; I've seen at least three
                > others
                > > doing the lawn work mowing & trimming around
                > > tombstones.
                > >
                > > 2) The manager is not preventing me from access
                > to
                > > the cemetery. I just can not find out from him, if
                > > he has burial cards for other people with the same
                > > [soundex wise] name, other than those in my
                > > great-grandfather and his brother's plots.
                > > When I've been at the cemetery, it has been too
                > > hot and sometimes raining. So, I've only spent
                > about
                > > nine hours searching there.
                > >
                > > You all are great. I hope someone may know the
                > > answer to my original questions.
                > > DO THE DEAD HAVE PRIVACY RIGHTS?
                > > I think the answer to this is that a dead
                > person's
                > > name, birth date and death date is public
                > > information. Why else could Social Security Death
                > > Index be allowed to be on-line. However a living
                > > person's name may also be on the card, perhaps it
                > is
                > > their privacy he is protecting. If so, he is
                > > confused as to what I want to know.
                > >
                > > IS THERE A NJ LAW TO STATE MY RIGHTS TO SEE
                > NAMES,
                > > DOB, DOD or info to find their tombstones? If so,
                > I
                > > would like to print it. That way, I can show the
                > man
                > > if I need to.
                > >
                > > My impression from others is that he is on a
                > power
                > > trip.
                > >
                > > In talking it out, I've come up with other ideas
                > > on how to attempt this.
                > > Thank you,
                > > Marcia
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! -
                > > their life, your story.
                > > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
                > Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
                >




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              • Carol Singh
                Dear Marcia, Regardless of federal law, though, New Jersey law has two statutes that address your question of cemetery access. One provides that a descendant
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 24 4:55 PM
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                  Dear Marcia,
                  Regardless of federal law, though, New Jersey law
                  has two statutes that address your question of
                  cemetery access.
                  One provides that a descendant may, with the
                  property owner's consent, enter someone else's land to
                  "discover, restore, maintain or visit a private grave
                  or abandoned cemetery." The other allows descendants
                  to petition the clerk of court to allow access to the
                  cemetery.
                  Two newspaper articles deal with a case in Catawba
                  County, New Jersey. The property belongs to Gary
                  Dellinger, a busines owner from Denver. He has owned
                  the land for more than 15 years, and his cattle have
                  the run of the cemetery.
                  Jeffrey Thomas and Glenn Gilleland, a family with
                  relatives in New Jersey, Georgia, and North
                  Carolina--sounds like us--are seeking legal action to
                  gain access to the cemetery where their ancestors are
                  buried.
                  Jeffrey Thomas of New Jersey has, like you, made
                  repeated attempts to visit the cemetery but has been
                  denied access. Thomas has contacted relatives in
                  Georgia who are gathering signatures for an attorney
                  to file an action to force Dellinger to allow them
                  access to the cemetery. In addition, Glen Gilleland is
                  holding a family reunion in New Jersey of his
                  relatives from North Carolina. At the reunion less
                  than a mile from the cemetery, they gathered
                  signatures for their petition to force Dellinger to
                  allow them access to the cemetery.
                  Another way to access information on your New
                  Jersey kin is through the online county database for
                  New Jersey. For limited access there is no charge.
                  Counties listed are Atlantic, Bergen, Burlington,
                  Camden, Cape May, Cumberland, Essex,
                  Gloucester,Hudson, Hunterdon, Mercer, Middlesex,
                  Monmouth, Morris, Ocean, Passaic, Salem, Somerset,
                  Sussex, Union, and Warren.
                  The web address is
                  www.searchsystems.net/list.php?nid=173 The site is
                  59k
                  I do hope that this information leads to your
                  finding out what you want to know about your kin.
                  Later, Carol


                  --- Carol Singh <csinghworthington@...> wrote:

