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(gaykingdom] OPEN-HEARTED APOLOGIZE TO BILL FREEMAN from Vicky

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  • Jayson DiCotignano
    I am not a fan of censorship unless there is no alternative because more harm comes from allowing the individual to stay then good. However, if you have have
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 31, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I am not a fan of censorship unless there is no alternative because more harm comes from allowing the individual to stay then good.  However, if you have have noticed a member or several members missing because of a drop of numbers, could it not be from individuals withdrawing themselves as opposed to being removed by a moderator?  Just food for thought from a different perspective!

      Jayson


      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: [SPAM] [gaykingdom] OPEN-HEARTED APOLOGIZE TO BILL FREEMAN
      from Vicky
      From: "Viktor Zimmermann" <sekretariat@...>
      Date: Mon, January 31, 2005 2:49 pm
      To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com

      Bill,

      I posted a public message today, because I haven't received any
      private answer from you to this subject - wherever it got lost. I am
      VERY sorry, this was not intended then to go THIS way. Jaix was banned
      without any notification to others and he asked me for help. I sent
      separate mails to Ron and to you with request to take care of this
      subject, and on receiving no answers I decided to post a message on
      the board. The private mail I have written to you included a sentence
      that I beg you to explain your view of the matter, before I post some
      wild accusations on the message board. This is the common procedure
      and I am sorry I made wrong conclusions upon receiving no answer. I
      should have asked once mor for safety, my failure. I would appreciate
      you to send me your mail once again, so I can make an opinion.

      The only reason why I adressed you personally in my post was because
      you are the owner of the group, so who else should I blame? I'm sorry
      I hit the wrong one.

      As you made it clear, that baning of Jaix was NOT YOUR initiative, I
      OPEN-HEARTED APOLOGIZE FOR PUTTING YOU INTO WRONG LIGHT.

      My post was not intended to make you personally responsible of
      censoreship, but make sure that members are treated equally and their
      rights are respected. Therefore the moderator responsible for that
      action should feel adressed by my questions, they are not meant to be
      offending.

      As to missing members: I do not know each of them by the name, but
      overnight (night here in Germany) we went from 311 to 302 members, and
      taking the case of Jaix into account I was alarmed. If all of them
      were spammers or did withdrow by theit own wills, everything is fine
      and no one is angry to anyone.

      Again, do not feel offended, my intensions were good and I appreciate
      your work very much, even if I have different opinion at a lot of
      subjects. As to my program, everyone who joins the Responsible
      Developement Party is welcomed to discuss the form and content of the
      party general program, as well my personal program which is still
      appointed as being preliminary in the hope, people will make
      reasonable suggestions to topics which they believe to be important.
      There is also place for other candidates to present their programs and
      views on the same conditions.

      Regards,

      Vicky

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/progressors_glk

      --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "William J. Freeman" <wjf@b...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Vicky,
      >
      > When did you post your email to me of yesterday, VIcky?  I'm not
      asking to
      > humiliate or ridicule, but I'd have
      > liked to think I'd have a couple days before having to deal with any
      public
      > chastisements from the people we
      > are trying to serve.  Perhaps I expect too much.
      >
      > I did respond to your message this morning, about 6am my time when I
      > received it, to your private email.  I
      > replied directly to you, and copied the person who removed Brooks,
      and
      > suggested you speak with that
      > moderator.  When I get home, I'll resend that email again - but I
      will
      > verify with the other people I copied
      > that they got their copy of the original email.
      >
      > It might serve you to be a bit slower to draw unfounded conclusions
      in the
      > future, and to be more certain of the
      > facts before making public statements that aren't true. If I am
      mistaken, I
      > apologize, but I was not at
      > all involved in censuring Brooks. I'd appreciate your public apology
      to the
      > extent that you have publicly stated
      > otherwise.
      >
      > With regard to what constitutes a misstatement in an application,
      please let
      > the people who handle applications
      > do their jobs.  If not, please come to Alabama and assist me in this
      work.
      > I promise I'll make room for you. If
      > you're working on the apps, and you make a decision, would you like
      me to
      > support you in your reasonable
      > decisions or let this group decide if you acted rightly?  Do you get
      my
      > point?  Those of us who are building
      > this project, for better or worse, do have a better view of what is
      > happening.  Until that can be made more
      > transparent, which we are working very hard to do, I think a bit of
      > deference in the task might be a reasonable
      > thing to expect.
      >
      > Who, besides Brooks, are we missing?  You said we are missing a
      couple. Who
      > are the couple you think are
      > missing?
      >
      > One final word - I'm sorry if you rubbed the bottle and for whatever
      reason
      > you didn't think I came out of it
      > fast enough.  Some genies do hobble a bit, and we aren't bashful
      that we're
      > slow - but we do try to be careful.
      >
      > -Bill Freeman
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Viktor Zimmermann [mailto:sekretariat@v...]
      > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 2:56 PM
      > To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [gaykingdom] Missing Members of this group
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello my follow citizens of the GLK,
      >
      > as you possibly have already realized, we are missing a couple of
      our
      > group members. E.g. Jaix Broox seems not to be listed on the
      member's
      > area, and indeed he informed me that he was banned from this group.
      I
      > asked Bill yesterday to comment the topic in a private mail, an
      answer
      > still missing. I'm sure, Bill or other moderator will have a good
      > explanation for such activities and maybe rethink their decision. If
      > controversal discussion is not welcome at this board, please say it
      > properly, change the group settings to "messages can be posted only
      by
      > group owner and moderators" and we will continue our discussions on
      > the political discussion forum. But why ban unconvenient members and
      > prevent them from voting? What kind of justice is this? If Jaix put
      > wrong adress or wrong name on his application, you can ban him and I
      > will never talk about this topic again. But if his only mistake is
      > giving a "000-000-00000" for the telephone number, he must not be
      > excluded from elections. Besides, we should handle the personal data
      > of our applicants VERY carefully and never make them public without
      > their consent.
      >
      > Those of you who are interested what Jaix thinks about this subject,
      > should look onto the GLK's political discussion forum:
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/glkpolitics
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Vicky
      >






