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Marriage

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  • Linda
    I have a question that I would like to ask the group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry outside her
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 26, 2003
      I have a question that I would like to ask the group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry outside her social and economic class? For instance if she was the daughter of a well to do family would she have been allowed to marry one of the farm hands?

      Linda


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Forbes
      Linda - I think you meant the 1700 s in your query... it s still a good question because it appears that most eastern NC families have traditionally been very
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 26, 2003
        Linda - I think you meant the 1700's in your query... it's still a good question because it appears that most eastern NC families have traditionally been very class-conscious, even until recently and (some would argue) the present day, using whatever social and economic clout they could to steer their children toward a goal of "marrying well." Even though this is still a time-honored tradition, not just in eastern NC but just about everywhere on the planet as far as I can tell, I think you'll find it's rules have been broken and bent about as far back as you can trace your ancestry, in America at least. Many of our American ancestors did not feel themselves bound by the tight social restrictions of the old country, but they had a hard time letting go of the class structure that had become so ingrained in the social fabric. So they tended to socialize only with families of the same class, thereby increasing their children's chances of meeting and courting someone from a family they knew and trusted. This often meant that the families were related in some way, and it resulted in a lot of cousin marriages, with the added benefit (often, the No. 1 benefit) of keeping land within the extended family.

        I think there have always been exceptions to the rule of marrying within social class in this country... probably the most common case is of the girl eloping with the boy who won her heart and starting life anew together somewhere else.... the country was so vast that it wasn't hard for a young couple to make a new start, for land on the frontier was often granted to the adventurous. Those who chose to stay closer to the home and the security of family bonds generally had to abide by the social customs, but even then the rules could be bent. There is a well-substantiated legend in our family of young Robert Forbes (1789-1845) who it is believed was an indentured servant on the farm of Noah Tison, Sr. Apparently the Tison (Tyson) family, who were English aristocrats, had paid ship's passage for either Robert Forbes (who was Scottish) or his father, so young Robert was working off the debt in the Tison household. One of the Tison girls fell in love with their young Scottish servant, and the family obviously consented, because Robert Forbes married Gracey Tison, then ended up running her parents' farm and gristmill, making it a profitable operation and acquiring more land, all while siring and raising 11 children together.

        So the case I've cited appears to come pretty close to answering your question, although the marriage between Robert Forbes and Gracey Tison happened a little later than the 1700's... about 1810 I think. I'm guessing that marriages between classes, for romance rather than for family wishes, happened a lot more often after the Rev. War, which was such an unprecedented event that it became the great equalizer of most everyone who survived and espoused the patriot cause. Prior to the Revolution, the rigid social standards of the English likely prevailed, and anyone who wasn't English in heritage was usually of lower class right off the bat. And I think we see many remnants of that old English aristocracy in eastern NC today.

        Bob Forbes
        bforbes@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Linda
        To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 6:48 PM
        Subject: [genpcncfir] Marriage


        I have a question that I would like to ask the group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry outside her social and economic class? For instance if she was the daughter of a well to do family would she have been allowed to marry one of the farm hands?

        Linda


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/

        We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic group if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
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      • Linda
        Thank you very much! That was pretty much what I was thinking also. I just needed a more information opinion. Linda ... From: Bob Forbes
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 27, 2003
          Thank you very much! That was pretty much what I was thinking also. I just
          needed a more information opinion.

          Linda
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bob Forbes" <bforbes@...>
          To: <genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:26 PM
          Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Marriage


