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Re: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth

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  • Carol Singh
    Dear Group, I ve just read an article on the paternity of Abraham Lincoln from the web. I found it by doing a search at http://www.Yahoo.com and searching
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 8, 2003
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      Dear Group, I've just read an article on the paternity
      of Abraham Lincoln from the web. I found it by doing a
      search at http://www.Yahoo.com and searching "Abraham
      Lincoln's paternity." There on the first page was
      reference to the article by Ed Steers, "historian and
      Lincoln author," giving a rebuttal to the argument
      that his father was Abraham Enloe of Rutherford
      County, North Carolina. One problem college professors
      face is the pressure to publish. The best way to get
      recognition is to write about a controversial topic.
      Lincoln's paternity fits the bill. However,I am not
      saying that such motives influenced the book under
      discussion, only that whatever one writes on
      historical and genealogical subjects should be
      carefully researched and that even under the best of
      precautions, errors will creep in. I'd never heard of
      serious doubts being raised about Lincoln's paternity
      until now, so that shows my own
      knowledge deficit on the subject. The discussion drew
      my attention and interest, so I decided to check it
      out and report back what I learned if it might be of
      interest to our group. On a more personal note, quite
      a few people over the years said that my Uncle Mark
      looked like Abraham Lincoln, so learning that he might
      have been a Tarheel spiked my interest--perhaps Enloe
      might have been related to one or another of the
      families in our group. All his life, though, my uncle
      denied it. Instead, he claimed kinship to Ichabod
      Crane--he of the long arms and legs and hero of
      Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow."
      Later, Carol
      --- marcia_mclawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
      wrote:
      > To Nula,
      >
      > Your emails keep bouncing back to me. On 12/08/03,
      > I found at Trib
      > website after searching for "North Carolina"
      >
      > Item compiled from Tribune news services
      > Published December 7, 2003
      >
      > Book argues Lincoln born out of wedlock
      >
      > HICKORY, NORTH CAROLINA -- Investigating a topic
      > that has been taboo
      > for years, two North Carolina researchers believe
      > President Abraham
      > Lincoln may have been the illegitimate son of a
      > North Carolinian
      > named Abraham Enloe.
      >
      > In their book "The Tarheel Lincoln," released
      > earlier this year,
      > Catawba Valley Community College history professor
      > Richard Eller and
      > retired schoolteacher Jerry Goodnight research
      > decades-old claims
      > that the 16th president was born in Rutherford
      > County, about 60 miles
      > west of Charlotte.
      > Traditional claims that Lincoln was born Feb. 12,
      > 1809, in Hardin
      > County, Ky., are based on a statement written by
      > Lincoln a few months
      > before he was nominated to be president.
      >
      > Eller and Enloe base their argument on Lincoln's
      > North Carolina
      > origins on a physical resemblance between Lincoln
      > and Enloe, which
      > the authors noted by comparing photographs of the
      > tall, lanky men.
      >
      > Copyright ゥ 2003, Chicago Tribune
      >
      >
      > (Note error: 'Eller and Enlow' in last paragraph
      > should be 'Eller and
      > Goodnight' - the authors. Enlow lived in 1800's. -
      > Marcia).
      >
      >
      > The article does not indicate a strong case, so I
      > used Google to
      > research good, olde Abe - see this sight search
      > critera was "Abraham
      > Lincoln's mother" selected:
      >
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6552/lincoln.htm
      >
      > Marcia
      >
      ______________________________________________________________
      > >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:53:29 EST
      > >Subject: Abraham Lincoln
      >
      > >Marcia,
      > >
      > >I have had an interest in Abraham Lincoln's
      > heritage for some time.
      > >Were you able to copy the article and would it be
      > possible for you
      > >to send it to me. I went to the Tribune page but
      > was unable to get
      > >any results. Probably beyond my abilities on the
      > computer.
      > >
      > >Your help would be appreciated.
      > >
      > >Nula Tingleff
      >
      >
      >


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    • NulaT@aol.com
      Dear Marcia, I have no idea why my emails would bounce. That is a question I need to ask AOL. However one of yours came through before this one about the
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 8, 2003
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        Dear Marcia,

        I have no idea why my emails would bounce. That is a question I need to ask
        AOL. However one of yours came through before this one about the Trib
        article.

        Thanks so much for the URL for the Hanks and Lincoln families. That will be
        interesting reading.

        Thanks again,

        Nula


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • NulaT@aol.com
        Hello Marcia, I have no idea why my emails would bounce.  That is a question I need to ask AOL.  However one of yours came through before this one about the
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 8, 2003
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          Hello Marcia,

          I have no idea why my emails would bounce.  That is a question I need to ask
          AOL.  However one of yours came through before this one about the Trib
          article.

          Thanks so much for the URL for the Hanks and Lincoln families.  That will be
          interesting reading.