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    • James Nunn
      And don t forget teh bounce factor. Yahoo Groups manages bounces in a good/bad way. When a message bounces, or takes too long to get somewhere, the email
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 1, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        And don't forget teh bounce factor. Yahoo Groups manages bounces in a
        good/bad way. When a message bounces, or takes too long to get
        somewhere, the email address is moved from "active" members to
        "bouncing members." This is often overlooked by list managers (I
        manage a few and get questions like this "why did our list drop from
        such-and-such to such-and-such?"). Also, under the membership options
        (for moderators/owners) everything is logged, so if someone needs to
        find out what happened to so-and-so, then they can look there.

        Regards,
        James


        On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:59:08 -0700, Jayson DiCotignano
        <president@...> wrote:
        > I am not a fan of censorship unless there is no alternative because more
        > harm comes from allowing the individual to stay then good. However, if you
        > have have noticed a member or several members missing because of a drop of
        > numbers, could it not be from individuals withdrawing themselves as opposed
        > to being removed by a moderator? Just food for thought from a different
        > perspective!
        >
        >
        >
        > Jayson
        >
        > -------- Original Message --------
        > Subject: [SPAM] [gaykingdom] OPEN-HEARTED APOLOGIZE TO BILL FREEMAN
        > from Vicky
        > From: "Viktor Zimmermann" <sekretariat@...>
        > Date: Mon, January 31, 2005 2:49 pm
        > To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Bill,
        >
        > I posted a public message today, because I haven't received any
        > private answer from you to this subject - wherever it got lost. I am
        > VERY sorry, this was not intended then to go THIS way. Jaix was banned
        > without any notification to others and he asked me for help. I sent
        > separate mails to Ron and to you with request to take care of this
        > subject, and on receiving no answers I decided to post a message on
        > the board. The private mail I have written to you included a sentence
        > that I beg you to explain your view of the matter, before I post some
        > wild accusations on the message board. This is the common procedure
        > and I am sorry I made wrong conclusions upon receiving no answer. I
        > should have asked once mor for safety, my failure. I would appreciate
        > you to send me your mail once again, so I can make an opinion.
        >
        > The only reason why I adressed you personally in my post was because
        > you are the owner of the group, so who else should I blame? I'm sorry
        > I hit the wrong one.
        >
        > As you made it clear, that baning of Jaix was NOT YOUR initiative, I
        > OPEN-HEARTED APOLOGIZE FOR PUTTING YOU INTO WRONG LIGHT.
        >
        > My post was not intended to make you personally responsible of
        > censoreship, but make sure that members are treated equally and their
        > rights are respected. Therefore the moderator responsible for that
        > action should feel adressed by my questions, they are not meant to be
        > offending.
        >
        > As to missing members: I do not know each of them by the name, but
        > overnight (night here in Germany) we went from 311 to 302 members, and
        > taking the case of Jaix into account I was alarmed. If all of them
        > were spammers or did withdrow by theit own wills, everything is fine
        > and no one is angry to anyone.
        >
        > Again, do not feel offended, my intensions were good and I appreciate
        > your work very much, even if I have different opinion at a lot of
        > subjects. As to my program, everyone who joins the Responsible
        > Developement Party is welcomed to discuss the form and content of the
        > party general program, as well my personal program which is still
        > appointed as being preliminary in the hope, people will make
        > reasonable suggestions to topics which they believe to be important.
        > There is also place for other candidates to present their programs and
        > views on the same conditions.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Vicky
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/progressors_glk
        >
        > --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "William J. Freeman" <wjf@b...>
        > wrote:
        > > Hi Vicky,
        > >
        > > When did you post your email to me of yesterday, VIcky? I'm not
        > asking to
        > > humiliate or ridicule, but I'd have
        > > liked to think I'd have a couple days before having to deal with any
        > public
        > > chastisements from the people we
        > > are trying to serve. Perhaps I expect too much.
        > >
        > > I did respond to your message this morning, about 6am my time when I
        > > received it, to your private email. I
        > > replied directly to you, and copied the person who removed Brooks,
        > and
        > > suggested you speak with that
        > > moderator. When I get home, I'll resend that email again - but I
        > will
        > > verify with the other people I copied
