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Re:Using Allied Lines to Prove Parentage

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  • Joy Weaver
    Shannon, I don t think you can conclude that Martin Carpenter is William s father based on his having fathered John. The six-year difference between William
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 9, 2010
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      Shannon, I don't think you can conclude that Martin Carpenter is
      William's father based on his having fathered John. The six-year
      difference between William and John is a long time for such a
      relationship to have continued without marriage, I think. Martin would
      have been only 15 and Elizabeth 17 when William was born. It's not
      impossible, but seems less likely to me than that the father was someone
      older.

      In addition, Martin Carpenter does not seem to be in Mitchell Co. in
      1870, two years before William's birth. The only one in the right age
      group that I see was in Jacobs Fork, Catawba Co. in 1870. That doesn't
      mean he couldn't have moved to Yancey or Mitchell Co. in the next year
      or so, but it lessens the likelihood.

      Andrew Scoggins is only 16 in 1880, which rules him out.

      I found an Elizabeth Gouge about the right age in 1900 working as a
      servant for Mary Smith in Crabtree, Yancey Co. Is that the same Eliz?

      I also found Eliz's parents in 1850. Joel Gouge, age 25, and Susanna,
      age 19 are in Yancey Co. next door to Henry Norman, age 62, and wife,
      Elizabeth, 57, who likely are Susanna's parents.

      This doesn't bring us any closer to William's parentage, I'm afraid.

      Joy Weaver
      Islip, NY


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    • shannonlind
      Thanks for your thoughts. I tend to think the same way. I want hard proof or irrefutable circumstantial evidence before I accept the conclusions. At least
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 9, 2010
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        Thanks for your thoughts.

        I tend to think the same way. I want hard proof or irrefutable circumstantial evidence before I accept the conclusions. At least this gives me another possibility to research.

        Strangely enough, it sounds like certain lineage societies will accept (have accepted) "proof" exactly like this for admission!

        --Shannon

        --- In genealogyresearchclub@yahoogroups.com, cyb45@... wrote:
        >
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        > This is just  my opinion. I don't think you can say Williams father was Martin. The fact that
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        > Martin was Johns' father doesn't mean he was Williams' unfortunately. Unless you have some documented
        >
        > proof of his parentage I just don't think you can say they have the same father. I have some great grandfathers
        >
        > in my tree that have unknown fathers. Until I have proof, I can't add a father for them. It's really difficult when you have
        >
        > this situation.
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      • Rachel
        How do you manage to find these un-named babies? I would be interested in trying that on my Great Grandmother. Rachel I will not drink Greek Coffee at 9PM --
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 9, 2010
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          How do you manage to find these un-named babies? I would be interested in
          trying that on my Great Grandmother.

          Rachel

          I will not drink Greek Coffee at 9PM -- me
          "Everything about my family is strange." -- Miss. Parker
          How Much Trouble Could I Get Into.... - Me
          "This is my life Jackie, it�s not fun, it�s not smart, it�s just standing up
          and make a decision because no one else will� � The 9th Doctor
          "It is like Godzilla vs Bambi and we are Bambi" - Unknown person



          On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Mary Stewart <mary.stewart52@...>wrote:

          > Just my opinion ...
          > Sometimes I look for possible siblings to see who in the area was having
          > children in that time period in that area etc. Since sometimes births were
          > recorded before names were given to babies, sometimes I check out, if
          > possible, where & 'what' was born to couples in the area. If I can find an
          > un-named child, and know the birth date, etc, I try to follow he/she forward
          > ... sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't!
          > Mary
          >
          >
          > --- On Thu, 4/8/10, cyb45@... <cyb45@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: cyb45@... <cyb45@...>
          > Subject: [Genealogy Research Club] RE:Using Allied Lines to Prove Parentage
          > To: genealogyresearchclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 10:18 PM
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          > This is just my opinion. I don't think you can say Williams father was
          > Martin. The fact that
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          > Martin was Johns' father doesn't mean he was Williams' unfortunately.
          > Unless you have some documented
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          >
          >
          > proof of his parentage I just don't think you can say they have the same
          > father. I have some great grandfathers
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          > in my tree that have unknown fathers. Until I have proof, I can't add a
          > father for them. It's really difficult when you have
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          > this situation.
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          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Searching for your ancestry? You'll find great help at Ancestry.Com
          >
          > http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=5647408&siteid=18621718
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Mary Stewart
          Hi Rachel! It all depends on when & where your ancestor was born, and how much of that areas birth info is available on-line.  Before Birth Certs were
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 9, 2010
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            Hi Rachel!
            It all depends on when & where your ancestor was born, and how much of that areas birth info is available on-line.  Before Birth Certs were mandatory, it wasn't easy. 
            For my grandfather, I was lucky ... he was born in Missouri.  He was born in 1898, so there was just 'journal records' so to speak ... not actual certificates but record books ... but at least they were indexed on-line.
            Anyway, I tried searching using his first name (Alpheus), and last, but he wasn't there, so I just tried by his surname with a date range ... and there it was, with 'baby boy' as the name.
            If you'd like to give us any info you have on her, maybe we could help? 
            Mary


            --- On Fri, 4/9/10, Rachel <rachel.sibiosanchez@...> wrote:

            From: Rachel <rachel.sibiosanchez@...>
            Subject: Re: [Genealogy Research Club] RE:Using Allied Lines to Prove Parentage
            To: genealogyresearchclub@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, April 9, 2010, 5:14 PM

            How do you manage to find these un-named babies? I would be interested in
            trying that on my Great Grandmother.

