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Re: [GP] GA/GP and present industry market

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  • Khaled Ahsan Polin
    Hi, Yes, I did google but 90% of the entries are on academic research and experimentation on some toy problems. I was hoping to see some serious research in
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 30, 2008
      Hi,

      Yes, I did google but 90% of the entries are on academic research and experimentation on some toy problems. I was hoping to see some serious research in industry. Actually I am looking for some research jobs in industry. But when I put "Genetic Algorithm" or "Evolutionary Optimization", as key words in job sites, I see very small number of jobs from some small game companies. On the other hand, this result is totally different when I put "VLSI", "Data Mining", "Bioinformatics", "Grid Computing" etc.

      adil raja <adilraja@...> wrote:
      Hi,
      GA/GP are very strong optimization algorithms and have wider applicability than other much hyped machine learning algorithms, such as support vector machines and neural networks. One of the main advantages of these algorithms is that they can be tailored to a wider range of problem domains.

      Given alone the fact that these are optimization algorithms, they remain at the hub of multi-disciplinary research. Thus, it may also not be fair to compare them with VLSI, networking, www etc. Indeed, the applications of these algorithms have been to many problems, including the fields that you have mentioned. They may be thought of to be as "hammers". Once held, everything in the world starts to look like a "nail". To this end, slight googling may reveal the wide range of applications of these algorithms.

      Best regards,
      Adil Raja

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Khaled Ahsan Polin <polin_ruet@...>
      To: genetic_programming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:07:07 PM
      Subject: [GP] GA/GP and present industry market

      Hi all,

      I was wondering yet there is any real life application of GA/GP.
      At least in industry ? One of my friend told me that these "soft computing stuffs" are for science fiction enthusiasts? Is that true ?

      If not, then why don't we see big companies investing money on this research field ? But I am quite sure that GA/GP oriented market is much more smaller than other fields, (i.e. VLSI, Networking, WWW etc.).

      Actually what is the future ???

      jmerelo666 <jmerelo@geneura. ugr.es> wrote: Hi,

      > Fitness evaluation is usually the main drain on resources (for me at
      > least). This will always scale to the "speed" of the language you are
      > using. In any language you can use tricks to improve performance.
      In Perl
      > I've done a lot with PDL (a compiled-in matrix-crunching library),
      with good
      > results.

      That's true, but you can always call a program that evaluates fitness
      in the biggest number-cruncher you have at hand: farm it to another
      machine, code it it FORTRAN, whatever. That's true for any Perl, Java,
      Python, IO or Lua library you can think of. Or, if the language allows
      it (Perl does, and Java through JNI), interface your program with a
      module written in another language.

      My point is that there are not languages that are massively better
      than others when raw evolutionary computation performance is
      concerned. Which gives you freedom to code in whatever language you
      feel more comfortable with (yep, Visual Basic too). QED.

      > Probably the only fair way to benchmark different systems is to have
      each
      > author tune theirs to a suite of problems (text, floating point,
      logic etc)
      > and then have them run by a third party of a range of hardware and OS
      > platforms. Competition style. But that's never going to happen.

      But my hunch would be that, if it does, there's no free lunch. You
      earn something, you lose something.

      JJ

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
      A.K.M. Khaled Ahsan Talukder
      Postgraduate Research Student
      Department of Computer Science and Software Engineering( CSSE)
      University of Melbourne
      Room No 3.08, ICT Building, 111 Barry Street, Carlton
      Melbourne, Victoria 3053
      Australia

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • petermrossyg
      ... It s not true. In my experience -- in particular, I m thinking of non-academic events where I have had the opportunity to ask a large audience which of
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 31, 2008
        --- In genetic_programming@yahoogroups.com, Khaled Ahsan Polin
        <polin_ruet@...> wrote:


        > Hi all,
        >
        > I was wondering yet there is any real life application of GA/GP.
        > At least in industry ? One of my friend told me that these "soft
        > computing stuffs" are for science fiction enthusiasts? Is that true?
        >
        > If not, then why don't we see big companies investing money on this
        > research field? But I am quite sure that GA/GP oriented market is
        > much more smaller than other fields, (i.e. VLSI, Networking, WWW
        > etc.).
        >
        > Actually what is the future ???

        It's not true. In my experience -- in particular, I'm thinking of
        non-academic events where I have had the opportunity to ask a large
        audience "which of you have tried/used.." -- there are many users of
        GA/GP techniques for industrial/commercial problems.

        Why should we expect to see "big companies investing money on this
        research field"? If it works for them, they don't want to tell
        competitors about it. Publishing papers and bragging about technology
        costs time and effort, in many cases bringing dubious returns. A few
        companies that make their living by being able to do it better and
        faster for you than you can yourself, do have an incentive to shout
        about it. Most don't.