          Nula



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Carol Singh
          Dear Marcia and group, I loved the photographic evidence. I m reminded of the Maury Povich show, which has become a replication almost of Jerry Springer. Many
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 9, 2003
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            Dear Marcia and group, I loved the photographic
            evidence. I'm reminded of the Maury Povich show, which
            has become a replication almost of Jerry Springer.
            Many of the women are trying to prove their babies'
            paternity using the justification that the baby "looks
            just like" the man they think is the father, while the
            men are saying the babies look nothing like them. Of
            course the DNA results continue to prove that looks
            fail the test more often than not. I'm reminded, too,
            of all the rage about this and that look-alike
            contests. Hey, maybe one of us could pass for Queen
            Elizabeth--we're too young I think to claim title to
            being the Russian princess Anatasia. Besides we'd have
            a hard time making any money off the Russian title,
            but we might come into some change if we landed the
            British title. Later, Carol
            --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
            wrote:
            > Carol,
            >
            > You nailed it on the head! The article indicated
            > that these researchers decided Abe's parentage by
            > comparing photographs.
            >
            > WOW! In today's world of DNA testing, someone's
            > going to prove parentage by comparing 150 year-old
            > photographs. (Photography was just available in
            > 1836).
            >
            > If Eller and Enloe statements were true, then
            > Lincoln's mother, Nancy Hanks, was fooling around on
            > her husband. The apparently well researched
            > genealogical site I mentioned has Abe Lincoln as a
            > middle child.
            >
            > Children of Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks are:
            >
            > i. Sarah Lincoln, born February 10, 1807 in
            > Elizabethtown, Hardin County, KY.
            > ii. Abraham Lincoln, born February 12, 1809 in
            > family home, Sinking Spring Farm, near Hodgenville,
            > Hardin Co (now Larue), KY.
            > iii. Thomas Lincoln, born 1811 in Nolin Creek,
            > Washington Co or possibly Hardin Co, KY.
            >
            >
            > Of note - on FamilySearch I found these records of
            > interest:
            >
            > Children of Abraham "Abram" ENLOE and Nancy HANKS
            > are: Abraham ENLOE born12 FEB 1806 in Puzzle Creek,
            > , Rutherford, NC.No dates or locations for the
            > parents.
            > Marriage of Abraham ENLOE (c1770 NC) to Sally
            > EDGERTON (c1775 NC) 9 Jan 1795 in Rutherford Co, NC.
            > Evidently both died after 1870.
            >
            > No Enloe's are in 1880 Census Rutherford County, NC
            >
            > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
            > * *
            >
            > I thought the article was interesting to all of us
            > hard- researching individuals. Maybe we should just
            > swap photos?
            >
            > Marcia
            >
            >
            >
            > Carol Singh <csinghworthington@...> wrote:
            > Dear Group, I've just read an article on the
            > paternity
            > of Abraham Lincoln from the web. I found it by doing
            > a
            > search at http://www.Yahoo.com and searching
            > "Abraham
            > Lincoln's paternity." There on the first page was
            > reference to the article by Ed Steers, "historian
            > and
            > Lincoln author," giving a rebuttal to the argument
            > that his father was Abraham Enloe of Rutherford
            > County, North Carolina. One problem college
            > professors
            > face is the pressure to publish. The best way to get
            > recognition is to write about a controversial topic.
            > Lincoln's paternity fits the bill. However,I am not
            > saying that such motives influenced the book under
            > discussion, only that whatever one writes on
            > historical and genealogical subjects should be
            > carefully researched and that even under the best of
            > precautions, errors will creep in. I'd never heard
            > of
            > serious doubts being raised about Lincoln's
            > paternity
            > until now, so that shows my own
            > knowledge deficit on the subject. The discussion
            > drew
            > my attention and interest, so I decided to check it
            > out and report back what I learned if it might be of
            > interest to our group. On a more personal note,
            > quite
            > a few people over the years said that my Uncle Mark
            > looked like Abraham Lincoln, so learning that he
            > might
            > have been a Tarheel spiked my interest--perhaps
            > Enloe
            > might have been related to one or another of the
            > families in our group. All his life, though, my
            > uncle
            > denied it. Instead, he claimed kinship to Ichabod
            > Crane--he of the long arms and legs and hero of
            > Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow."
            > Later, Carol
            > --- marcia_mclawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
            > wrote:
            > > To Nula,
            > >
            > > Your emails keep bouncing back to me. On
            > 12/08/03,
            > > I found at Trib
            > > website after searching for "North Carolina"
            > >
            > > Item compiled from Tribune news services
            > > Published December 7, 2003
            > >
            > > Book argues Lincoln born out of
            > wedlock
            > >
            > > HICKORY, NORTH CAROLINA -- Investigating a topic
            > > that has been taboo
            > > for years, two North Carolina researchers believe
            > > President Abraham
            > > Lincoln may have been the illegitimate son of a
            > > North Carolinian
            > > named Abraham Enloe.
            > >
            > > In their book "The Tarheel Lincoln," released
            > > earlier this year,
            > > Catawba Valley Community College history professor
            > > Richard Eller and
            > > retired schoolteacher Jerry Goodnight research
            > > decades-old claims
            > > that the 16th president was born in Rutherford
            > > County, about 60 miles
            > > west of Charlotte.
            > > Traditional claims that Lincoln was born Feb. 12,
            > > 1809, in Hardin
            > > County, Ky., are based on a statement written by
            > > Lincoln a few months
            > > before he was nominated to be president.
            > >
            > > Eller and Enloe base their argument on Lincoln's
            > > North Carolina
            > > origins on a physical resemblance between Lincoln
            > > and Enloe, which
            > > the authors noted by comparing photographs of the
            > > tall, lanky men.
            > >
            > > Copyright � 2003, Chicago Tribune
            > >
            > >
            > > (Note error: 'Eller and Enlow' in last paragraph
            > > should be 'Eller and
            > > Goodnight' - the authors. Enlow lived in 1800's. -
            > > Marcia).
            > >
            > >
            > > The article does not indicate a strong case, so I
            > > used Google to
            > > research good, olde Abe - see this sight search
            > > critera was "Abraham
            > > Lincoln's mother" selected:
            > >
            >
            http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6552/lincoln.htm
            > >
            > > Marcia
            > >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________
            > > >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:53:29 EST
            > > >Subject: Abraham Lincoln
            > >
            > > >Marcia,
            > > >
            > > >I have had an interest in Abraham Lincoln's
            > > heritage for some time.
            > > >Were you able to copy the article and would it be
            > > possible for you
            > > >to send it to me. I went to the Tribune page but
            > > was unable to get
            > > >any results. Probably beyond my abilities on the
            > > computer.
            > > >
            > > >Your help would be appreciated.
            > > >
            > > >Nula Tingleff
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
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            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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            > Pitt County Historical Society:
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            > detail instructions:
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            >
            >
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            === message truncated ===