                  > Dear Marcia,
                  > Virginia law states regarding privately owned
                  > cemeteries that family, genealogical researchers,
                  > etc.
                  > shall have the right to enter the cemeteries after
                  > notification to the owner. If the owner denies entry
                  > during "reasonable" hours, the person desiring entry
                  > has the right to bring action in circuit court where
                  > the court will itself set the hours if these are in
                  > dispute.
                  > The Federal Constitution has no guarantee of
                  > privacy. This is implied in the Ninth and Fourteenth
                  > Amendments to the Constitution.
                  > In Roe v. Wade, abortion was legalized on the
                  > grounds that privacy implies the presence of a
                  > person.
                  > For legal purposes, the unborn is not a person.
                  > Therefore, I would argue, logically if not
                  > legally,
                  > that the deceased is not a person either.
                  > In any case Constitutional cases involving
                  > Fourteenth Amendment issues have dealt with matters
                  > such as abortion and birth control.
                  > Ninth Amendment cases have dealth with issues
                  > like
                  > gender discrimination, racial discrimination, etc.
                  > but
                  > not with access to vital records.
                  > These I would think would be primarily under
                  > state
                  > jurisdiction.
                  > I'll go online and see what I learn about New
                  > Jersey law.
                  > Later, Carol
                  > --- Carol Singh <csinghworthington@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dear Marcia,
                  > > In Virginia, at least, the dead have no privacy
                  > > rights. I'll run to the library next door as we
                  > have
                  > > both the federal and state law codes here and see
                  > if
                  > > the federal law states the same. As I recall,
                  > > federal
                  > > law also does not recognize the privacy rights of
                  > > the
                  > > dead.
                  > > Shortly, Carol
                  > > --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Dear John and Carol,
                  > > > I appreciate your input. You have been most
                  > > > generous in your time. Many people on the list
                  > may
                  > > > be able to use the information you provided. I
                  > too
                  > > > may need it for these great-great-grandparents
                  > if
                  > > > they are not in this cemetery, but buried on
                  > > private
                  > > > land or my NC research.
                  > > >
                  > > > I feel as I may have misled you.
                  > > > 1) This is a good size cemetery, not someones
                  > > > backyard or farm. Using aerial photos, it
                  > appears
                  > > to
                  > > > be about 2/3 the size of Westview Cemetery in
                  > > > Kinston. It's a business - like a big Walmart
                  > > store.
                  > > > This man works here full time all year. He
                  > > > supervises a staff; I've seen at least three
                  > > others
                  > > > doing the lawn work mowing & trimming around
                  > > > tombstones.
                  > > >
                  > > > 2) The manager is not preventing me from
                  > access
                  > > to
                  > > > the cemetery. I just can not find out from him,
                  > if
                  > > > he has burial cards for other people with the
                  > same
                  > > > [soundex wise] name, other than those in my
                  > > > great-grandfather and his brother's plots.
                  > > > When I've been at the cemetery, it has been
                  > too
                  > > > hot and sometimes raining. So, I've only spent
                  > > about
                  > > > nine hours searching there.
                  > > >
                  > > > You all are great. I hope someone may know the
                  > > > answer to my original questions.
                  > > > DO THE DEAD HAVE PRIVACY RIGHTS?
                  > > > I think the answer to this is that a dead
                  > > person's
                  > > > name, birth date and death date is public
                  > > > information. Why else could Social Security
                  > Death
                  > > > Index be allowed to be on-line. However a living
                  > > > person's name may also be on the card, perhaps
                  > it
                  > > is
                  > > > their privacy he is protecting. If so, he is
                  > > > confused as to what I want to know.
                  > > >
                  > > > IS THERE A NJ LAW TO STATE MY RIGHTS TO SEE
                  > > NAMES,
                  > > > DOB, DOD or info to find their tombstones? If
                  > so,
                  > > I
                  > > > would like to print it. That way, I can show the
                  > > man
                  > > > if I need to.
                  > > >
                  > > > My impression from others is that he is on a
                  > > power
                  > > > trip.
                  > > >
                  > > > In talking it out, I've come up with other
                  > ideas
                  > > > on how to attempt this.
                  > > > Thank you,
                  > > > Marcia
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! -
                  > > > their life, your story.
                  > > > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > > > removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo!
                  > Small
                  > > Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                  > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
                  > >
                  >
                  >
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