            Rachel

            I will not drink Greek Coffee at 9PM -- me
            "Everything about my family is strange." -- Miss. Parker
            How Much Trouble Could I Get Into.... - Me
            "This is my life Jackie, it’s not fun, it’s not smart, it’s just standing up
            and make a decision because no one else will” – The 9th Doctor
            "It is like Godzilla vs Bambi and we are Bambi" - Unknown person



            On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Mary Stewart <mary.stewart52@...>wrote:

            > Just my opinion ...
            > Sometimes I look for possible siblings to see who in the area was having
            > children in that time period in that area etc.  Since sometimes births were
            > recorded before names were given to babies, sometimes I check out, if
            > possible, where & 'what' was born to couples in the area.  If I can find an
            > un-named child, and know the birth date, etc, I try to follow he/she forward
            > ... sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't!
            > Mary
            >
            >
            > --- On Thu, 4/8/10, cyb45@... <cyb45@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: cyb45@... <cyb45@...>
            > Subject: [Genealogy Research Club] RE:Using Allied Lines to Prove Parentage
            > To: genealogyresearchclub@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 10:18 PM
            >
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            > This is just  my opinion. I don't think you can say Williams father was
            > Martin. The fact that
            >
            >
            >
            > Martin was Johns' father doesn't mean he was Williams' unfortunately.
            > Unless you have some documented
            >
            >
            >
            > proof of his parentage I just don't think you can say they have the same
            > father. I have some great grandfathers
            >
            >
            >
            > in my tree that have unknown fathers. Until I have proof, I can't add a
            > father for them. It's really difficult when you have
            >
            >
            >
            > this situation.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Searching for your ancestry? You'll find great help at Ancestry.Com
            >
            > http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=5647408&siteid=18621718
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Searching for your ancestry? You'll find great help at Ancestry.Com

            http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=5647408&siteid=18621718


            Yahoo! Groups Links








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stacey Olsen
            I found this on www.findagrave.com
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 9, 2010
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              I found this on www.findagrave.com

              http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=gouge&GSfn=william&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSst=29&GScnty=1711&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=21264727
              &

              I tried searching the other names you had listed, but could not find any.

              Good luck with your search!
              Stacey Olsen



              On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 2:13 PM, shannonlind <sdlind@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              > What is the standard when using allied lines to prove parentage? I can
              > prove that my great great grandfather had a brother named John, but I can't
              > find anything proving their parents. I can prove who John's parents were,
              > though, by John's death certificate. Is that considered circumstantial proof
              > of William's parents???
              >
              > The story:
              >
              > My great great grandfather, William Gouge, must have had an interesting
              > childhood.
              > He was born shortly after the end of the Civil War on 20 October 1871 in
              > Snow Creek, Mitchell County, North Carolina. Death certificate Snow Creek is
              > a very rural area of Western North Carolina situated at the foot of a 3600'
              > peak and all but surrounded by the Pisgah National Forest. In the 19th
              > century, it would have been very isolated.
              >
              > William's mother, Elizabeth Gouge, was one of eight children born to Joel
              > Gouge and Susannah Norman. Seemingly, Elizabeth was born and lived in the
              > same rural area of Mitchell County.
              >
              > The first time that I find William Gouge in the census is 1880. At the time
              > he was living with his mother and his six-year old brother, John. Also
              > living in the household is Andrew Scoggins. Obviously, it was a hard life.
              > Elizabeth is the head of the household and searching has not turned up any
              > marriage records and there are no records of her sons' births. She's listed
              > as a paupoor [sic] on the census. She died sometime after 1900 and no record
              > of her death has been found�it's possible that her family couldn't afford a
              > burial.
              >
              > William continued to live in Mitchell and Yancey Counties of North
              > Carolina. He grew up, married, and had a family. He died on 27 June 1927 in
              > Spruce Pine, Mitchell County. Unfortunately, his death certificate lists
              > both of his parents as unknown. This has been a dead-end (no pun intended!)
              > for William's father's line for years�until I was recently contacted by a
              > long-lost cousin who was also researching the Gouge line. Seems she hails
              > from William's brother, John. Over the course of his life John moved to and
              > died in Alabama. His death certificate states that his mother's name is
              > Bessie Googe [sic] and his father is Martin Carpenter.
              >
              > The best part? Martin Carpenter and his wife and child were Elizabeth
              > Gouge's next door neighbor in the 1880 census! It's a soap opera!
              >
              >
              >


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