        As for what the future might hold, we all have our own views. But
        except for the few that earn their living by making oracular
        pronouncements, most people would rather try to create new stuff
        than to guess what others will be creating.

        Peter Ross
      • Mostafa Kalantar
        Hi, you shouldn t compare a specific branch of computational intelligence (CI) like GA/GP with technologies like WWW or VLSI which include a broad spectrum of
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 2, 2008
          Hi,
          you shouldn't compare a specific branch of computational intelligence (CI) like
          GA/GP with technologies like WWW or VLSI which include a broad spectrum of sub-technologies.
          In fact you can compare GA/GP with other CI/Machine Learning approaches like Neural
          Networks, Fuzzy Logic, or statistical methods like Support Vector Machines.

          Pay
          attention that Evolutionary Algorithms can be applied as an optimization tool
          in a variety of fields including WWW and VLSI, or as a machine learning method.

           

          For
          industrial case-studies see the books:

          1.     
          Soft
          Computing Applications in Industry , Springer

          2.     
          Intelligent Control Systems Using Soft
          Computing

          3.     
          Fusion of Neural Networks, Fuzzy Systems
          and Genetic Algorithms: Industrial Applications

          4.     
          Industrial Applications of Genetic
          Algorithms






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter Ross
          Hi [private reply], ... I think the issue is that genetic algorithms and evolutionary optimization are too specific; VLSI , Data Mining ,
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 3, 2008
            Hi [private reply],

            On Thursday 31 July 2008, Khaled Ahsan Polin wrote:

            > Yes, I did google but 90% of the entries are on academic research and
            > experimentation on some toy problems. I was hoping to see some serious
            > research in industry. Actually I am looking for some research jobs in
            > industry. But when I put "Genetic Algorithm" or "Evolutionary
            > Optimization", as key words in job sites, I see very small number of jobs
            > from some small game companies. On the other hand, this result is totally
            > different when I put "VLSI", "Data Mining", "Bioinformatics", "Grid
            > Computing" etc.

            I think the issue is that "genetic algorithms" and "evolutionary optimization"
            are too specific; "VLSI", "Data Mining", "Bioinformatics", "Grid Computing"
            are each broad categories. For example, if a company seeks someone with
            talents in data mining, they would expect good applicants to be knowledgeable
            about many computing techniques (including GAs, and maybe also GP), and also
            know a good deal about statistics, data processing and cleaning and so on.

            Companies are unlikely to advertise explicitly for expertise in GAs or
            evolutionary methods, they would usually seek someone who is also familiar
            with many other relevant techniques and who might have some sense of what's
            best to use in any given circumstance and so might advertise for talents in
            optimi[sz]ation, logistics, algorithm development and so on. Companies have to
            be careful what they claim to be wanting, because once employed the person
            has to be kept fed with work.

            Although many universities offer components of computing or engineering
            degrees that include significant stuff on evolutionary and bio-inspired
            methods, they are not necessarily good at producing what industry wants.
            It can be much easier and much cheaper to train several existing staff
            in bio-inspired methods, perhaps by getting a consultant in for a while, than
            to hire a new graduate and get them fitted into the company's working habits.
            Hiring a lone person purely for specialist knowledge not shared by those
            he/she will have to work alongside is often a recipe for discontent.

            Although a lot of source code is produced by universities, a lot of it
            is buggy and/or poorly documented and as such is not a great recommendation
            -- I should know, I produced some of that myself in 20+ years at Edinburgh
            University. It was a real eye-opener to observe that there were many grateful
            users of some of the GA software I wrote, but not one of them spotted some
            significant bugs that had been in the code for years before I noticed
            them :-(, or if they did they didn't mention them.

            Here is the most recent example I found in some public code produced by a
            university research team at a highly-rated research university. The aim
            of the fragment is to produce uniform-random permutations of 0..N-1; the
            fragment has been rewritten by me to simplify it and to protect the original
            author from shame:
            for(i=0; i<N; i++)
            a[i] = i; // a[] has been made big enough
            for(i=0; i<N; i++) {
            j = random(N); // uniform-random int in 0..N-1 inclusive
            if(i != j)
            swap(a[i], a[j]); // something that correctly
            // swaps the two values
            }
            See the problem? It's not obvious, but this produces a significantly
            biased sampling. I run a business, and I although I might mention
            GA/GP in some further particulars of a job advert, I would also care
            a lot about hiring someone who can avoid such mistakes. So I might look for
            someone with a broader outlook and with evidence of good practical skills,
            rather than trying specifically to target people looking for a job that
            involves GA/GP. I might want good people who know a bit about GA/GP, but
            that's probably not what I would say in an advert that I was wanting.

            Best wishes,

            Peter Ross
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