          > Linda - I think you meant the 1700's in your query... it's still a good
          question because it appears that most eastern NC families have traditionally
          been very class-conscious, even until recently and (some would argue) the
          present day, using whatever social and economic clout they could to steer
          their children toward a goal of "marrying well." Even though this is still
          a time-honored tradition, not just in eastern NC but just about everywhere
          on the planet as far as I can tell, I think you'll find it's rules have been
          broken and bent about as far back as you can trace your ancestry, in America
          at least. Many of our American ancestors did not feel themselves bound by
          the tight social restrictions of the old country, but they had a hard time
          letting go of the class structure that had become so ingrained in the social
          fabric. So they tended to socialize only with families of the same class,
          thereby increasing their children's chances of meeting and courting someone
          from a family they knew and trusted. This often meant that the families were
          related in some way, and it resulted in a lot of cousin marriages, with the
          added benefit (often, the No. 1 benefit) of keeping land within the extended
          family.
          >
          > I think there have always been exceptions to the rule of marrying within
          social class in this country... probably the most common case is of the girl
          eloping with the boy who won her heart and starting life anew together
          somewhere else.... the country was so vast that it wasn't hard for a young
          couple to make a new start, for land on the frontier was often granted to
          the adventurous. Those who chose to stay closer to the home and the security
          of family bonds generally had to abide by the social customs, but even then
          the rules could be bent. There is a well-substantiated legend in our family
          of young Robert Forbes (1789-1845) who it is believed was an indentured
          servant on the farm of Noah Tison, Sr. Apparently the Tison (Tyson) family,
          who were English aristocrats, had paid ship's passage for either Robert
          Forbes (who was Scottish) or his father, so young Robert was working off the
          debt in the Tison household. One of the Tison girls fell in love with their
          young Scottish servant, and the family obviously consented, because Robert
          Forbes married Gracey Tison, then ended up running her parents' farm and
          gristmill, making it a profitable operation and acquiring more land, all
          while siring and raising 11 children together.
          >
          > So the case I've cited appears to come pretty close to answering your
          question, although the marriage between Robert Forbes and Gracey Tison
          happened a little later than the 1700's... about 1810 I think. I'm guessing
          that marriages between classes, for romance rather than for family wishes,
          happened a lot more often after the Rev. War, which was such an
          unprecedented event that it became the great equalizer of most everyone who
          survived and espoused the patriot cause. Prior to the Revolution, the rigid
          social standards of the English likely prevailed, and anyone who wasn't
          English in heritage was usually of lower class right off the bat. And I
          think we see many remnants of that old English aristocracy in eastern NC
          today.
          >
          > Bob Forbes
          > bforbes@...
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Linda
          > To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 6:48 PM
          > Subject: [genpcncfir] Marriage
          >
          >
          > I have a question that I would like to ask the group. In the 1700 was a
          young woman in NE NC allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry
          outside her social and economic class? For instance if she was the daughter
          of a well to do family would she have been allowed to marry one of the farm
          hands?
          >
          > Linda
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Click here for current information on Pitt County Historical Society:
          http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
          >
          > Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form:
          http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
          >
          > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources:
          http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
          >
          > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic
          group if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and
          all Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
          > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
          > Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Click here for current information on Pitt County Historical Society:
          http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
          >
          > Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form:
          http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
          >
          > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources:
          http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
          >
          > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic group
          if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all
          Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
          > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
          > Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Carol Singh
          Dear Bob, I don t know about y all, but I guess the Judds had it right: Love can build a bridge. When that bug bites, nations fall--a form of temporary
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 30, 2003
            Dear Bob, I don't know about y'all, but I guess the
            Judds had it right: "Love can build a bridge." When
            that bug bites, nations fall--a form of temporary
            insanity, at least. Still, I think that the rules may
            have been more to ensure that children born of the
            marriages were cared for rather than from strict class
            consciousness. Mama once said that the privilege of
            class was the privilege of pleasing yourself. She
            thought that the height of class. At the time, I
            thought what she said the height of shocking. I just
            couldn't believe what came out of her mouth sometimes!
            In a sense, she made me feel as if I were the parent.
            I cast many a glance over my shoulder after she
            launched one of her missiles to see who had overheard
            her lastest pronouncement! Later, Carol
            --- Bob Forbes <bforbes@...> wrote:
            > Linda - I think you meant the 1700's in your
            > query... it's still a good question because it
            > appears that most eastern NC families have
            > traditionally been very class-conscious, even until
            > recently and (some would argue) the present day,
            > using whatever social and economic clout they could
            > to steer their children toward a goal of "marrying
            > well." Even though this is still a time-honored
            > tradition, not just in eastern NC but just about
            > everywhere on the planet as far as I can tell, I
            > think you'll find it's rules have been broken and
            > bent about as far back as you can trace your
            > ancestry, in America at least. Many of our American
            > ancestors did not feel themselves bound by the tight
            > social restrictions of the old country, but they had
            > a hard time letting go of the class structure that
            > had become so ingrained in the social fabric. So
            > they tended to socialize only with families of the
            > same class, thereby increasing their children's
            > chances of meeting and courting someone from a
            > family they knew and trusted. This often meant that
            > the families were related in some way, and it
            > resulted in a lot of cousin marriages, with the
            > added benefit (often, the No. 1 benefit) of keeping
            > land within the extended family.
            >
            > I think there have always been exceptions to the
            > rule of marrying within social class in this
            > country... probably the most common case is of the
            > girl eloping with the boy who won her heart and
            > starting life anew together somewhere else.... the
            > country was so vast that it wasn't hard for a young
            > couple to make a new start, for land on the frontier
            > was often granted to the adventurous. Those who
            > chose to stay closer to the home and the security of
            > family bonds generally had to abide by the social
            > customs, but even then the rules could be bent.
            > There is a well-substantiated legend in our family
            > of young Robert Forbes (1789-1845) who it is
            > believed was an indentured servant on the farm of
            > Noah Tison, Sr. Apparently the Tison (Tyson)
            > family, who were English aristocrats, had paid
            > ship's passage for either Robert Forbes (who was
            > Scottish) or his father, so young Robert was working
            > off the debt in the Tison household. One of the
            > Tison girls fell in love with their young Scottish
            > servant, and the family obviously consented, because
            > Robert Forbes married Gracey Tison, then ended up
            > running her parents' farm and gristmill, making it a
            > profitable operation and acquiring more land, all
            > while siring and raising 11 children together.
            >
            > So the case I've cited appears to come pretty close
            > to answering your question, although the marriage
            > between Robert Forbes and Gracey Tison happened a
            > little later than the 1700's... about 1810 I think.
            > I'm guessing that marriages between classes, for
            > romance rather than for family wishes, happened a
            > lot more often after the Rev. War, which was such an
            > unprecedented event that it became the great
            > equalizer of most everyone who survived and espoused
            > the patriot cause. Prior to the Revolution, the
            > rigid social standards of the English likely
            > prevailed, and anyone who wasn't English in heritage
            > was usually of lower class right off the bat. And I
            > think we see many remnants of that old English
            > aristocracy in eastern NC today.
            >
            > Bob Forbes
            > bforbes@...
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Linda
            > To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 6:48 PM
            > Subject: [genpcncfir] Marriage
            >
            >
            > I have a question that I would like to ask the
            > group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC
            > allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry
            > outside her social and economic class? For instance
            > if she was the daughter of a well to do family would
            > she have been allowed to marry one of the farm
            > hands?
            >
            > Linda
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Click here for current information on Pitt County
            > Historical Society:
            > http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
            >
            > Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form:
            >
            >
            http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
            >
            > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical
            > Resources:
            > http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
            >
            > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to
            > join our dynamic group if you are interested in
            > genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all
            > Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
            > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
            > Research
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            > Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >


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          • Carol Singh
            Dear Linda, Among my immediate family, Yes. It wasn t so much about station in life as about character, industriousness, and the potential to be a good
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 30, 2003
              Dear Linda, Among my immediate family, "Yes." It
              wasn't so much about "station" in life as about
              character, industriousness, and the potential to be a
              good husband, father, and provider. In fact, if you
              examine the records, my ancestors on census records
              listed their own children and in-laws as "fieldhands,"
              "laborers," and "servants." If that did not put a
              child in his place, I don't know what it would take.
              Later, Carol
              --- Linda <lwillard@...> wrote:
              > I have a question that I would like to ask the
              > group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC
              > allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry
              > outside her social and economic class? For instance
              > if she was the daughter of a well to do family would
              > she have been allowed to marry one of the farm
              > hands?
              >
              > Linda
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • Linda
              Thanks! Linda ... From: Carol Singh To: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:48 PM Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 30, 2003
                Thanks!

                Linda
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Carol Singh" <csinghworthington@...>
                To: <genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:48 PM
                Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Marriage


                > Dear Linda, Among my immediate family, "Yes." It
                > wasn't so much about "station" in life as about
                > character, industriousness, and the potential to be a
                > good husband, father, and provider. In fact, if you
                > examine the records, my ancestors on census records
                > listed their own children and in-laws as "fieldhands,"
                > "laborers," and "servants." If that did not put a
                > child in his place, I don't know what it would take.
                > Later, Carol
                > --- Linda <lwillard@...> wrote:
                > > I have a question that I would like to ask the
                > > group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC
                > > allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry
                > > outside her social and economic class? For instance
                > > if she was the daughter of a well to do family would
                > > she have been allowed to marry one of the farm
                > > hands?
                > >
                > > Linda
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
                >
                >
                > Click here for current information on Pitt County Historical Society:
                http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                >
                > Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form:
                http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
                >
                > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources:
                http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
                >
                > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic group
                if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all
                Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                > Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Rhet Wilkinson
                It was widely believed that inheritance was THE important factor in a person back when. I have seen newspaper articles that my grandmother, born back in the
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 1, 2003
                  It was widely believed that inheritance was THE important factor in a person back when. I have seen newspaper articles that my grandmother, born back in the 1800s had cut out and saved. (Or maybe it as her mother) They felt that environment meant nothing. I remember my mother, born in 1917 saying that it was better to marry the black sheep of a "good family" rather than the outstanding member of a "not so good family". That way your children had a better chance of inheriting good traits rather than be a thow back to a family that was less than acceptable. But also remember that "good family" did not have anything to do with money in that particular mind set. You could be poor as a church mouse and still be "good family" Isn't it nice that we have learned to look a each person individually today rather than grouping them with others? Rhet
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Carol Singh
                  To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Marriage