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          • Rhet Wilkinson
            This is not a new idea. I have heard for YEARS that there is a debate as to exactly where he was born etc. Rhet ... From: marcia_mclawhorn To:
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 9, 2003
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              This is not a new idea. I have heard for YEARS that there is a debate as to exactly where he was born etc. Rhet
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: marcia_mclawhorn
              To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:00 PM
              Subject: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth


              Today, the "Chicago Tribune" (page 24) reports that Richard Eller, a
              Catawba Valley Community College history Professor, and Jerry
              Goodnight, a retired schoolteacher, wrote a book "The Tarheel
              Lincoln," which was released this year. The article states that the
              book is the result of research of the claim that the 16th president
              was born in Rutherford County, NC; an illegitimate son of a North
              Carolinian named Abraham Enloe. This dispite the fact that tradition
              has his birth on Feb. 12 1809 in Hardin County, KY.

              The "Trib" states that Eller and Goodnight thought there are phyical
              resemblance between Lincoln and Enloe determined by comparing
              photographs of the tall lanky men.



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              Submit your family for publication FREE in VOLUME II CHRONICALS earmarked for 2004/2005. Link here for detail instructions:
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Evelyn Hendricks
              When I was in school in the dark ages--over sixty years ago-we were taught that Abraham Lincoln was illegitimate and for that reason his supposed father always
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 9, 2003
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                When I was in school in the dark ages--over sixty years ago-we were taught
                that Abraham Lincoln was illegitimate and for that reason his supposed
                father always wanted to live in isolated areas. At that time I believe,
                Abe's mother was supposed to have been a waitress in a tavern and the father
                was one of the customers. I doubt it is true, but that was the story then.
                Evelyn


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Rhet Wilkinson" <rhet@...>
                To: <genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:09 AM
                Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth


                > This is not a new idea. I have heard for YEARS that there is a debate as
                to exactly where he was born etc. Rhet
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: marcia_mclawhorn
                > To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:00 PM
                > Subject: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth
                >
                >
                > Today, the "Chicago Tribune" (page 24) reports that Richard Eller, a
                > Catawba Valley Community College history Professor, and Jerry
                > Goodnight, a retired schoolteacher, wrote a book "The Tarheel
                > Lincoln," which was released this year. The article states that the
                > book is the result of research of the claim that the 16th president
                > was born in Rutherford County, NC; an illegitimate son of a North
                > Carolinian named Abraham Enloe. This dispite the fact that tradition
                > has his birth on Feb. 12 1809 in Hardin County, KY.
                >
                > The "Trib" states that Eller and Goodnight thought there are phyical
                > resemblance between Lincoln and Enloe determined by comparing
                > photographs of the tall lanky men.
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Pitt County Historical Society:
                http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                >
                > Submit your family for publication FREE in VOLUME II CHRONICALS
                earmarked for 2004/2005. Link here for detail instructions:
                > http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/VolumeIIChronicles.htm
                >
                > RePrint of 1982 Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form, limited supply:
                http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
                >
                > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources:
                http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
                >
                > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic
                group if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and
                all Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                > Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Pitt County Historical Society:
                http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                >
                > Submit your family for publication FREE in VOLUME II CHRONICALS earmarked
                for 2004/2005. Link here for detail instructions:
                > http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/VolumeIIChronicles.htm
                >
                > RePrint of 1982 Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form, limited supply:
                http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
                >
                > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources:
                http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
                >
                > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic group
                if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all
                Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                > Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Carol Singh
                Dear Evelyn, The article I referred to from researching the Yahoo site mentioned that there were about ten women named Nancy Hanks who were close in age to the
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 9, 2003
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                  Dear Evelyn, The article I referred to from
                  researching the Yahoo site mentioned that there were
                  about ten women named Nancy Hanks who were close in
                  age to the mother of Abraham Lincoln. Additionally,
                  the older sister of Nancy Hanks, according to the
                  author (Steers) of the article on Yahoo, did have an
                  illegitimate son. Since record keeping was not at the
                  level it is today and since DNA testing was unknown,
                  it is not surprising that a controversy should arise.
                  When I was in school myself, I was taught that Abraham
                  Lincoln's father was Thomas Lincoln and that the
                  family lived in remote areas because the father made
                  his living primarily through hunting (fur trading) and
                  that additionally any meat that was not needed by the
                  family he sold to add to the family's income. In
                  another class, the teacher noted that Thomas Lincoln
                  was a loner who often went on long hunting trips--the
                  more so following the death of Nancy--from which he
                  did not return for days. According to this teacher,
                  the Lincoln children were on their own during the
                  absence of their father. Later, after the marriage of
                  Thomas to his second wife, the children welcomed her
                  because now there was an adult always with them and
                  they felt more like a family again rather than like
                  orphans. Whatever the case, I doubt that anyone can
                  deny the hardship a child experiences after losing a
                  parent--whether through death as was common in
                  Lincoln's day or through divorce as is common in our
                  own day. Perhaps Lincoln was a better person for
                  having had the childhood he did. As for Thomas
                  Lincoln, as with the parents of so many people who
                  later became famous, one always wonders how much of
                  what we have been taught is true, how much is fantasy,
                  and how much is conjecture. I guess, too, that many of
                  us might say the same of ancestors we ourselves never
                  knew. The important think is that we remember them and
                  try to think kindly of them in spite of the
                  circumstances of their lives and their human failings.
                  Later, Carol
                  --- Evelyn Hendricks <rebh@...> wrote:
                  > When I was in school in the dark ages--over sixty
                  > years ago-we were taught
                  > that Abraham Lincoln was illegitimate and for that
                  > reason his supposed
                  > father always wanted to live in isolated areas. At
                  > that time I believe,
                  > Abe's mother was supposed to have been a waitress in
                  > a tavern and the father
                  > was one of the customers. I doubt it is true, but
                  > that was the story then.
                  > Evelyn
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Rhet Wilkinson" <rhet@...>
                  > To: <genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:09 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth
                  >
                  >
                  > > This is not a new idea. I have heard for YEARS
                  > that there is a debate as
                  > to exactly where he was born etc. Rhet
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: marcia_mclawhorn
                  > > To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:00 PM
                  > > Subject: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Today, the "Chicago Tribune" (page 24) reports
                  > that Richard Eller, a
                  > > Catawba Valley Community College history
                  > Professor, and Jerry
                  > > Goodnight, a retired schoolteacher, wrote a book
                  > "The Tarheel
                  > > Lincoln," which was released this year. The
                  > article states that the
                  > > book is the result of research of the claim that
                  > the 16th president
                  > > was born in Rutherford County, NC; an
                  > illegitimate son of a North
                  > > Carolinian named Abraham Enloe. This dispite the
                  > fact that tradition
                  > > has his birth on Feb. 12 1809 in Hardin County,
                  > KY.
                  > >
                  > > The "Trib" states that Eller and Goodnight
                  > thought there are phyical
                  > > resemblance between Lincoln and Enloe determined
                  > by comparing
                  > > photographs of the tall lanky men.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Pitt County Historical Society:
                  > http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                  > >
                  > > Submit your family for publication FREE in
                  > VOLUME II CHRONICALS
                  > earmarked for 2004/2005. Link here for detail
                  > instructions:
                  > >
                  >
                  http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/VolumeIIChronicles.htm
                  > >
                  > > RePrint of 1982 Chronicles of Pitt Co Order
                  > Form, limited supply:
                  >
                  http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
                  > >
                  > > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical
                  > Resources:
                  > http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
                  > >
                  > > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you
                  > to join our dynamic
                  > group if you are interested in genealogy discussion
                  > and research in Pitt and
                  > all Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                  > > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                  > > Research
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Pitt County Historical Society:
                  > http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                  > >
                  > > Submit your family for publication FREE in VOLUME
                  > II CHRONICALS earmarked
                  > for 2004/2005. Link here for detail instructions:
                  > >
                  >
                  http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/VolumeIIChronicles.htm
                  > >
                  > > RePrint of 1982 Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form,
                  > limited supply:
                  >
                  http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
                  > >
                  > > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical
                  > Resources:
                  > http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
                  > >
                  > > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to
                  > join our dynamic group
                  > if you are interested in genealogy discussion and
                  > research in Pitt and all
                  > Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                  > > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                  > > Research
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
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                • Cvbeck
                  Hey, Growing up, My Mom looked exactly like Loretta Lynn.................I looked like (1) Teenager- Marie Osmond, (2 & 3) 20 s - Pat Benetar and Sheena
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 9, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hey, Growing up, My Mom looked exactly like Loretta
                    Lynn.................I looked like (1) Teenager- Marie Osmond, (2 & 3)
                    20's - Pat Benetar and Sheena Easton. I like to sing...Where's the
                    Dough $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

                    HA HA HA!

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Carol Singh [mailto:csinghworthington@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 10:03 AM
                    To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Re: Abraham Lincoln's birth


