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Re: [gaykingdom] Re: a gay nation, another point....

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  • ridgeet roy
    Cant we start with from a small town or city ? Donald Kirby wrote: Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
      Cant we start with from a small town or city ?

      Donald Kirby <kndmgck@...> wrote:
      Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is ready to do as the founding fathers of  almost every other nation on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to such a thing. It might muss our hair.
          Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is reality, it is history, it is the Truth.

      Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@...> wrote:
      Steff,

      you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never dared.
      The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
      believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
      development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing: from "I
      hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-man
      show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and you
      will certainly find some interesting articles.

      Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors in
      the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to do
      next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most people
      are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their support
      drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of official
      documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
      participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real must
      be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody else
      making the next step.

      Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are trapped in
      our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents behold
      right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
      misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
      about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
      could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not through
      our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.

      However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose that
      the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
      organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the gay
      self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
      "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:

      http://forum.gayhomeland.org

      There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such, now
      independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum is
      open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly bound to
      only republican supporters.

      I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
      attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
      just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively interested
      in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.

      We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed and
      we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
      What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
      within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice to "declare
      independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as our
      property.

      Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's talk
      about the enterprise like grown-ups.

      Viktor Zimmermann







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      Rij
       
       


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    • someonenotfamous
      Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who caused much damage to the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
        Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You
        were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who
        caused much damage to the kingdom and formed the breakaway republic
        group, you then posted lies and rumour on your gat republic web site
        that resulted in HIM Dale taking legal action against you and you
        had to remove the offending information, you have also had to endure
        other legal threats against you by members of your own republic
        group such as Gunther and his recent threat of suing you, so maybe
        you should take a look at yourself before lectuing others.

        Sally

        --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "Viktor Zimmermann"
        <viktor.zimmermann@g...> wrote:
        >
        > Steff,
        >
        > you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never
        dared.
        > The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
        > believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
        > development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing:
        from "I
        > hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-
        man
        > show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and
        you
        > will certainly find some interesting articles.
        >
        > Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors
        in
        > the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to
        do
        > next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most
        people
        > are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their
        support
        > drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of
        official
        > documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
        > participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real
        must
        > be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody
        else
        > making the next step.
        >
        > Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are
        trapped in
        > our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents
        behold
        > right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
        > misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
        > about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
        > could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not
        through
        > our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.
        >
        > However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose
        that
        > the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
        > organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the
        gay
        > self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
        > "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:
        >
        > http://forum.gayhomeland.org
        >
        > There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such,
        now
        > independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum
        is
        > open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly
        bound to
        > only republican supporters.
        >
        > I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
        > attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
        > just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively
        interested
        > in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.
        >
        > We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed
        and
        > we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
        > What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
        > within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice
        to "declare
        > independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as
        our
        > property.
        >
        > Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's
        talk
        > about the enterprise like grown-ups.
        >
        > Viktor Zimmermann
        >
      • someonenotfamous
        Donald, blood does not have to be shed, the Coral Sea Islands were chosen by the Gay activists because they are an uninhabited external territory/colony of
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
          Donald, blood does not have to be shed, the Coral Sea Islands were
          chosen by the Gay activists because they are an uninhabited external
          territory/colony of Australia. This means under international law
          and the Charter of the United Nations and the Constituion of
          Australia as an External Overseas Territory the UN Law of "All
          external Territories have a right to self government and self
          determination" applies. The Coral Sea Islands as a territory has
          the same legal standing in the world as say Gibralter does to
          England or Tahiti does to France and under International law must be
          allowed to Self determine, it has its own United Nations country
          code of CR and is intitled to its own top level domain if it becomes
          inhapited. So the Aussies gays and lesbians who raised the rainbow
          flaf there were certainly onto something