                  Dear Linda, Among my immediate family, "Yes." It
                  wasn't so much about "station" in life as about
                  character, industriousness, and the potential to be a
                  good husband, father, and provider. In fact, if you
                  examine the records, my ancestors on census records
                  listed their own children and in-laws as "fieldhands,"
                  "laborers," and "servants." If that did not put a
                  child in his place, I don't know what it would take.
                  Later, Carol
                  --- Linda <lwillard@...> wrote:
                  > I have a question that I would like to ask the
                  > group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC
                  > allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to marry
                  > outside her social and economic class? For instance
                  > if she was the daughter of a well to do family would
                  > she have been allowed to marry one of the farm
                  > hands?
                  >
                  > Linda
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                  http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

                  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  ADVERTISEMENT




                  Click here for current information on Pitt County Historical Society: http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/

                  Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm

                  Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical Resources: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/

                  We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to join our dynamic group if you are interested in genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                  GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                  Research http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carol Singh
                  Dear Rhet, Yes indeed. After all, the parents of one s grandchildren can come back to haunt one in ways people sometimes never imagine. Children are little
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 4, 2003
                    Dear Rhet, Yes indeed. After all, the parents of one's
                    grandchildren can come back to haunt one in ways
                    people sometimes never imagine. Children are little
                    imitators. They will repeat what they see and hear at
                    home. I'd rather my children (now in their 30's) marry
                    someone as poor as Dick's hatband (as Mama put it) but
                    with a sterling character than to be poor in character
                    and as rich as King Juan Carlos. Later, Carol
                    --- Rhet Wilkinson <rhet@...> wrote:
                    > It was widely believed that inheritance was THE
                    > important factor in a person back when. I have seen
                    > newspaper articles that my grandmother, born back in
                    > the 1800s had cut out and saved. (Or maybe it as
                    > her mother) They felt that environment meant
                    > nothing. I remember my mother, born in 1917 saying
                    > that it was better to marry the black sheep of a
                    > "good family" rather than the outstanding member of
                    > a "not so good family". That way your children had
                    > a better chance of inheriting good traits rather
                    > than be a thow back to a family that was less than
                    > acceptable. But also remember that "good family"
                    > did not have anything to do with money in that
                    > particular mind set. You could be poor as a church
                    > mouse and still be "good family" Isn't it nice that
                    > we have learned to look a each person individually
                    > today rather than grouping them with others? Rhet
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Carol Singh
                    > To: genpcncfir@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:48 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [genpcncfir] Marriage
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Linda, Among my immediate family, "Yes." It
                    > wasn't so much about "station" in life as about
                    > character, industriousness, and the potential to
                    > be a
                    > good husband, father, and provider. In fact, if
                    > you
                    > examine the records, my ancestors on census
                    > records
                    > listed their own children and in-laws as
                    > "fieldhands,"
                    > "laborers," and "servants." If that did not put a
                    > child in his place, I don't know what it would
                    > take.
                    > Later, Carol
                    > --- Linda <lwillard@...> wrote:
                    > > I have a question that I would like to ask the
                    > > group. In the 1700 was a young woman in NE NC
                    > > allowed (unless it was a shotgun marriage) to
                    > marry
                    > > outside her social and economic class? For
                    > instance
                    > > if she was the daughter of a well to do family
                    > would
                    > > she have been allowed to marry one of the farm
                    > > hands?
                    > >
                    > > Linda
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
                    > design software
                    > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Click here for current information on Pitt County
                    > Historical Society:
                    > http://www.pittcountyhistoricalsociety.com/
                    >
                    > Chronicles of Pitt Co Order Form:
                    >
                    >
                    http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/Chronicles%20Flyer%20Feb03.htm
                    >
                    > Treasure-Trove of PITT Co.NC Genealogical
                    > Resources:
                    > http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nc/county/pitt/
                    >
                    > We welcome all Archives visitors and invite you to
                    > join our dynamic group if you are interested in
                    > genealogy discussion and research in Pitt and all
                    > Eastern and Coastal North Carolina counties.
                    > GenealogyPITT Co NC Friends In
                    > Research
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genpcncfir
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    > Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >


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