                    Dear Marcia and group, I loved the photographic
                    evidence. I'm reminded of the Maury Povich show, which
                    has become a replication almost of Jerry Springer.
                    Many of the women are trying to prove their babies'
                    paternity using the justification that the baby "looks
                    just like" the man they think is the father, while the
                    men are saying the babies look nothing like them. Of
                    course the DNA results continue to prove that looks
                    fail the test more often than not. I'm reminded, too,
                    of all the rage about this and that look-alike
                    contests. Hey, maybe one of us could pass for Queen Elizabeth--we're too
                    young I think to claim title to being the Russian princess Anatasia.
                    Besides we'd have a hard time making any money off the Russian title,
                    but we might come into some change if we landed the British title.
                    Later, Carol
                    --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
                    wrote:
                    > Carol,
                    >
                    > You nailed it on the head! The article indicated
                    > that these researchers decided Abe's parentage by
                    > comparing photographs.
                    >
                    > WOW! In today's world of DNA testing, someone's
                    > going to prove parentage by comparing 150 year-old photographs.
                    > (Photography was just available in 1836).
                    >
                    > If Eller and Enloe statements were true, then
                    > Lincoln's mother, Nancy Hanks, was fooling around on
                    > her husband. The apparently well researched
                    > genealogical site I mentioned has Abe Lincoln as a
                    > middle child.
                    >
                    > Children of Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks are:
                    >
                    > i. Sarah Lincoln, born February 10, 1807 in
                    > Elizabethtown, Hardin County, KY.
                    > ii. Abraham Lincoln, born February 12, 1809 in
                    > family home, Sinking Spring Farm, near Hodgenville,
                    > Hardin Co (now Larue), KY.
                    > iii. Thomas Lincoln, born 1811 in Nolin Creek,
                    > Washington Co or possibly Hardin Co, KY.
                    >
                    >
                    > Of note - on FamilySearch I found these records of
                    > interest:
                    >
                    > Children of Abraham "Abram" ENLOE and Nancy HANKS
                    > are: Abraham ENLOE born12 FEB 1806 in Puzzle Creek,
                    > , Rutherford, NC.No dates or locations for the
                    > parents.
                    > Marriage of Abraham ENLOE (c1770 NC) to Sally
                    > EDGERTON (c1775 NC) 9 Jan 1795 in Rutherford Co, NC.
                    > Evidently both died after 1870.
                    >
                    > No Enloe's are in 1880 Census Rutherford County, NC
                    >
                    > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                    > * *
                    >
                    > I thought the article was interesting to all of us
                    > hard- researching individuals. Maybe we should just
                    > swap photos?
                    >
                    > Marcia
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Carol Singh <csinghworthington@...> wrote:
                    > Dear Group, I've just read an article on the
                    > paternity
                    > of Abraham Lincoln from the web. I found it by doing
                    > a
                    > search at http://www.Yahoo.com and searching
                    > "Abraham
                    > Lincoln's paternity." There on the first page was
                    > reference to the article by Ed Steers, "historian
                    > and
                    > Lincoln author," giving a rebuttal to the argument
                    > that his father was Abraham Enloe of Rutherford
                    > County, North Carolina. One problem college
                    > professors
                    > face is the pressure to publish. The best way to get recognition is to

                    > write about a controversial topic. Lincoln's paternity fits the bill.
                    > However,I am not saying that such motives influenced the book under
                    > discussion, only that whatever one writes on
                    > historical and genealogical subjects should be
                    > carefully researched and that even under the best of
                    > precautions, errors will creep in. I'd never heard
                    > of
                    > serious doubts being raised about Lincoln's
                    > paternity
                    > until now, so that shows my own
                    > knowledge deficit on the subject. The discussion
                    > drew
                    > my attention and interest, so I decided to check it
                    > out and report back what I learned if it might be of
                    > interest to our group. On a more personal note,
                    > quite
                    > a few people over the years said that my Uncle Mark
                    > looked like Abraham Lincoln, so learning that he
                    > might
                    > have been a Tarheel spiked my interest--perhaps
                    > Enloe
                    > might have been related to one or another of the
                    > families in our group. All his life, though, my
                    > uncle
                    > denied it. Instead, he claimed kinship to Ichabod
                    > Crane--he of the long arms and legs and hero of
                    > Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow."
                    > Later, Carol
                    > --- marcia_mclawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > To Nula,
                    > >
                    > > Your emails keep bouncing back to me. On
                    > 12/08/03,
                    > > I found at Trib
                    > > website after searching for "North Carolina"
                    > >
                    > > Item compiled from Tribune news services
                    > > Published December 7, 2003
                    > >
                    > > Book argues Lincoln born out of
                    > wedlock
                    > >
                    > > HICKORY, NORTH CAROLINA -- Investigating a topic
                    > > that has been taboo
                    > > for years, two North Carolina researchers believe
                    > > President Abraham
                    > > Lincoln may have been the illegitimate son of a
                    > > North Carolinian
                    > > named Abraham Enloe.
                    > >
                    > > In their book "The Tarheel Lincoln," released
                    > > earlier this year,
                    > > Catawba Valley Community College history professor
                    > > Richard Eller and
                    > > retired schoolteacher Jerry Goodnight research
                    > > decades-old claims
                    > > that the 16th president was born in Rutherford
                    > > County, about 60 miles
                    > > west of Charlotte.
                    > > Traditional claims that Lincoln was born Feb. 12,
                    > > 1809, in Hardin
                    > > County, Ky., are based on a statement written by
                    > > Lincoln a few months
                    > > before he was nominated to be president.
                    > >
                    > > Eller and Enloe base their argument on Lincoln's
                    > > North Carolina
                    > > origins on a physical resemblance between Lincoln
                    > > and Enloe, which
                    > > the authors noted by comparing photographs of the
                    > > tall, lanky men.
                    > >
                    > > Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > (Note error: 'Eller and Enlow' in last paragraph
                    > > should be 'Eller and
                    > > Goodnight' - the authors. Enlow lived in 1800's. -
                    > > Marcia).
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The article does not indicate a strong case, so I
                    > > used Google to
                    > > research good, olde Abe - see this sight search
                    > > critera was "Abraham
                    > > Lincoln's mother" selected:
                    > >
                    >
                    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6552/lincoln.htm
                    > >
                    > > Marcia
                    > >
                    >
                    ______________________________________________________________
                    > > >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:53:29 EST
                    > > >Subject: Abraham Lincoln
                    > >
                    > > >Marcia,
                    > > >
                    > > >I have had an interest in Abraham Lincoln's
                    > > heritage for some time.
                    > > >Were you able to copy the article and would it be
                    > > possible for you
                    > > >to send it to me. I went to the Tribune page but
                    > > was unable to get
                    > > >any results. Probably beyond my abilities on the
                    > > computer.
                    > > >
                    > > >Your help would be appreciated.
                    > > >
                    > > >Nula Tingleff
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________
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                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    > Pitt County Historical Society:
                    > http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                    >
                    > Submit your family for publication FREE in VOLUME II CHRONICALS
                    > earmarked for 2004/2005. Link here for detail instructions:
                    >
                    http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/VolumeIIChronicles.htm
                    >
                    >
                    > RePrint of 1982 Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form,
                    > limited supply:
                    >
                    http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.ht
                    m
                    >
                    === message truncated ===