        > > that they got their copy of the original email.
        > >
        > > It might serve you to be a bit slower to draw unfounded conclusions
        > in the
        > > future, and to be more certain of the
        > > facts before making public statements that aren't true. If I am
        > mistaken, I
        > > apologize, but I was not at
        > > all involved in censuring Brooks. I'd appreciate your public apology
        > to the
        > > extent that you have publicly stated
        > > otherwise.
        > >
        > > With regard to what constitutes a misstatement in an application,
        > please let
        > > the people who handle applications
        > > do their jobs. If not, please come to Alabama and assist me in this
        > work.
        > > I promise I'll make room for you. If
        > > you're working on the apps, and you make a decision, would you like
        > me to
        > > support you in your reasonable
        > > decisions or let this group decide if you acted rightly? Do you get
        > my
        > > point? Those of us who are building
        > > this project, for better or worse, do have a better view of what is
        > > happening. Until that can be made more
        > > transparent, which we are working very hard to do, I think a bit of
        > > deference in the task might be a reasonable
        > > thing to expect.
        > >
        > > Who, besides Brooks, are we missing? You said we are missing a
        > couple. Who
        > > are the couple you think are
        > > missing?
        > >
        > > One final word - I'm sorry if you rubbed the bottle and for whatever
        > reason
        > > you didn't think I came out of it
        > > fast enough. Some genies do hobble a bit, and we aren't bashful
        > that we're
        > > slow - but we do try to be careful.
        > >
        > > -Bill Freeman
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Viktor Zimmermann [mailto:sekretariat@v...]
        > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 2:56 PM
        > > To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [gaykingdom] Missing Members of this group
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hello my follow citizens of the GLK,
        > >
        > > as you possibly have already realized, we are missing a couple of
        > our
        > > group members. E.g. Jaix Broox seems not to be listed on the
        > member's
        > > area, and indeed he informed me that he was banned from this group.
        > I
        > > asked Bill yesterday to comment the topic in a private mail, an
        > answer
        > > still missing. I'm sure, Bill or other moderator will have a good
        > > explanation for such activities and maybe rethink their decision. If
        > > controversal discussion is not welcome at this board, please say it
        > > properly, change the group settings to "messages can be posted only
        > by
        > > group owner and moderators" and we will continue our discussions on
        > > the political discussion forum. But why ban unconvenient members and
        > > prevent them from voting? What kind of justice is this? If Jaix put
        > > wrong adress or wrong name on his application, you can ban him and I
        > > will never talk about this topic again. But if his only mistake is
        > > giving a "000-000-00000" for the telephone number, he must not be
        > > excluded from elections. Besides, we should handle the personal data
        > > of our applicants VERY carefully and never make them public without
        > > their consent.
        > >
        > > Those of you who are interested what Jaix thinks about this subject,
        > > should look onto the GLK's political discussion forum:
        > >
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/glkpolitics
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Vicky
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gaykingdom/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > gaykingdom-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        --
        james d. nunn
        jdnunn@...
      • William J. Freeman
        On top of all that, it isn t like we have had any training on these things either. I guess we re all doing the best we can. ... From: James Nunn
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 1, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          On top of all that, it isn't like we have had any training on these things either.
           
          I guess we're all doing the best we can.
          -----Original Message-----
          From: James Nunn [mailto:jdnunn@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:28 AM
          To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] (gaykingdom] OPEN-HEARTED APOLOGIZE TO BILL FREEMAN from Vicky

          And don't forget teh bounce factor. Yahoo Groups manages bounces in a
          good/bad way. When a message bounces, or takes too long to get
          somewhere, the email address is moved from "active" members to
          "bouncing members."  This is often overlooked by list managers (I
          manage a few and get questions like this "why did our list drop from
          such-and-such to such-and-such?").  Also, under the membership options
          (for moderators/owners) everything is logged, so if someone needs to
          find out what happened to so-and-so, then they can look there.

          Regards,
          James
           

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