          Sally

          --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kirby <kndmgck@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
          land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly
          gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way
          to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if
          people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed
          cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not
          just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is
          ready to do as the founding fathers of almost every other nation
          on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can
          whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most
          of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can
          pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has
          shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even
          the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we
          who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to
          > such a thing. It might muss our hair.
          > Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is
          reality, it is history, it is the Truth.
          >
          > Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@g...> wrote: Steff,
          >
          > you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never
          dared.
          > The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
          > believed, and there were always less or more active phases in
          the
          > development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing:
          from "I
          > hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-
          man
          > show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google
          and you
          > will certainly find some interesting articles.
          >
          > Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most
          actors in
          > the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what
          to do
          > next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most
          people
          > are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their
          support
          > drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of
          official
          > documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
          > participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real
          must
          > be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for
          somebody else
          > making the next step.
          >
          > Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are
          trapped in
          > our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents
          behold
          > right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
          > misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows:
          it's
          > about the ability to accept differences of political views. If
          we
          > could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not
          through
          > our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.
          >
          > However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose
          that
          > the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
          > organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss
          the gay
          > self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into
          the
          > "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:
          >
          > http://forum.gayhomeland.org
          >
          > There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such,
          now
          > independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The
          forum is
          > open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly
          bound to
          > only republican supporters.
          >
          > I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
          > attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum.
          It's
          > just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively
          interested
          > in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.
          >
          > We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE
          failed and
          > we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next
          try.
          > What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
          > within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice
          to "declare
          > independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as
          our
          > property.
          >
          > Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's
          talk
          > about the enterprise like grown-ups.
          >
          > Viktor Zimmermann
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Viktor Zimmermann
          Dear Sally, what s your definition for troublemaker ? If this is somebody who is asking too many questions, which other people are unwilling to answer
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 27, 2006
            Dear Sally,

            what's your definition for "troublemaker"? If this is somebody who is
            asking too many questions, which other people are unwilling to answer
            honestly, so yes - I am. I love asking questions.

            Indeed, upon I began asking questions, some other people began to do
            alike. The answers were not satisfying - you can't seriously blame ME
            for this? The "gayrepublic group" was formed by individuals, who have
            left this group by free pieces anyway, or were urged to leave. I never
            was telling the world anything more, than Mr. Freeman and Mr. Peréz
            are telling now as well (see gaykingdom.org) - just a couple of
            monthes earlier. And, if you please, what have I to do with the final
            break-up between Mr. Anderson and the rest of his kingdom? No, dear -
            it was a logical consequence, and most of the troubles were caused by
            Mr. Anderson himself - he proved to be extremely gifted in loosing
            trust from many good people, who at beginning took this project
            seriously and invested lots of time and work into it.

            Now to my own business, upon request. Well, a "recent threat of suing"
            from Gunnar? Not at all recent and, no offense - Gunnar talks lot of
            things when he is angry. ;D You can ask him if you wish - he is member
            of this group. As for "lies and rumor" you should check the "Gayzette"
            in this group's file section (with official apologize from "HIM Dale"
            for fraudulent pictures on the old website), as well as the new
            gaykingdom.org website - obviously, in the meanwhile Dale is the only
            one who believes the very fairytales he told us 1 year ago. Our
            website was changed 3 monthes after the conflict with Dale and this
            occasion had nothing to do with him or his "legal actions". I hope
            this helps.

            Generally, it is nothing dishonest or compromizing to be sued by
            certain people - it only indicates that one has crossed their
            interests in some way. And, no offense - Dale would have had his
            reasons to actually NOT going to the court - his chances to win the
            threatend lawsuit were not that good, I guess.

            Semper Augustus,

            Vicky :)

            --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "someonenotfamous"
            <someonenotfamous@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You
            > were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who
            > caused much damage to the kingdom and formed the breakaway republic
            > group, you then posted lies and rumour on your gat republic web site
            > that resulted in HIM Dale taking legal action against you and you
            > had to remove the offending information, you have also had to endure
            > other legal threats against you by members of your own republic
            > group such as Gunther and his recent threat of suing you, so maybe
            > you should take a look at yourself before lectuing others.
            >
            > Sally
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