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                    Pitt County Historical Society:
                    http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/

                    Submit your family for publication FREE in VOLUME II CHRONICALS
                    earmarked for 2004/2005. Link here for detail instructions:
                    http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/VolumeIIChronicles.htm

                    RePrint of 1982 Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form, limited supply:
                    http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.ht
                    m

                    Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources:
                    http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/

                    We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic
                    group if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt
                    and all Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties. GenealogyPITT Co NC
                    Friends In
                    Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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                  • linda bass
                    All in-coming and out-going mail is checked by Norton Anti-Virus ... From: Carol Singh To: Sent:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 9, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      All in-coming and out-going mail
                      is checked by Norton Anti-Virus
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Carol Singh" <csinghworthington@...>
                      To: <genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:45 PM
                      Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth

                      I personally found reading about the "who is/who isn't" Abe Lincoln parents
                      historically funny. Pun intended. I have been away from my computer for the
                      past 8 days and catching up on my reading about all that has been written
                      struck my funny bone in just the right places. Thanks for the chuckles. I
                      had never heard these storied before and can only imagine the fun someone
                      had writing about this tall lanky 16th president. Wouldn't it be great if
                      someone could/would exhume' the bodies and prove what' what's/who's who's? I
                      bet the DNA people would have a ball with this puzzle.
                    • Carol Singh
                      Dear Linda, I ve thought about exhuming a few to fulfill the prophecy from the t.v. program Unsolved Mysteries; You too can solve a mystery! Right! I can t
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 10, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Linda, I've thought about exhuming a few to
                        fulfill the prophecy from the t.v. program "Unsolved
                        Mysteries;" "You too can solve a mystery!" Right! I
                        can't wait! Of course, I might bite off more than I
                        can chew. When one starts digging, one never knows
                        what he will unearth. Still, I have a better reason
                        than "Father Abraham" as I call him. I have not been
                        able to find a marriage record for Jacky Ann McGowan,
                        my maternal great grandmother. My grandmother Jennie
                        Secession McGowan's father was her mother's cousin
                        William McGowan. The only problem is that she had four
                        cousins named William McGowan that I know of. Jennie
                        Secession McGowan and mother Jacky Ann McGowan were
                        living in the 1880 census in the household of Lemuel
                        McGowan,Sr. and Paulina (Perlina, Mama said her name
                        was)McGowan his wife--parents of Jacky Ann McGowan.
                        Jennie was listed as one-year old granddaughter.
                        Jennie's tombstone gives the birth as 1882 or 83 (I
                        forget which but a contradiction of the census
                        record). If any of you has the information that will
                        help me definitively solve this mystery, just think,
                        "You too can solve a mystery." Thanks, Carol
                        --- linda bass <Lou-BB@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > All in-coming and out-going mail
                        > is checked by Norton Anti-Virus
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Carol Singh" <csinghworthington@...>
                        > To: <genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:45 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Abraham Lincoln's birth
                        >
                        > I personally found reading about the "who is/who
                        > isn't" Abe Lincoln parents
                        > historically funny. Pun intended. I have been away
                        > from my computer for the
                        > past 8 days and catching up on my reading about all
                        > that has been written
                        > struck my funny bone in just the right places.
                        > Thanks for the chuckles. I
                        > had never heard these storied before and can only
                        > imagine the fun someone
                        > had writing about this tall lanky 16th president.
                        > Wouldn't it be great if
                        > someone could/would exhume' the bodies and prove
                        > what' what's/who's who's? I
                        > bet the DNA people would have a ball with this
                        > puzzle.
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Carol Singh
                        See what I mean? I wanted to be Dolly Parton myself. People tell me I have the look, but hey, the money (as you have pointed out) is in the voice. Why couldn t
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 10, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          See what I mean? I wanted to be Dolly Parton myself.
                          People tell me I have the look, but hey, the money (as
                          you have pointed out) is in the voice. Why couldn't I
                          have just had the voice? Later, Carol
                          --- Cvbeck <cvbeck@...> wrote:
                          > Hey, Growing up, My Mom looked exactly like Loretta
                          > Lynn.................I looked like (1) Teenager-
                          > Marie Osmond, (2 & 3)
                          > 20's - Pat Benetar and Sheena Easton. I like to
                          > sing...Where's the
                          > Dough $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                          >
                          > HA HA HA!
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Carol Singh
                          > [mailto:csinghworthington@...]
                          > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 10:03 AM
                          > To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Re: Abraham Lincoln's
                          > birth
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Marcia and group, I loved the photographic
                          > evidence. I'm reminded of the Maury Povich show,
                          > which
                          > has become a replication almost of Jerry Springer.
                          > Many of the women are trying to prove their babies'
                          > paternity using the justification that the baby
                          > "looks
                          > just like" the man they think is the father, while
                          > the
                          > men are saying the babies look nothing like them. Of
                          > course the DNA results continue to prove that looks
                          > fail the test more often than not. I'm reminded,
                          > too,
                          > of all the rage about this and that look-alike
                          > contests. Hey, maybe one of us could pass for Queen
                          > Elizabeth--we're too
                          > young I think to claim title to being the Russian
                          > princess Anatasia.
                          > Besides we'd have a hard time making any money off
                          > the Russian title,
                          > but we might come into some change if we landed the
                          > British title.
                          > Later, Carol
                          > --- Marcia McLawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Carol,
                          > >
                          > > You nailed it on the head! The article indicated
                          > > that these researchers decided Abe's parentage by
                          > > comparing photographs.
                          > >
                          > > WOW! In today's world of DNA testing, someone's
                          > > going to prove parentage by comparing 150 year-old
                          > photographs.
                          > > (Photography was just available in 1836).
                          > >
                          > > If Eller and Enloe statements were true, then
                          > > Lincoln's mother, Nancy Hanks, was fooling around
                          > on
                          > > her husband. The apparently well researched
                          > > genealogical site I mentioned has Abe Lincoln as a
                          > > middle child.
                          > >
                          > > Children of Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks are:
                          > >
                          > > i. Sarah Lincoln, born February 10, 1807 in
                          > > Elizabethtown, Hardin County, KY.
                          > > ii. Abraham Lincoln, born February 12, 1809 in
                          > > family home, Sinking Spring Farm, near
                          > Hodgenville,
                          > > Hardin Co (now Larue), KY.
                          > > iii. Thomas Lincoln, born 1811 in Nolin Creek,
                          > > Washington Co or possibly Hardin Co, KY.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Of note - on FamilySearch I found these records of
                          > > interest:
                          > >
                          > > Children of Abraham "Abram" ENLOE and Nancy HANKS
                          > > are: Abraham ENLOE born12 FEB 1806 in Puzzle
                          > Creek,
                          > > , Rutherford, NC.No dates or locations for the
                          > > parents.
                          > > Marriage of Abraham ENLOE (c1770 NC) to Sally
                          > > EDGERTON (c1775 NC) 9 Jan 1795 in Rutherford Co,
                          > NC.
                          > > Evidently both died after 1870.
                          > >
                          > > No Enloe's are in 1880 Census Rutherford County,
                          > NC
                          > >
                          > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                          > *
                          > > * *
                          > >
                          > > I thought the article was interesting to all of us
                          > > hard- researching individuals. Maybe we should
                          > just
                          > > swap photos?
                          > >
                          > > Marcia
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Carol Singh <csinghworthington@...> wrote:
                          > > Dear Group, I've just read an article on the
                          > > paternity
                          > > of Abraham Lincoln from the web. I found it by
                          > doing
                          > > a
                          > > search at http://www.Yahoo.com and searching
                          > > "Abraham
                          > > Lincoln's paternity." There on the first page was
                          > > reference to the article by Ed Steers, "historian
                          > > and
                          > > Lincoln author," giving a rebuttal to the argument
                          > > that his father was Abraham Enloe of Rutherford
                          > > County, North Carolina. One problem college
                          > > professors
                          > > face is the pressure to publish. The best way to
                          > get recognition is to
                          >
                          > > write about a controversial topic. Lincoln's
                          > paternity fits the bill.
                          > > However,I am not saying that such motives
                          > influenced the book under
                          > > discussion, only that whatever one writes on
                          > > historical and genealogical subjects should be
                          > > carefully researched and that even under the best
                          > of
                          > > precautions, errors will creep in. I'd never heard
                          > > of
                          > > serious doubts being raised about Lincoln's
                          > > paternity
                          > > until now, so that shows my own
                          > > knowledge deficit on the subject. The discussion
                          > > drew
                          > > my attention and interest, so I decided to check
                          > it
                          > > out and report back what I learned if it might be
                          > of
                          > > interest to our group. On a more personal note,
                          > > quite
                          > > a few people over the years said that my Uncle
                          > Mark
                          > > looked like Abraham Lincoln, so learning that he
                          > > might
                          > > have been a Tarheel spiked my interest--perhaps
                          > > Enloe
                          > > might have been related to one or another of the
                          > > families in our group. All his life, though, my
                          > > uncle
                          > > denied it. Instead, he claimed kinship to Ichabod
                          > > Crane--he of the long arms and legs and hero of
                          > > Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow."
                          > > Later, Carol
                          > > --- marcia_mclawhorn <marcia_mclawhorn@...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > To Nula,
                          > > >
                          > > > Your emails keep bouncing back to me. On
                          > > 12/08/03,
                          > > > I found at Trib
                          > > > website after searching for "North Carolina"
                          > > >
                          > > > Item compiled from Tribune news services
                          > > > Published December 7, 2003
                          > > >
                          > > > Book argues Lincoln born out of
                          > > wedlock
                          > > >
                          > > > HICKORY, NORTH CAROLINA -- Investigating a topic
                          > > > that has been taboo
                          > > > for years, two North Carolina researchers
                          > believe
                          > > > President Abraham
                          > > > Lincoln may have been the illegitimate son of a
                          > > > North Carolinian
                          > > > named Abraham Enloe.
                          > > >
                          > > > In their book "The Tarheel Lincoln," released
                          > > > earlier this year,
                          > > > Catawba Valley Community College history
                          > professor
                          > > > Richard Eller and
                          > > > retired schoolteacher Jerry Goodnight research
                          > > > decades-old claims
                          > > > that the 16th president was born in Rutherford
                          > > > County, about 60 miles
                          > > > west of Charlotte.
                          > > > Traditional claims that Lincoln was born Feb.
                          > 12,
                          > > > 1809, in Hardin
                          > > > County, Ky., are based on a statement written by
                          > > > Lincoln a few months
                          > > > before he was nominated to be president.
                          > > >
                          > > > Eller and Enloe base their argument on Lincoln's
                          > > > North Carolina
                          > > > origins on a physical resemblance between
                          > Lincoln
                          > > > and Enloe, which
                          > > > the authors noted by comparing photographs of
                          > the
                          >
                          === message truncated ===


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                        • tarheellincoln1
                          As one of the author s of the new book on Lincoln s paternity I would like to respond to some statements made here. First, our research is not based upon
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 3, 2004
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                            As one of the author's of the new book on Lincoln's paternity I would
                            like to respond to some statements made here. First, our research is
                            not based upon lookalikes alone. Though interesting, that kind of
                            evidence would never make an adequate case for Abraham Lincoln being
                            the son of anyone. If you check out the book you will find one full
                            chapter dedicated to the only real evidence that matters, DNA. Our
                            work has included that of a forensic pathologist who has been working
                            toward the goal of testing the Lincolns for a number of years. The
                            intent of the book is to begin discussion of this possibility so that
                            sources that now hold Lincoln DNA might be persuaded to allow some of
                            its usage to test this story which has been going around the
                            mountains of North Carolina for almost 200 years. Your critique of
                            the book baffles me. You take the same sort of "off the cuff"
                            position about our work as what you accuse of taking in our
                            research. I would suggest that you read the book and not the wire
                            service article before forming an opinion. I really don't intend to
                            be caustic about your previous statements, I would just rather have a
                            well informed discussion. That way, we all know what we are talking
                            about. Richard Eller
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________
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                          • Carol Singh
                            Sir, I myself take no pleasure in downing a book with or without examining it. When asked my opinion, I acknowledged not having read the book. Instead I read
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 3, 2004
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                              Sir, I myself take no pleasure in downing a book with
                              or without examining it. When asked my opinion, I
                              acknowledged not having read the book. Instead I read
                              critiques of the book, as our library does not own
                              your book. Based upon those and allowing that the
                              conclusions drawn were correct, then there followed
                              the opinion I expressed. With those reservations, I
                              prefaced my remarks. I doubt that any of us who are
                              interested in genealogy and in the combined fields of
                              genalogy and history would with malice aforethought
                              make light of your work or of your interest in
                              pursuing DNA evidence. While it would be rewarding to
                              have actual DNA support for your argument, to date it
                              does not exist--if I understand you correctly.
                              Therefore, you have put before us an interesting
                              hypothesis rather than proof--again if I understand
                              you correctly--and you would like to have the DNA
                              analysis to support your argument. Certainly such
                              evidence would be desirable, and I doubt that anyone
                              would dispute you on the subject. To date, though, we
                              don't have it, and we can only use what we do have. I
                              do not blame you for defending your work. Any of us
                              would do the same in your place. I sincerely hope that
                              whoever is in a position to provide you the DNA you
                              need to determine Lincoln's parentage does so--in the
                              interest of both history and science, if not in that
                              of simple human nature. In the meantime, pardon both
                              my humor and my reservations. We Tarheels are famous
                              for our laughter and our skepticism. Among us these
                              characteristics are the ties that bind. Please take
                              our remarks to each other in the vein in which they
                              were intended. None of us had the intention of
                              offending anyone. Carol
                              --- tarheellincoln1 <tarheellincoln1@...> wrote:
                              > As one of the author's of the new book on Lincoln's
                              > paternity I would
                              > like to respond to some statements made here.
                              > First, our research is
                              > not based upon lookalikes alone. Though
                              > interesting, that kind of
                              > evidence would never make an adequate case for
                              > Abraham Lincoln being
                              > the son of anyone. If you check out the book you
                              > will find one full
                              > chapter dedicated to the only real evidence that
                              > matters, DNA. Our
                              > work has included that of a forensic pathologist who
                              > has been working
                              > toward the goal of testing the Lincolns for a number
                              > of years. The
                              > intent of the book is to begin discussion of this
                              > possibility so that
                              > sources that now hold Lincoln DNA might be persuaded
                              > to allow some of
                              > its usage to test this story which has been going
                              > around the
                              > mountains of North Carolina for almost 200 years.
                              > Your critique of
                              > the book baffles me. You take the same sort of "off
                              > the cuff"
                              > position about our work as what you accuse of taking
                              > in our
                              > research. I would suggest that you read the book
                              > and not the wire
                              > service article before forming an opinion. I really
                              > don't intend to
                              > be caustic about your previous statements, I would
                              > just rather have a
                              > well informed discussion. That way, we all know
                              > what we are talking
                              > about. Richard Eller
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > __________________________________
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                              >
                              >
                              >


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